• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured 2 people in heaven question

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by Theokayman1, Dec 10, 2018.

  1. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

    +305
    United States
    Apostolic
    Single
    Do you believe the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus to be a literal event that took place? Or is it a figurative example of the Afterlife and people's place in it?
     
  2. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    +10,498
    Christian
    Married
    How fictional can it be and yet be relevant to anything? I think if we remove the aspect of the rich man understanding why he's there, it no longer has any relevance as a parable.

    Nor did Jesus mention this as the response to the question of "which husband will the widow have in heaven?" He gave as the reason that there won't be marriage in heaven--when He could have said there would be no memory of the former life in heaven.
     
  3. Valetic

    Valetic Addicted to CF Supporter

    822
    +536
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    I don't know for certain what awaits us in the afterlife other than the presence of God. And I don't much care to meet anyone there other than God. If it's possible to though, there would be nothing to worry about because of the presence of God and the perfect fellowship therein. Some people just don't see it the way I do, some people still want humanly tangible things to be waiting for us, like eating food and playing music and so on. Possibly spending time with loved ones that did make it to the other side. I just don't see it that way. Sure I love my loved ones here now, but I'm sure nothing will compare to the immeasurable joy and peace we will receive when we meet him face to face when we depart from this dimension. I'm sorry this doesn't exactly answer your question but who really is to say for sure?
     
  4. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

    +38,040
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Again, Hell is described as a place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth", where there is, "no rest day or night" for the people who live there, and where the "smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever". (Revelation 14:11)

    It sure doesn't sound like it becomes bearable or normal for any of them, because things like weeping and gnashing of teeth would surely stop if the conditions there became normal for them, wouldn't it? (especially if those in Hell truly came to believe they were, "living the good life", yes?)

    Thanks!

    --David
     
  5. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

    +1,351
    United States
    Charismatic
    Married
    True Forgiveness is forgetting.

    What Chris has expressed is not forgiveness, at the Great White thrown Judgement, Chris will be asked about his actions, his action denotes a RETAINING of Freddy's sin.

    What was the reason for Chris Retaining of Freddy's sin, Non Forgiveness.

    The non- forgiveness can be determined by Chris's attitude,
    the "I never want to see you ever again" attitude is not Forgiveness because,
    Chris has placed a proviso on his Forgiveness which must be carried out or, the tentative Forgiveness will not take effect.

    When we are Forgiven our sins by God, He places them as far as the East is from the West, which denotes, Forgetting they ever happened.

    Jesus taught 70 X 7 how can this take place if Chris is not willing to see Freddy ever again?

    So Forgiveness is Forgetting. :sorry:
     
  6. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

    +305
    United States
    Apostolic
    Single
    1. Revelation 5 is taking place before the end has taken place. Here are couple indications of this.
    A. There are still seas Revelation 5:
    13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    Revelation 21:
    1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

    B. He had only just taken the book to open it.
    Revelation 5:
    7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
    9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    Revelation 6:
    1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
    _________________________________________________

    There are a few reasons why we would believe. One of which is we will be in the presence of the Lord and be as his children, seeing his glory daily. And though we will never know suffering and sorrow we will be able see these things by looking upon those who opposed the lord and chose unrighteousness.
    His Children
    Revelation 21:
    1 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
    7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

    22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
    23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
    24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
    25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
    26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
    27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

    Isaiah 66:
    22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
    23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
    24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

    Example of unrighteousness
    Revelation 21:
    8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    Isaiah 66:
    24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh


    We will know the true and unending love of God being in the presence of his Glory. And we will be able to look upon those who transgressed against him to know what the penalty is for disobeying him.
     
  7. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

    +1,351
    United States
    Charismatic
    Married
    True, how's this for a speck?

    Mat_6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
    Mat_6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

    Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
    Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
    Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
     
  8. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

    +305
    United States
    Apostolic
    Single
    1. It is an example as to the nature of those in the Lake of fire(being tormented and weeping), and an example showing there is a divide that cannot be breached.
    We are told that nobody is yet ascended to heaven. When men die they sleep and await judgment. Abraham included. This tells us the account is just and example and not a literal event. It is also shown to be taking place when men are still on this earth, which we know is destroyed by fire at Christ's return and the resurrection(Revelation 20:9-11)

    2. He was showing us what nature we would have in heaven. We will neither marry or be given in marriage. Just as we are told we will be as angels. And we are told we will judge angels. We are also told that we will remember nothing. We are consistently told what are existence in heaven will be like. That is what Christ was telling those who asked the widow question about(our heavenly existence).
     
  9. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

    +1,351
    United States
    Charismatic
    Married
    So God just cleans up our messes, as though they never happened, and says, "Enter into my rest thou good and faithful servant"?
     
  10. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

    +1,351
    United States
    Charismatic
    Married
    Neither, in looking at the ending of this Parable, Jesus explains it.

    It's about the Jews rejection of their Messiah (Jesus) and their losing the Kingdom of God that He brought with Him for them.

    Luke 16:31
    And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
     
  11. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

    +38,040
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Hi Valetic, so no sounds of harpists playing in Heaven then .. e.g. Revelation 5:8, 14:2, 15:2? I was looking forward to that, so bummer :(

    And no more eating or drinking? What do we make of a passage like this one then?

    Matthew 26
    27 He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you.
    28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
    29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.

    Thanks!

    --David
    p.s. - I just remembered this passage as well, and what Jesus did after He rose with His then glorified body.

    Acts of the Apostles 10
    40 God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
    41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  12. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

    +305
    United States
    Apostolic
    Single
    So you don't believe Luke 16:25-26 tells us anything about the nature of the Lake of fire and God's judgment?
    25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
     
  13. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

    +1,351
    United States
    Charismatic
    Married
    No I don't, what I believe is what I stated, and all of the Parables are only abut the Kingdom of God, if this is understood to begin with, then all of the Parables become understandable.

    This is the purpose of the Parables of Jesus.

    Mat 13:10-13
    10) And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
    11) He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
    12) For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
    13) Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

    Mat. 13:34
    All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

    Mar 4:33,34
    33) And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.
    34) But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
     
  14. david tyler

    david tyler JESUS LOVES YOU

    124
    +33
    Canada
    Non-Denom
    Private
    DELETED
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
  15. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

    +38,040
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Hi Stephen, is that why you believe we will have no memory of our life here, because if we did, we wouldn't think so highly of ourselves in Heaven? (because we would know forever that, outside of Christ, we deserved to be in Hell for our disobedience as much as anyone else who is there?)

    Thanks again!

    --David
     
  16. Valetic

    Valetic Addicted to CF Supporter

    822
    +536
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    I do not claim to know what awaits us in the afterlife other than the presence of God. Food is not eternal. God is. Songs have a beginning and end. God does not. Jesus may have prophesied a future event but will I need to continue eating in the afterlife to survive? Will I need continuous harp music to enjoy myself in Heaven? I can't see myself saying yes to that considering all that entails He Himself.
     
  17. PaulCyp1

    PaulCyp1 Well-Known Member Supporter

    600
    +472
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    No-one will have the slightest negative feelings toward anyone else in Heaven. We will have left that kind of childish earthly behavior behind us. All who are in Heaven will love one another more perfectly than anyone ever loved while on Earth.
     
  18. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

    +305
    United States
    Apostolic
    Single
    Well I guess that's what you believe then brother. It was nice speaking with you.
     
  19. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

    +305
    United States
    Apostolic
    Single
    I believe exactly what is written brother. We will have no memory because otherwise we would feel sorrow for our loved ones burning in the lake of fire. If our memory remained none of these things could be true.
    4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    We would feel sorrow and pain(if we retained our memories) seeing those we loved in this life suffering their eternal punishment.
     
  20. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

    +38,040
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Hi again Valetic, some of these questions cannot be answered with any certainty at this point, of course, though it does seem that physical bodies living on the New Earth may require sustenance of some sort, doesn't it, especially when we add in the few things that we do know about that life and the bodies we will have there .. again e.g. Matthew 26:27-29; Acts of the Apostles 10:40-41.

    As for songs having a beginning and an end, what of the other forms of worship then? Will they have a beginning and an end, or will we never stop saying, "Holy, Holy, Holy", while we cast, retrieve and cast our crowns again and again and again?

    While I know that such things are unknowable (for the most part anyway), the little that we do know certainly makes them interesting to ponder, yes? :)

    --David
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
Loading...