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1st Clement and the Canon

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by NumberOneSon, Nov 28, 2002.

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  1. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    Not that I know of.

    The above examples were ferreted out by Yours Truly, going page by page through the St. Joseph NAB New Testament and checking each and every footnote with a cross-reference to a Deuterocanonical book. I'm not claiming that it's a perfect list, nor an all-inclusive one; but it does have enough examples to prove my point, which is to shoot down the foolish claim that "Jesus and the Apostles never referenced any Apocryphal book".

    And as I said, if you start including loose allusions, you can greatly expand this list.
     
  2. dignitized

    dignitized Well-Known Member

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    what amazes me, is that the Protestants:

    1 reject the OT Deuterocanonical passages as spurious but retain the NT Deuterocanonical ones.

    2. Accept as authoritative the Jewish council that set the Hebrew canon, which occurred AFTER the advent of the church.

    3. Continually insist that the Scriptures were intended by God to be a stand-alone work despite the fact that the OT alone quotes from or refers to over 60 extra canonical texts!
     
  3. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

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    What do you mean by #1? Which Protestant groups accept NT deuterocanon?

    -Chris
     
  4. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    It amazes me, too, Brother Max. :)

    I'm also highly amused every time I point out to a Fundamentalist that St. Paul quotes from not one, but four pagan Greeks, worshippers of Zeus (Epimenides of Knossos, Aratus of Cilicia, Cleanthes the Stoic, and Menander of Crete).....and that the little Epistle of Jude references not one, but two different works of Jewish pseudepigrapha: The Book of Enoch and the Assumption of Moses. They won't believe me until I dig up the referenced works and show them the quotations.

    These examples, also, could be multiplied.....Matthew quotes from the Epistle of Barnabas and the 2nd Book of Baruch; and Jesus called Himself the "Son of Man", a title which appears first not in the Bible but in both the Book of Enoch and the 4th Book of Ezra.
     
  5. dignitized

    dignitized Well-Known Member

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    Kern: there are NT passages, which were just as apocryphal as the OT passages that they exclude. When I get home this evening I’ll post the passages I am referring to. I don’t have that information here at work.
     
  6. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

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    Hi Chris,

    I don't know if this is right but I think Anglicans accept the deuterocanonicals.  I guess you can say they're not exactly protestants.  And also, I could be wrong about Anglicans, but I went to an Anglican parish this weekend and I saw a pamphlet that looked like a small devotional book based on the 'apocrypha' (I'm referring to the deterocanonicals).

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  7. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

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    Hi Wolseley,

    Which verse from Jude is from the Assumption of Moses?

    Also, in which verses did Paul quote 4 pagans?  I know of one but I forgot the exact passages.  Please do share =) 

    One last thing: wasn't 'son of man' mentioned in Daniel, Ezekiel, and Psalm 8:4?

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  8. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    Another thing, Br Max:

    It was my understanding that the Jews rejected the Deuterocanonical Scriptures because of POLITICS...there was too much going on with those upstart Christian radicals to grant them even MORE Scripture validating their crazy claims!


    Peace,
    ~VOW
     
  9. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    Jude 9 is a description of the argument between Satan and Michael over the body of Moses. Both Origen and Clement of Alexandria mention the passage from the Assumption of Moses, but since the 6th century, all we have of the Assumption of Moses is a brief fragment; the rest has been lost. So, apparently, Jude, Origen, and Clement are referencing a portion of the Assumption of Moses which we no longer have.

    Jude 6 and Jude 14-15 are both references to the Book of Enoch; Jude 6 refers to Enoch 21:5-7, and Jude 14-15 to Enoch 1:9. Jude 7 is a reference to a passage in the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, another Jewish apocryphal work.
    Acts 17:28 is a quote from Aratus of Cilicia, Phaenomina, Act 5, 3rd century BC. This was itself based on an earlier saying from Epimenides of Knossos, 6th century BC, also used by Cleanthes the Stoic in the 3rd century BC..

    1 Corinthians 15:33 is a quote from Menander of Crete, in the play Thais, 4th century BC.

    Titus 1:12 is a quote from Epimenides of Knossos again.
    Daniel, Enoch, and 4 Ezra were all written around the same time, so they could've referenced each other. However, you are correct in Ezekiel being the first place it is used. I stand corrected. :) However, I can find no use of the phrase in Psalm 8.
     
  10. dignitized

    dignitized Well-Known Member

    +724
    VOw: exactly true.

    Now, I have those Passages from the NT -

    Mk 16:9-20
    Lk 22:43-44
    Jn 5:4
    Jn 8:1-11

    All of the above passages were long in question and have primarily "apocryphal' origins. These passages have claims for inclusion which are weaker than those for including the OT deuterocanon.

    QUESTION for the SOLA SCRIPTURA people: why isn't Enoch in the canon?
     
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