1st Clement and the Canon

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NumberOneSon

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My question is this;  even though some of the Early Church Fathers accepted it as scripture, what were the various reasons that disqualified 1st Clement from being accepted as canonical scripture?

In Christ,

Acts6:5 
 

dignitized

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Primarily he was too far removed from Christ to qualify All of the NT authors were contemporaries of Christ.

The criterion was that works written by an apostle or by a colleague of one could be trusted to preserve the authentic apostolic witness to Jesus. The traditional view has been that a canonical work must also be divinely inspired. All major Christian traditions use the same New Testament.

http://www.slider.com/enc/38000/New_Testament.htm
 
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It wasn't of apostolic origin.

Luke is accepted because of his association with Paul and Mark because of his relation with Peter. In the case of these two, their Apostolic associations were considered guiding lights in the formation of their writings, and aside from these two, all other works are from Apostles (Matthew, John, Paul, and Peter)
 
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kern

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Originally posted by Br. Max
Primarily he was too far removed from Christ to qualify All of the NT authors were contemporaries of Christ.

I don't think this is necessarily an important consideration. All of the Gospels were written by 2nd or 3rd generation Christians who were working off of oral traditions. A number of the letters (James, Jude, 2 Peter, etc.) were written by people who posdate the Apostolic age.

If profession of Apostolic authorship was the primary criterion, then we would have the Gospel of Thomas among other non-canonical scripture.

-Chris
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by Acts6:5
My question is this;  even though some of the Early Church Fathers accepted it as scripture, what were the various reasons that disqualified 1st Clement from being accepted as canonical scripture?

In Christ,

Acts6:5 

Hi Acts6:5,

Just wanted to say Hi =)

I've been hangin' around the Catholic board for a while.  by the way do you remember me?? =)

God bless!

-Jason
 
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Hi Kern,

I can understand your rejection of the Church's witness concerning authenticity and origin of the books of the New Testament. I just hope you can understand our acceptance of that witness as well as the Protestant scholarship conducted in support of the Church's conclusion.
 
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kern

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Originally posted by The Squalid Wanderer
Hi Kern,

I can understand your rejection of the Church's witness concerning authenticity and origin of the books of the New Testament. I just hope you can understand our acceptance of that witness as well as the Protestant scholarship conducted in support of the Church's conclusion.

Sure; authorship is a fairly unimportant thing.

However, regardless of your beliefs I don't think it's accurate to say that 1 Clement was rejected solely because of authorship. There are several books (Gospel of Thomas, for instance) that were rejected despite profession of apostolic authorship, and others that were questioned and were very late to be accepted (2 Peter, Revelation) despite profession of authorship.

-Chris
 
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Originally posted by kern
Sure; authorship is a fairly unimportant thing.

However, regardless of your beliefs I don't think it's accurate to say that 1 Clement was rejected solely because of authorship. There are several books (Gospel of Thomas, for instance) that were rejected despite profession of apostolic authorship, and others that were questioned and were very late to be accepted (2 Peter, Revelation) despite profession of authorship.

-Chris

Dear Chris,

1 Clement was rejected solely because of authorship.  The Gospel of Thomas was rejected also on the issue of authorship, because the veracity of it's claims to Thomastic authorship were rejected by Church.  The same with 2 Peter and Revelation, whose genuine authorship was ultimately accepted as accurate.  A claim to apostolic authorship does not make apostolic authorship.  But apostolic authorship was and is the criteria for acceptance into the New Testament canon.
 
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NumberOneSon

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Thanks for the replies, everyone. Yes, Hoonbaba, I do remember you; glad to see you around.

So Wanderer, is it the position of the Catholic Church that "authorship" was the sole disqualifier? I just want to be sure. Were there any internal problems that caused the epistle to be disregarded as scripture? If it was only a question of authorship then you've answered my question and I appreciate the help.

In Christ,

Acts6:5
 
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The answer is yes and no.

How's that for an answer? :p

Here is what I mean. In a sense it isn't the only criteria, since there would be other measures to judge it by. Four commonly accepted criteria are:

1. Apostolic Origin – attributed to and based on the preaching/teaching of the first-generation apostles (or their close companions).

2. Universal Acceptance – acknowledged by all major Christian communities in the ancient world (by the end of the fourth century).

3. Liturgical Use – read publicly when early Christian communities gathered for the Lord's Supper (their weekly worship services).

4. Consistent Message – containing a theological outlook similar or complementary to other accepted Christian writings.

However, I can say yes in the sense that all of these criteria were used to determine Apostolic origin. If it didn't meet these criteria then it wouldn't be considered Apostolic and hence wouldn't be included in the canon. This is exactly why the Gospel of Thomas isn't in the canon. Even though it claims Apostolic origin, it doesn't pass all four criteria and thus was rejected as being of Apostolic origin.

I think the difference is in how the phrase Apostolic origin is being used.  The first usage is merely that the document claims apostolic origin or that such origin has commonly been attributed to it (in the case of Hebrews), while the second usage is the matter of it actually originating from an Apostle or an intimate associate of an Apostle (in the case of Mark and Luke).

The first is a criteria for determining the second.
 
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dignitized

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Originally posted by kern
I don't think this is necessarily an important consideration. All of the Gospels were written by 2nd or 3rd generation Christians who were working off of oral traditions. A number of the letters (James, Jude, 2 Peter, etc.) were written by people who posdate the Apostolic age.

If profession of Apostolic authorship was the primary criterion, then we would have the Gospel of Thomas among other non-canonical scripture.

-Chris

 

Since when were James Jude and Peter written by other than the apostles??  I think you have been reading the wrong books again. ;)
 
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kern

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Originally posted by Br. Max
 

Since when were James Jude and Peter written by other than the apostles??  I think you have been reading the wrong books again. ;)

I don't think so. We'll take the three books individually, but the source for all this information that I'm using right now is the St. Joseph edition of the NAB (although similar info can be found in any study bible -- Oxford Study Bible, Harper-Collins Study Bible, the Teen Catholic Study Bible, the New Interpreter's Bible, the Anchor Bible, the original Interpreter's Bible, etc.)

First, realize that nowhere in any of the books does it claim Apostolic authorship. "James" and "Jude" are never said in their respective letters to be special people other than just "slaves of Jesus Christ".

James

The main reason why people think this was not written by the apostle James is that the letter seems to be specifically written in response to Paul's letters. People were apparently reading Paul's letters to mean something sort of like Amida Buddhism -- all you have to do is say Jesus' name and believe in him and you're set. Doesn't matter how much you sin after that or what you do, you're saved. So this letter was written in response to these misunderstandings.

Other points are that the Greek is excellent, much better than would be expected of any of the Apostles, and that the book never mentions his history with the Apostles or Jesus.

Jude

I'll just quote the St. Joseph here:

"Many interpreters today consider Jude a pseudonymous work dating from the end of the first century or even later. In support of this view they adduce the following arguments: (a) the apostles are referred to as belonging to an age that has receded into the past (17-18); (b) faith is understood as a body of doctrine handed down by a process of tradition (3); (c) the author's competent Greek style shows that he must have had a Hellenistic cultural formation; (d) the gnostic character of the errors envisaged fits better into the early second century that into a period several decades earlier. While impressive, these arguments are not entirely compelling and do not rule out the possibility of composition around the year A.D. 80, when the historical Jude may have still been alive."

2 Peter

According to the St. Joseph, opposition to the idea that Peter was the author of this letter began in the early church and continued to the 5th century (and beyond).

"Among modern scholars there is wide agreement that 2 Peter is a pseudonymous work, i.e., one written by a later author who attributed it to Peter according to a literary convention popular at the time. It gives the impression of being more remote in time from the apostolic period than 1 Peter; indeed, many think it is the latest work in the New Testament and assign it to the first or even second quarter of the second century."

"The principal reasons for this view are the following. The author refers to the apostles and 'our ancestors' as belonging to a previous generation, now dead (3:2-4). A collection of Paul's letters exists and appears to be well known, but disputes have arisen about the interpretation of them (3:14-16). The passage about false teachers (2:1-18) contains a number of literary contacts with Jude 4-16, and it is generally agreed that 2 Peter depends on Jude, not vice versa. Finally, the principal problem exercising the author is the false teaching of 'scoffers' who have concluded from the delay of the parousia that the Lord is not going to return. This could scarcely have been an issue during the lifetime of Simon Peter."

-Chris
 
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Dear Chris,

We could trade scholarship all day, but I don't see that taking us anywhere constructive. We wouldn't agree since our competing views have two different presuppositions, yours from a naturalistic perspective and mine a supernatural one.

What I would ask is why do you doubt your Church? There is a reason these books are attributed to the authors in question. The Church agreed upon these pieces of literature for a reason and if this reason really is false then we have no reason for confidence in them and no basis for our faith, since is it founded upon revelation. By dismantling this, your faith has no purpose except to perpetuate pietistic fables for sociological reasons.
 
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dignitized

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Kern: with all do respect to modern learning . . . The church fathers accpeted that Jude was authored by Jude, that James was Authored by James and that, Peter was authored by peter. Otherwise they would not have been included in the canon. *shrug* I will suggest that perhaps since the apostles on a whole were not learned men, they might well have been illiterate. Would it be shocking then to expect that James would have a scribe write the letter he dictated? :) Forgive me if I have more faith in God that to believe that he would allow us to be decieved in this manner. If the scriptures are wrong in this count, what is to say they are not in error in the account of the parting of the red sea or the Resurrection of the Lord??
 
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The interesting part about this subject is that it is true that we don' t really know who the actual authors of every NT book were. Some were credited to the people who's names they have attached to them strictly by tradition. The same unwritten tradition of the Church that so many folks attack as unreliable and false. It is a double standard. The unwritten tradition that attributes the names of authors to NT scripture is accepted and so are the books yet other traditions of the Church are rejected because they aren't always spelled out in these very same books. The NT specifically says not all of the traditions are written but commands us to keep them anyway.
 
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kern

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Originally posted by The Squalid Wanderer

What I would ask is why do you doubt your Church? There is a reason these books are attributed to the authors in question.

Yes, the Holy Spirit directed them to choose which books were canonical. It doesn't matter who wrote them, it matters if they line up with Sacred Tradition, and if the Holy Spirit had the council choose the books. J. Random Evangelist could have been just as inspired by God to write a letter as Peter the Apostle was.

Is it actually considered an infallible part of the Catholic faith that 2 Peter was written by the Apostle Peter?

-Chris
 
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Is it actually considered an infallible part of the Catholic faith that 2 Peter was written by the Apostle Peter?

Yes it is, unless you believe Scripture to not be an infallible part of the Catholic faith:

1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours

and:

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION
ON DIVINE REVELATION
DEI VERBUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED
BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 18, 1965,

CHAPTER II

HANDING ON DIVINE REVELATION

7. In His gracious goodness, God has seen to it that what He had revealed for the salvation of all nations would abide perpetually in its full integrity and be handed on to all generations. Therefore Christ the Lord in whom the full revelation of the supreme God is brought to completion (see Cor. 1:20; 3:13; 4:6), commissioned the Apostles to preach to all men that Gospel which is the source of all saving truth and moral teaching, (1) and to impart to them heavenly gifts. This Gospel had been promised in former times through the prophets, and Christ Himself had fulfilled it and promulgated it with His lips. This commission was faithfully fulfilled by the Apostles who, by their oral preaching, by example, and by observances handed on what they had received from the lips of Christ, from living with Him, and from what He did, or what they had learned through the prompting of the Holy Spirit. The commission was fulfilled, too, by those Apostles and apostolic men who under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit committed the message of salvation to writing.

also:

Catechism of the Catholic Church
PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION ONE
"I BELIEVE" - "WE BELIEVE"

CHAPTER TWO
GOD COMES TO MEET MAN

ARTICLE 2
THE TRANSMISSION OF DIVINE REVELATION

III. THE INTERPRETATION OF THE HERITAGE OF FAITH

The heritage of faith entrusted to the whole of the Church

84 The apostles entrusted the "Sacred deposit" of the faith (the depositum fidei),45 contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church.


Do you reject both the witness of the Scripture and your own Church?
 
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kern

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Originally posted by The Squalid Wanderer

Do you reject both the witness of the Scripture and your own Church?

What is an "apostolic man"? A devout 2nd-century Christian writing a pseudonymous letter? It doesn't necessarily seem to me that there's a contradiction. Didn't the Pope say at one point that biblical criticism was good?

-Chris
 
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Dear Kern,

Are you going to select that one quote, out of context, and apart from the other quotes, and then state that the case is uncertain?

But so as to aid your understanding, here is another authorized translation of the same text (naturally, the letter was written in Latin first and what we are reading is a translation), this time as quoted in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing".

The other men associated with the apostles are none other than what I have been referring to all along, men like Luke and Mark, who, while not Apostolic themselves, were intimately associated with men who were Apostles, and thus wrote under direction of Apostles.

Please consider the context of the quote, as well as the material available in the other quotes. Taken together they should not leave any reasonable individual in doubt as to the position of the Catholic Church.

P.S., as for the Pope's approval of Biblical Criticism, let us be mindful that there there are two types of biblical criticism, higher and lower.  There is no problem with the lower, or textual biblical criticism, since it's aim is to recover the text in it's original form.  But what we have been discussing is higher criticism, whose aim more often than not is to question tradition itself concerning the authenticity of the documents. 

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

In reaching its results it sets more store on evidences internal to the books than on external traditions or attestations, and its undeniable effect is to depreciate tradition in a great measure, so that there exists a sharply-drawn line between the exegetes of the critical and those of the traditional school. In the process by which the critics arrive at their conclusions there is a divergence of attitude towards the supernatural element in Holy Writ. Those of the rationalistic wing ignore, and at least tacitly deny, inspiration in the theological meaning of the term, and without any doctrinal preoccupations, except some hostile to the supernatural, proceed to apply critical tests to the Scriptures, in the same manner as if they were merely human productions.

With the exception of Abbé Loisy (who was excommunicated in 1908) and his followers, no Catholic scholar has claimed autonomy or complete independence for criticism, all proceeding on the principle that it cannot validly, and may not lawfully, contradict the established dogmatic teaching of the Church.
 
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