1Timothy 2:4 by CH Spurgeon

[mlqurgw]

So tell me then.

Does God desire all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth?

According to the Scriptures no He doesn't. If He did then He wouldn't have hid the truth from the wise and prudent and revealed them unto babes. Matt. 11:25-27, 1Cor. 1:23-31

 

[mlqurgw]

The whole point is to just trust in the providence of God.

From Genesis 22:8 KJV
[8] And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb....

You see. Abraham knew what was going on way back then. Later not far from that spot on Mt. Moriah The Lamb was slain for the sins of the world.

Not to nit pick but we don't trust in the providence of God we trust in the person and work of Christ. We take comfort in the providence of God and even gfive thanks for the providence of God but we trust Christ.

 

[DD2008]

According to the Scriptures no He doesn't. If He did then He wouldn't have hid the truth from the wise and prudent and revealed them unto babes. Matt. 11:25-27, 1Cor. 1:23-31

Is 1 Timothy 2:4 not part of scripture then?

I see no other way to take 1 Timothy 2:4. Apparently Spurgeon didn't either. Did God hide the meaning of this text from CH Spurgeon?

We know that God cannot lie.

Titus 1:2 KJV
[2] In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Why wouldn't his words be true when he says he desires all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth? Why wouldn't we believe him? That is not the style of writing that is figurative in nature, that is simply a direct statement of the desires of the Lord.

 

[mlqurgw]

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2 Peter 2:1

It appears that Jesus even bought those who bring swift destruction upon themselves. To me this indicates that Jesus died even for those who inevitably perish.

Yes as a Man Jesus bought the right to rule the whole world. He didn't buy then to be their Savior but to be their King.

 

[student ad x]

There's no disharmony within the Godhead regarding the redemption of a particular people..... these called out ones! Christ's blood is sufficient for all that it was intended and applied to all that it was intended!

 

[DD2008]

Not to nit pick but we don't trust in the providence of God we trust in the person and work of Christ. We take comfort in the providence of God and even gfive thanks for the providence of God but we trust Christ.

You are nitpicking a bit I would say. We do trust in God.

2 Samuel 22:3 KJV
[3] The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence

 

[student ad x]

Is 1 Timothy 2:4 not part of scripture then?

I see no other way to take 1 Timothy 2:4. Apparently Spurgeon didn't either. Did God hide the meaning of this text from CH Spurgeon?

We know that God cannot lie.

DD, the passage in 1 Timothy 2 in context is about evangelistic prayer!

 

[mlqurgw]

Some may think that I have quoted very little Scripture. But those who know the Scriptures also know that I have actually quoted quite a bit of Scripture. I just didn't give the reference.

 

[DD2008]

There's no disharmony within the Godhead regarding the redemption of a particular people..... these called out ones! Christ's blood is sufficient for all that it was intended and applied to all that it was intended!

Right. That doesn't mean that Christ didn't die for all. It just means the atonement isn't applied to all. If he didn't die for all then the offer of salvation wouldn't be true. But God says that he desires all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth so we see that he has provided the atonement to be received by faith. If one doesn't believe as he should he is at fault, God has given him sufficient grace.

 

[DD2008]

DD, the passage in 1 Timothy 2 in context is about evangelistic prayer!

That reveals that God desires all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. The bible reveals many things that way. The entire thing is a revelation about God.

 

[mlqurgw]

Is 1 Timothy 2:4 not part of scripture then?

I see no other way to take 1 Timothy 2:4. Apparently Spurgeon didn't either. Did God hide the meaning of this text from CH Spurgeon?

We know that God cannot lie.

Titus 1:2 KJV
[2] In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Why wouldn't his words be true when he says he desires all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth? Why wouldn't we believe him? That is not the style of writing that is figurative in nature, that is simply a direct statement of the desires of the Lord.

Because that understanding denies what the Scriptures teach as a whole and the context shows that it agrees with the teaching of the Scriptures as a whole. Would Paul teach something contradictory to what he had taught in other palces?
No God doesn't lie. But He does conceal the truth from many. He leaves them to thier own natural devices and understanding. It is clear from the passages I already gave you. He told Pharoah the truth but but He didn't reveal the depth of the truth to him.God doesn't lie. He tells men what the truth is if they would see it but they will not see it. He revealed Christ in all the Old Testament Scriptures. He revealed Him plainly but the jews would not have Him. John the Baptist even told them that there was one that stood among them that they would not see as God even though He plainly told them who He was.

 

[student ad x]

Right. That doesn't mean that Christ didn't die for all. It just means the atonement isn't applied to all. If he didn't die for all then the offer of salvation wouldn't be true. But God says that he desires all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth so we see that he has provided the atonement to be received by faith. If one doesn't believe as he should he is at fault, God has given him sufficient grace.

From the canons of Dordt, 2nd main point of doctrine:
Article 3 - The Infinite Value of the Death of Christ
This death of the Son of God is the only and most perfect sacrifice and satisfaction for sins, of infinite value and worth, abundantly sufficient to expiate the sins of the whole world.

Article 8 - The Efficacy of the Death of Christ
For this was the most free counsel of God the Father, that the life-giving and saving efficacy of the most precious death of His Son should extend to all the elect. It was His most gracious will and intent to give them alone justifying faith and thereby to bring them unfailingly to salvation. This means: God willed that Christ through the blood of the cross (by which He confirmed the new covenant) should effectually redeem out of every people, tribe, nation, and tongue all those, and those only, who were from eternity chosen to salvation and were given to Him by the Father. God further willed that Christ should give to them faith, which, together with other saving gifts of the Holy Spirit, He acquired for them by His death; that He should cleanse them by His blood from all sins, both original and actual, both those committed after faith and before faith; and that He should guard them faithfully to the end and at last present them to Himself in splendour without any spot or wrinkle.

 

[student ad x]

That reveals that God desires all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. The bible reveals many things that way. The entire thing is a revelation about God.

It reveals that kings, potentates etc. are not to be excluded in our petitions for the lost to come to an understanding of the truth. The all men is clarified in verses 1 - 2 ......... not all men (every single person) for all time.

 

[mlqurgw]

From the canons of Dordt:
Article 3 - The Infinite Value of the Death of Christ
This death of the Son of God is the only and most perfect sacrifice and satisfaction for sins, of infinite value and worth, abundantly sufficient to expiate the sins of the whole world.

Article 8 - The Efficacy of the Death of Christ
For this was the most free counsel of God the Father, that the life-giving and saving efficacy of the most precious death of His Son should extend to all the elect. It was His most gracious will and intent to give them alone justifying faith and thereby to bring them unfailingly to salvation. This means: God willed that Christ through the blood of the cross (by which He confirmed the new covenant) should effectually redeem out of every people, tribe, nation, and tongue all those, and those only, who were from eternity chosen to salvation and were given to Him by the Father. God further willed that Christ should give to them faith, which, together with other saving gifts of the Holy Spirit, He acquired for them by His death; that He should cleanse them by His blood from all sins, both original and actual, both those committed after faith and before faith; and that He should guard them faithfully to the end and at last present them to Himself in splendour without any spot or wrinkle.

What is the point in a sufficient but effient argument? Except of course to molify the Arminian. The blood of Christ was shed for whom He intended it to be shed and no one else. Certainly it is of infinite value and could have atoned for the sins of all men without exception but that is a moot point. It matters not that it could have it didn't. That is like arguing over how many angels could fit on the head of a pin. It has no real meaning other than to appease the free-will works religionist.

 

[RobertZ]

John 3:14-15
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.


Maybe im off base here but when Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert anyone who looked to the serpent was healed. But........they had too look upon the serpent in order to be healed.


Im guessing the serpent was an OT picture of the Sacrafice in Christ that had yet to come. But doesnt it work the same way with Christ? All who look to him will live?

 

[mlqurgw]

John 3:14-15

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.


Maybe im off base here but when Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert anyone who looked to the serpent was healed. But........they had too look upon the serpent.

You are not off base. That serpant was a picture of Christ. Only those who had been bitten by the fiery serpents of sin needed to look. Those who did look were healed.

 

[RobertZ]

You are not off base. That serpant was a picture of Christ. Only those who had been bitten by the fiery serpents of sin needed to look. Those who did look were healed.

So in the same way anyone at anytime can look to Christ and be saved correct? I guess the thing is even though the Serpent that Moses held up would heal the people they still had to look in order to be healed. If they didnt look they perished.

Seems like the Serpent was enough to heal them but they had to do their part which was to LOOK.

 

[DD2008]

It reveals that kings, potentates etc. are not to be excluded in our petitions for the lost to come to an understanding of the truth. The all men is clarified in verses 1 - 2 ......... not all men (every single person) for all time.

It is clarified that God desires every single person to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

 

[DD2008]

From the canons of Dordt, 2nd main point of doctrine:
Article 3 - The Infinite Value of the Death of Christ
This death of the Son of God is the only and most perfect sacrifice and satisfaction for sins, of infinite value and worth, abundantly sufficient to expiate the sins of the whole world.

Article 8 - The Efficacy of the Death of Christ
For this was the most free counsel of God the Father, that the life-giving and saving efficacy of the most precious death of His Son should extend to all the elect. It was His most gracious will and intent to give them alone justifying faith and thereby to bring them unfailingly to salvation. This means: God willed that Christ through the blood of the cross (by which He confirmed the new covenant) should effectually redeem out of every people, tribe, nation, and tongue all those, and those only, who were from eternity chosen to salvation and were given to Him by the Father. God further willed that Christ should give to them faith, which, together with other saving gifts of the Holy Spirit, He acquired for them by His death; that He should cleanse them by His blood from all sins, both original and actual, both those committed after faith and before faith; and that He should guard them faithfully to the end and at last present them to Himself in splendour without any spot or wrinkle.

The canons of Dort aren't scripture. They do not bind my conscience, only scripture does and it includes everyone.

 

[DD2008]

Because that understanding denies what the Scriptures teach as a whole and the context shows that it agrees with the teaching of the Scriptures as a whole. Would Paul teach something contradictory to what he had taught in other palces?
No God doesn't lie. But He does conceal the truth from many. He leaves them to thier own natural devices and understanding. It is clear from the passages I already gave you. He told Pharoah the truth but but He didn't reveal the depth of the truth to him.God doesn't lie. He tells men what the truth is if they would see it but they will not see it. He revealed Christ in all the Old Testament Scriptures. He revealed Him plainly but the jews would not have Him. John the Baptist even told them that there was one that stood among them that they would not see as God even though He plainly told them who He was.

I am having trouble remembering the scripture where Paul said that God doesn't desire anyone to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth or God doesn't desire everyone to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

However, I do recall 1 Timothy 2:4 that clearly states he desires all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.