1Corinthians 15:28 KJV

[he-man]

1 Corinthians 15:28: When Christ delivers up the Kingdom to God then he will be subject to God so that God may be all in all John 14:28: for the Father is greater than I.

 

[Albion]

1 Corinthians 15:28: When Christ delivers up the Kingdom to God then he will be subject to God....

I notice that 1 Corinthians 15:28 doesn't agree with your paraphrase/version of it here, however.

 

[he-man]

I notice that 1 Corinthians 15:28 doesn't agree with your paraphrase/version of it here, however.

You are amiss for he said:
John 17:3; that you may know the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent; John 20:17 I ascend unto my Father and your Father; to my Father and your Father; John 5:19 The Son can do nothing of himself..; John 16:5 I go to Him that sent me; John 16:28 I go to the Father..; Ephesians 1:17 The God of our Lord, Jesus Christ

 

[Albion]

Just a minute. That isn't what you wrote out in the first post and to which I responded. That was misleading for it juxtaposed Jesus with "God" as opposed to the Father. The passage is about the union of and joint purposes of the Son and the Father, the persons of the one God.

 

[he-man]

Just a minute. That isn't what you wrote out in the first post and to which I responded. That was misleading for it juxtaposed Jesus with "God" as opposed to the Father. The passage is about the union of and joint purposes of the Son and the Father, the persons of the one God.

No, not persons plural, God is not a person, John 4 24; God is Spirit [NASB]; Isaiah 61;1The spirit of Jehovah is upon me He hath anointed me; John 13:16; neither is he that is sent greater than He who sent him; Luke 24:39 a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see me having.

 

[Albion]

No, not persons plural, God is not a person

Yes, persons. But we do not mean by that word that there are three separate individuals in the way that we usually intend when we call humans "persons." I realize, of course, that Jehovah's Witnesses have a different view, but I'm explaining this in the conventional way, like the Nicene Creed does.

 

[he-man]

Yes, persons. But we do not mean by that word that there are three separate individuals in the way that we usually intend when we call humans "persons." I realize, of course, that Jehovah's Witnesses have a different view, but I'm explaining this in the conventional way, like the Nicene Creed does.

Don't know about JW's but God is not a person, Christ is His son and is not sitting on his own right hand but is now sitting on the right hand of God. When Christ shall have put down all things, then he also will give up the Kingdom and be subject to God because Christ is the head of the church and God is the head of Christ and as John says He is not a person or a part of any false Trinity: John 4:24 God is a Spirit

 

[Albion]

Don't know about JW's but God is not a person, Christ is His son and is not sitting on his own right hand but is now sitting on the right hand of God. When Christ shall have put down all things, then he also will give up the Kingdom and be subject to God because Christ is the head of the church and God is the head of Christ and as John says He is not a person or a part of any false Trinity: John 4:24 God is a Spirit

Well, most of us here are Trinitarian Christians, so that's part of my perspective; but to understand the word person it isnt necessary to believe in the Trinity or even accept any of the verses in Scripture that point to it. It is a Greek term and does not mean the same as is most often meant when we use the word in English.

 

[he-man]

Well, most of us here are Trinitarian Christians, so that's part of my perspective; but to understand the word person it isnt necessary to believe in the Trinity or even accept any of the verses in Scripture that point to it. It is a Greek term and does not mean the same as is most often meant when we use the word in English.

That is right but exactly what does it mean? It is substituted in the Bible for many other words, but the term "person" is not actually the translation in Greek it is G4383 προσρωπον face or ανθρωπος = Human being used to denote man, in Hebrew H6188 and H6440 it is פנה paniym or arel and is always singular. So what is your point and how does that even apply to Christ being subject to God and that God is a Spirit and not a man or person or part of the false Trinity?

 

[Albion]

That is right but exactly what does it mean?

However one understands the meaning, thinking of persona as referring to separate individuals is ruled out. There is only one God.

The most famous explanation of this three-in-one belief is to be found in the Nicene Creed.

 

[he-man]

However one understands the meaning, thinking of persona as referring to separate individuals is ruled out. There is only one God.
The most famous explanation of this three-in-one belief is to be found in the Nicene Creed.

So how does that even apply to Christ being subject to God and that God is a Spirit and not a man or person or a part of the false Trinity? You often hear Tertullian's (155 - 240) name in connection with this, but he was the first Latin writer to use the term (trinitas in his case), as well as the first to connect it with the word "persons." When was the Nicene creed instituted? 300 years after Christ by Constantine. Up until that time the word "Trinity" was not known. The word "trinity" does not occur in the Bible. In fact, the word Trinity did not come into common use as a religious term until centuries after the last books of the Bible were completed—long after the apostles of Christ were gone from the scene! [common use in intellectual discussion] and formal elucidation [clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries” (1996, “Trinity”). However, it wasn’t until 381, “at the Council of Constantinople, [that] the divinity of the Spirit was affirmed” Religious writer A.W. Tozer, in his book The Knowledge of the Holy, states that the Trinity is an “incomprehensible mystery” and that attempts to understand it “must remain forever futile.” He admits that churches, “without pretending to understand,” have nevertheless continued to teach this doctrine (1961, pp. 17-18).
Cyril Richardson, professor of church history at New York’s Union Theological Seminary, though a dedicated Trinitarian himself, said this in his book The Doctrine of The Trinity:
“My conclusion, then, about the doctrine of the Trinity is that it is an artificial construct . . . It produces confusion rather than clarification; and while the problems with which it deals are real ones, the solutions it offers are not illuminating. It has posed for many Christians dark and mysterious statements, which are ultimately meaningless, because it does not sufficiently discriminate in its use of terms” (1958, pp. 148-149). He also admitted, “Much of the defense of the Trinity as a ‘revealed’ doctrine, is really an evasion of the objections that can be brought against it” (p. 16). The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia acknowledges that “ ‘trinity’ is a second-century term found nowhere in the Bible, and the Scriptures present no finished trinitarian statement” (1988, Vol. 4, “Trinity,” p. 914). It would go far beyond the intention and thought-forms of the OT to suppose that a late-fourth-century or thirteenth-century Christian doctrine can be found there . . . Likewise, the NT does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity” (Richard McBrien, general editor, 1995, “God,” pp. 564-565). Martin Luther, the German priest who initiated the Protestant Reformation, conceded, “It is indeed true that the name ‘Trinity’ is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man” (reproduced in The Sermons of Martin Luther, John Lenker, editor, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406).
“God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth” (American King James Version×).

 

[Albion]

So how does that even apply to Christ being subject to God and that God is a Spirit and not a man or person or a part of the false Trinity?

Where people often go wrong with this subject is in not realizing or fully accepting of the fact that Christ had two complete natures. He was a real Man but also was God (as the Creed puts it, Very God of Very God).

 

[he-man]

Where people often go wrong with this subject is in not realizing or fully accepting of the fact that Christ had two complete natures. He was a real Man but also also God.

Christ was not also God he was not a spirit until after he ascended: Luke 24:39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”Matthew 5:18-20 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (19) Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (20) For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Acts of the Apostles10:42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. You often hear Tertullian's (155 - 240) name in connection with this, but he was the first Latinwriter to use the term (trinitas in his case), as well as the first to connect it with the word "persons." When was the Nicene creed instituted? 300 years after Christ by Constantine. Up until that time the word "Trinity" was not known. The word "trinity" does not occur in the Bible. In fact, the word Trinity did not come into common use as a religious term until centuries after the last books of the Bible were completed—long after the apostles of Christ were gone from the scene! [common use in intellectual discussion] and formal elucidation [clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries” (1996, “Trinity”). However, it wasn’t until 381, “at the Council of Constantinople, [that] the divinity of the Spirit was affirmed” Religious writer A.W. Tozer, in his book The Knowledge of the Holy, states that the Trinity is an “incomprehensible mystery” and that attempts to understand it “must remain forever futile.” He admits that churches, “without pretending to understand,” have nevertheless continued to teach this doctrine (1961, pp. 17-18). Cyril Richardson, professor of church history at New York’s Union Theological Seminary, though a dedicated Trinitarian himself, said this in his bookThe Doctrine of The Trinity: “My conclusion, then, about the doctrine of the Trinity is that it is an artificial construct . . . It produces confusion rather than clarification; and while the problems with which it deals are real ones, the solutions it offers are not illuminating. It has posed for many Christians dark and mysterious statements, which are ultimately meaningless, because it does not sufficiently discriminate in its use of terms” (1958, pp. 148-149). He also admitted, “Much of the defense of the Trinity as a ‘revealed’ doctrine, is really an evasion of the objections that can be brought against it” (p. 16). The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia acknowledges that “ ‘trinity’ is a second-century term found nowhere in the Bible, and the Scriptures present no finished trinitarian statement” (1988, Vol. 4, “Trinity,” p. 914). It would go far beyond the intention and thought-forms of the OT to suppose that a late-fourth-century or thirteenth-century Christian doctrine can be found there . . . Likewise, the NTdoes not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity” (Richard McBrien, general editor, 1995, “God,” pp. 564-565). Martin Luther, the German priest who initiated the Protestant Reformation, conceded, “It is indeed true that the name ‘Trinity’ is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man” (reproduced in The Sermons of Martin Luther, John Lenker, editor, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406). “God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth” (American King James Version×).

 

[Albion]

Martin Luther, the German priest who initiated the Protestant Reformation, conceded, “It is indeed true that the name ‘Trinity’ is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man” (reproduced in The Sermons of Martin Luther, John Lenker, editor, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406).

Luther was only speaking of the word Trinity not being in Scripture. He believed that the Bible teaches that the concept we call by the term "Trinity" is there, as it certainly is.

 

[he-man]

Luther was only speaking of the word Trinity not being in Scripture. He believed that the Bible teaches that the concept we call by the term "Trinity" is there, as it certainly is.

Do not try to alter what the Bible says: Hebrews 2:7 “You have made him for a little while lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor, And you [God] have appointed him over the works of Your hands; Christ was not also God he was not a spirit until after he ascended: Luke 24:39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” Matthew 5:18-20 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (19) Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (20) For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Acts of the Apostles10:42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.

 

[Albion]

Do not try to alter what the Bible says: Hebrews 2:7 “You have made him for a little while lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor, And you [God] have appointed him over the works of Your hands....

As I said before, it is important to keep in mind the fact that Christ was both Man and God. He was not some creation of God, not sent from God while not being God himself, and not a second god in some kind of divine duo. The meaning of that verse poses no problems at all for Trinitarians who are, at the same time, also aware of what else the Bible teaches about Christ.

 

[he-man]

As I said before, it is important to keep in mind the fact that Christ was both Man and God. He was not some creation of God, not sent from God while not being God himself, and not a second god in some kind of divine duo. The meaning of that verse poses no problems at all for Trinitarians who are, at the same time, also aware of what else the Bible teaches about Christ.

Christ was not also God he was not a spirit until after he ascended: Luke 24:39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” Matthew 5:18-20 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (19) Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (20) For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Acts of the Apostles10:42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.

 

[Bumble Bee]

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