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Featured Islam 1st Revelation is not from Gabriel

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by DWA2DAY, Dec 10, 2017.

  1. DWA2DAY

    DWA2DAY convictions are worse Enemies of Truth than Lies!

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    Islamic Claim # 5.1 - Qur'an is revealed by Allah though Angel Gabriel.
    Muslims believe that the Quran was verbally revealed by God to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel (Jibril), gradually over a period of approximately 23 years, beginning in 609AD, when Muhammad was 40, and concluding in 632AD, the year of his death.

    Surah 96 dose not refer to Angel Gabriel
    No mention is made in surah 96 of any angel making any revelation to Muhammad. There were some 350 pagan gods worship around Mecca at the time of the first revelation. Thus without reference been made to which god (Allah) of pagan times Muhammad was praying to or meditating on one concludes in all probability Muhammad had invoked any one of the Jinns or spirits of the pagan deities of the Kaaba.

    Secondly in the Hadith Muhammad makes clear he did not know what pushed him to the floor and in his ignorance calls it an angel.

    “The angel came to him and asked him to read.”

    This could be any form of spirit begin from the pagan gods Muhammad was so familiar with.

    Thus on failing any reasonable explanation from our Muslim friends it is clear from the Qur'an and Hadith that the first revelation does not agree with Islamic tradition and is nothing more a fabrication by a desperate Arab seek spiritual political power.


    Reference Sahih Bukhari Hadith 3, In Book ref Book 1 Hadith 3, USC-MSA Vol 1 Book 1 Hadith3
     
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  2. Niblo

    Niblo Muslim Supporter

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    ‘Say (Prophet): “if anyone is an enemy of Gabriel who by Allāh’s leave brought down the Qur’an to your heart confirming previous scriptures as a guide and good news for the faithful if anyone is an enemy of Allāh, His angels and His messengers, of Gabriel and Michael, then Allāh is certainly the enemy of such disbelievers.” For We have sent down clear messages to you and only those who defy (Allāh) would refuse to believe them.’ (Al-Baqara: 97-99).
     
  3. DWA2DAY

    DWA2DAY convictions are worse Enemies of Truth than Lies!

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    Hi Niblo
    Thank you for your reply. But really surah 2 is the 87th revelation received as was in Medina. It is right between Surah 16 & 8 and in direct response to accusation made by the Jews to Muhammad on his incorporation of Fables and false stories into his revelations. Further more this comes some 10 years after the 1st revelation.

    Thus in context your reply is see as an after thought Muhammad add to cover up his tracks. I say this as if we look at the hadith on the 1st revelation what do we learn.

    Hadith Surah 96 - The 1st Revelation
    Sahih Bukhari: Book 1, Hadith 3
    Narrated 'Aisha:
    ............ He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. ......... "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. ....... Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. .........

    So here the facts
    1) Surah 96 the first revelation does not mention angel Gabriel.
    2) The Hadith says Muhammad was praying to Allah before the revelation, thus this can only be the pagan god Allah with the wife and two daughters and not the true God of Creation, "Yahweh".
    3) Muhammad's uncle, Waraqa, a Christian translating the bible into Arabic, tells Muhammad it is angle Gabriel.

    There were some 350 pagan gods worship around Mecca at the time of the first revelation. Thus without reference been made to which god (Allah) of pagan times Muhammad was praying to or meditating on one concludes in all probability Muhammad had invoked any one of the Jinns or spirits of the pagan deities of the Kaaba.

    The fact that the event took place in a cave which has the conitation of the underworld and home of evil spirits dose not seem likely that this is the type of Holy Ground Yahweh would reveal himself.

    Thus my question remains unanswered.

    "Why is angel Gabriel not mentioned in the first revelation by Muhammad?"

    From the above it seems clear that the revelation is a man made story pieced together from advise and occurrences in Muhammad's life.
     
  4. Niblo

    Niblo Muslim Supporter

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    ‘Recite! In the name of your Lord who created: He created man from a clinging form. Recite! Your Lord is the Most Bountiful One who taught by (means of) the pen, who taught man what he did not know. But man exceeds all bounds when he thinks he is self-sufficient: all will return to your Lord. Have you seen the man who prohibits a servant when he prays? Have you seen whether he is rightly guided, or encourages true piety? Have you seen whether he denies the truth and turns away from it? Does he not realize that God sees all? No! If he does not stop, We shall drag him by his forehead - his lying, sinful forehead. Let him summon his comrades; We shall summon the guards of Hell. No! Do not obey him: bow down in worship and draw close.’ (Al-Alaq: 1-19).

    This is a Meccan sura; the first five verses of which are known to be the first revelation of the Qur’an; when the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was instructed to recite. The second part came later to show that man transgresses when he becomes self-satisfied.

    The Lord is most bountiful for He blesses humankind with the greatest of blessings: creation and revelation.

    Seyyed Hossein Nasr writes: ‘That God teaches human beings and brings them out of darkness into light (14: 1, 5; 33: 43; 57: 9; cf. Isaiah 42: 16; 1 Peter 2: 9) is the extension and continuation of His unbounded generosity.’ (‘The Study Quran: A New Translation and Commentary’).

    Indeed, neither Gabriel nor the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) are named in the sura. Why should they be, when the subject is God Himself?

    Where is the Christian who would deny that God is the Creator; that He created humankind; that He is the most bountiful; that He is the Ultimate Teacher? Where is the Christian who will not bow down before God in worship; drawing close to Him?

    God the Lord; the Creator; the Teacher; the Bountiful; the Judge is glorified in this sura. And yet a fuss is made because Gabriel is not mentioned! Synthetic indignation. How very bizarre.
     
  5. DWA2DAY

    DWA2DAY convictions are worse Enemies of Truth than Lies!

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    Yes I do find quite bizarre that Islam claim that Angel Gabriel was gods messenger to Muhammad yet the Islamic text are void of this claim. What the Islamic source do say that is was Muhammad's cousin who suggested the revelation was from Angel Gabriel.

    Therefore from the first Surah we have human influence inserted into Islamic tradition and it Holy Text the Quran. So the question is simply who revealed the Quran to Muhammad?

    Let me be plain in case you do not understand my point and in responce to the above flippent attitude of so what if Gabriel is not mentioned. Well since the foundation of Islam is based on the revelation of angle Gabriel to Muhammad and from the above you have agreed, then Islam is based on a lie.
    However let me give you the benefit of the doubt. Let us ignore angle Gabriel for a moment and focus on the subject matter Allah.

    Please explain how from the above hadith in post #3 that Muhammad is on more than one occasion going to a secluded hole in the ground to worship the one true God fo creation who has not revealed himself to Muhammad. So Muhammad is praying to the unknown god by name. Opps no could this be the pagan god Allah.

    Secondly
    This 2nd verse of surah 96 is a direct contradiction of other passages in the Quran. 3:59
    Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.

    This raised two question. Allah the focus of the 1st revelation has no idea how he created humans. Therefore can not be the God of creation.
    Islamic tradition is clear that the Quran is the direct words of Allah, clear, without error or contradiction. This is clearly a contradiction. Thus is not the word of the God of creation as Islam claims.

    This next verse is intresting when one looks at the associated tafsir (Arabic commentary)

    Tafsir Surah 96 - Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an
    As we have explained in the Introduction.........., That is, "It is a great favor of Allah that starting man's creation from a most insignificant state He made him possessor of knowledge which is the noblest attribute of creation, and He made him not only possessor of knowledge but also taught him the art of writing by the use of pen, which became the means of propagation, progress, dissemination and preservation of knowledge on a large scale. Had He not given man the knowledge of the art of pen and writing (by inspiration) his intellectual faculty would have stagnated, and it would have had no opportunity to develop, expand and become a means of transmission of knowledge from one generation to the next and make future progress.

    Wow, the first revelation means that Muhammad was to write the Quran down. Ok yes he could not read and write, yet as we see from the Hadith in post 3 Muhammad knew people who could read and write. Yet 20 years after his death there is a scramble to write the Quran down because the few people who knew it from memory were been killed in war. What was left out we do not know, what was added we do not know, why because all the written historical material was burned.

    What is my point - simple the great prophet Muhammad ignored Allah command from the first revelation and due to his inability to read and write told his followers to memorize the Quran instead for listing to Allah. Keep in mind a child learn to read and write between the ages of four and six. Surly in 23 years of been a prophet he could have learned to write if it was so important to Allah.
    Or did Allah just not want to bless his seal of all prophets in this manner. Which ask the question is Allah so ignorant to instruct a illiterate person to read and write when he dose not know how. Proving once again Allah how small and powerless that he could not give this blessing to his salve prophet Muhammad.

    what was more important to Allah the transmission of his final instruction to mankind or the number of wives Muhammad can have, again leaning towards a prophets personal pleasure and not mankind salvation.

    Yes Niblio it is bizarre, not only is angel Gabriel void of theQuranic revelation but so is the focus of attention as you put it ..... the True God of Creation is also proven to be void in the 1st revelation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
  6. Niblo

    Niblo Muslim Supporter

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    Really?

    ‘Say (Prophet): “if anyone is an enemy of Gabriel who by Allāh’s leave brought down the Qur’an to your heart confirming previous scriptures as a guide and good news for the faithful if anyone is an enemy of Allāh, His angels and His messengers, of Gabriel and Michael, then Allāh is certainly the enemy of such disbelievers.” For We have sent down clear messages to you and only those who defy (Allāh) would refuse to believe them.’ (Al-Baqara: 97-99).

    Note the text shown in bold. This ought to be clear enough. I don't expect you to believe what is claimed...merely to acknowledge that the claim is made.
     
  7. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Is the name of the angel Gabriel not ever mentioned in the entire Quran?
     
  8. DWA2DAY

    DWA2DAY convictions are worse Enemies of Truth than Lies!

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    I have answered this already. Your are most welcome to refute my argument posted in post # 6, but repeating the same old Islamic gymnastic dose not make the error in your text true and is nothing more than a circular vain argument.

    I look forward to an more informed reply that adds value to the discussion.
     
  9. Niblo

    Niblo Muslim Supporter

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    In post 6 you wrote: 'Yes I do find quite bizarre that Islam claim that Angel Gabriel was gods messenger to Muhammad yet the Islamic text are void of this claim.'

    I presented a sura that refutes your statement. Is it really so difficult to admit your error?
     
  10. DWA2DAY

    DWA2DAY convictions are worse Enemies of Truth than Lies!

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    Yes you are correct it is an error on my part.
    I dealt with this is post # 3 not 6.
    So as I previously said this has been dealt with and refuted. You have failed to come up with anything new but repeating your self thinking it will make the Islamic lie become true.

    Do you have anything else of value to add?
     
  11. Yi-man

    Yi-man Member

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    Following Prophet Muhammad's pbuh first revelation in the cave, Aisha ra reports on the conversation and events following the meeting with Waraqa, the Christian Monk...

    Waraqa said, "This is the same Namus (i.e., Gabriel, the Angel who keeps the secrets) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they turn me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said: "Never did a man come with something similar to what you have brought but was treated with hostility. If I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, "O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah's Apostle in truth" whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home. And whenever the period of the coming of the inspiration used to become long, he would do as before, but when he used to reach the top of a mountain, Gabriel would appear before him and say to him what he had said before.

    Allah swt says;

    “By the star when it goes down (or vanishes).
    Your companion (Muhammad) has neither gone astray nor has erred.
    Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.
    It is only a Revelation revealed.
    He has been taught (this Qur’an) by one mighty in power [Jibreel (Gabriel)].”
    al-Najm 53:1-5

    Together with Brother Niblo's posts, it's clear GOD, (Allah swt) sent Angel Gabriel pbuh to convey His message to His Last and Final Messenger, pbuh.
     
  12. DWA2DAY

    DWA2DAY convictions are worse Enemies of Truth than Lies!

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    Thank you fro your reply.
    you have given no clear proof but simply have support what I have claimed.

    Here you prove that the revelation was not by Angel Gabriel but Muhammad was informed from his cousin Waraqa after the event it must have been angle Gabriel.

    You then go futhere to prove my case ......
    So terified was Muhammad of this spirit that he tried to kill himself on a number of occassion, this same spirit comes to save him. Armed with the knowledge given by Muhammad's uncle the Christian translator of the Bible, he now say this is angel Gabriel.
    The angle dose not identify himself and thus is all the personal advice of a human man not the Muhammad or Yahweh.

    I have no idea what you trying to prove here. Either you have no comprehension of your own faith or assume I am just stupid.
    Please not the the words [Jibreel (Gabriel)] are in brackets, this tells us these words are add by the translator and do not form part of the divine revelation you have claimed.

    Final the surah quoted says
    Even the hard core atheist understand the moral of taking one own life is against natures law and thus evil. Not to mention that Muhammad asked for forgiveness of his sins many times in the Quran and Hadith and thus is nothing more that a common sinner. Yet this is deviating from the topic.

    Conclusion you have not refuted my claim that Islam is not the divine inspiration from the alleged messenger of Yahweh but from an unknown evil spirit.

    If you have any other evidence to off I look forward to it.
     
  13. Niblo

    Niblo Muslim Supporter

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    Thank you for your honesty. Then we are agreed...According to the Qur'an, Gabriel was the medium through which it was revealed. Thank you for your time.
     
  14. DWA2DAY

    DWA2DAY convictions are worse Enemies of Truth than Lies!

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    Yea typical move on a Muslims part, this is called Taqiyya, the art of deception.
    Or in your case the inability to read the full post.

    Here I was expecting a reply which could stimulate ones intellect and this is the best you have. Thus all you have done is supported my claim even further and show that Islam lacks the evidence to support its beliefs.

    Thank you.
     
  15. Yi-man

    Yi-man Member

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    The Qur'an clearly says it was one mighty in power, referring to the Angel and makes references to Gabriel pbuh. Your contention of it being a Jinn or Spirit from other than GOD, doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Why would all but 1 Surah start with,

    "In the name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful".

    The very first words the Angel told him to recite in the cave were, "Recite in the name of your Lord."
     
  16. DWA2DAY

    DWA2DAY convictions are worse Enemies of Truth than Lies!

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    (96:1:3) rabbika (of) your Lord اقْرَأْ بِاسْمِ رَبِّكَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ (The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Quran Dictionary)

    Rabbika (رَبِّكَ):
    Rabb in Arabic means the one who created you, who sustains you, who provides for you; the definition of this word takes pages! The “ka” hear means you (single person, male); so rabbuka means “your Rabb,” kitaabuka means “your book,” masjiduka means “your masjid,” etc. (Arabic Analysis for First Revelation)

    This is translated as Lord as per your post.

    Lord is an appellation for a person or deity who has authority, control, or power over others acting like a master, a chief, or a ruler.[1][2]The appellation can also denote certain persons who hold a title of the peerage in the United Kingdom, or are entitled to courtesy titles. The collective "Lords" can refer to a group or body of peers. (Lord - Wikipedia)

    With reference to the above hadith, we see that Waraqa gave the title to the jinn as Gabriel, the Hadith also tells us that he was a Christian translating the Bible from Hebrew to Arabic. If this was then the Lord of creation as Muslims claim Allah to be the translation would be Yahweh. Not simply Lord.

    Further proof of this is if were the true god of creation he would know that man was not created from a clot of Blood.
    Verse 2 says man was created from a clot of blood. The Tafsir of Al-Jalalayn defines this as a blood-clot. In other words man, meaning Adam, was created from a blood clot. Yet later on in the Revelation of the Qur’an from the all-seeing Allah changes this revelation.

    Surah 32:7 = Man is created from Clay
    Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.
    ٱلَّذِىٓ أَحْسَنَ كُلَّ شَىْءٍ خَلَقَهُۥ ۖ وَبَدَأَ خَلْقَ ٱلْإِنسَٰنِ مِن طِينٍ

    Surah 23:12 = Man is created from Mud
    And certainly did We create man from an extract of clay.
    وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا ٱلْإِنسَٰنَ مِن سُلَٰلَةٍ مِّن طِينٍ

    Surah 3:59 = Man is created from Dust
    Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.
    إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَىٰ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ كَمَثَلِ ءَادَمَ ۖ خَلَقَهُۥ مِن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ قَالَ لَهُۥ كُن فَيَكُونُ

    Surah 35:11 = Dusty sperm – Allah still not certain!
    And Allah created you from dust, then from a sperm-drop; then He made you mates. And no female conceives nor does she give birth except with His knowledge. And no aged person is granted life nor is his lifespan lessened but that it is in a register. Indeed, that for Allah is easy.
    وَٱللَّهُ خَلَقَكُم مِّن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ مِن نُّطْفَةٍ ثُمَّ جَعَلَكُمْ أَزْوَٰجًا ۚ وَمَا تَحْمِلُ مِنْ أُنثَىٰ وَلَا تَضَعُ إِلَّا بِعِلْمِهِۦ ۚ وَمَا يُعَمَّرُ مِن مُّعَمَّرٍ وَلَا يُنقَصُ مِنْ عُمُرِهِۦٓ إِلَّا فِى كِتَٰبٍ ۚ إِنَّ ذَٰلِكَ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ يَسِيرٌ

    Clearly the Allah of the Qur'an is somewhat confused as to how he made Adam. Taking it even father the Islamic god of creation dose not even know were sperm is made and thus the question is Allah the the God of Creation or the great manipulation and story telling of Muhammad.

    Surah 86:6-7 = Sperm in back bone
    He was created from a fluid, ejected. Emerging from between the backbone and the ribs.
    يَخْرُجُ مِنۢ بَيْنِ ٱلصُّلْبِ وَٱلتَّرَآئِبِ خُلِقَ مِن مَّآءٍ دَافِقٍ

    Thus the Allah of the Qur'an is uncertain of the how man is created and has no idea as to the mechanisms with in his own creation such as where sperm is made.

    Thus one can only conclude that the Lord you are talking of here is not the Lord of Creation and must be one of the 350 idols or pagan god around Mecca at the time of Muhammad.


    [1] QuranX.com The most complete Quran / Hadith / Tafsir collection available! - accessed 24/11/2017
     
  17. Yi-man

    Yi-man Member

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    I'm assuming now that you can't provide evidence of a Jinn/Spirit being responsible for the revelation you wish to try and find fault with certain verses.

    Man created from clay, this is correct as we are all descendants of the last Adam pbuh, who without parents was created from clay, earth, dust, dirt etc 32:7 and 23:12 addressing man singular, clearly in remembrance of Adam pbuh.

    3:59 Jesus pbuh likened to Adam pbuh, only the miracle of Adam pbuh was greater, as he had no parents at all.

    35:11 The first man was created from dust as shown above in the case of Adam pbuh.
    Subsequent children of Adam and their descendants are created from the act of procreation, involving fluids mixing.

    86:6 I'm no medical Dr, but this could be a reference to the Kidney which is located in the area described, there is a connection to the Seminal Vesicle, which is responsible for 70% of the male's fluid during ejaculation. Once the sperm has entered the spinal marrow it passes in its course through the veins along the kidneys (sometimes if there is a lesion of the kidneys, blood is carried along with the sperm). From the kidneys it passes via the testicles into the penis.

    Another explanation:



    As for Yahweh not being Allah swt. Know that the God of Abraham was called Allah, Eloh, Elaha etc. Jesus pbuh spoke Aramaic and would have used Elaha. Archaeologists say Yahweh was a God borrowed from Bedouin Arab dwellers from whom Israelites spent time and learnt their customs and rituals before taking 'yahweh' back with them.

    "The Bible appears to address this early worship of El in Exodus 6:3, when God tells Moses that he “appeared to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as El Shaddai (today translated as "God Almighty") but was not known to them by my name Yhwh.”

    "In fact, it seems that the ancient Israelites weren't even the first to worship Yhwh – they seem to have adopted Him from a mysterious, unknown tribe that lived somewhere in the deserts of the southern Levant and Arabia."

    read more: How the Jews invented God, and made him great

    It must be hard, I know, hurling rocks at another faith from a glasshouse.
     
  18. DWA2DAY

    DWA2DAY convictions are worse Enemies of Truth than Lies!

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    I fail to see how this post is has anything to do with the topic and angel Gabriel not been mentioned in first surah.

    However you explanation is a valiant attempt, but must wonder why you find the need to move away from what the text says. Created is created meaning the first creation, from there on the natural laws of creation of reproduction take place and are some what hands free of any deities interaction. a child understands this.

    If you have any other information that can shed any light as to why the divine revelation of the Quran requires the input Muhammad's uncle and possible other men to give it body I look forward to your post.

    Please show the respect of the forum and stay with in the topic.
     
  19. Niblo

    Niblo Muslim Supporter

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    As-Salāmu ‘alaykum wa Rahmatullāhi wa Barakātuhu.

    Excellent!

    Welcome to the Forum, sister.
     
  20. Yi-man

    Yi-man Member

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    wa alaikum salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu Brother Niblo, I'm a brother using wife's account, as it was just collecting dust :D
     
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