20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

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sovereigngrace

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Most of revelation is the last few years just before Christ's return, and 1000 years and eternity after. Only the first few chapters and chapter 12 are historic.

You make the same mistake as the Preterists. The only difference is: they limit it to AD66-70 and you limit it to last 3 1/2 years.
 
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Timtofly

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Souls go to be with the Lord but it is taught in the bible that there is a physical resurrection of the body of those in Christ first, then 1000 years, then everyone else to stand judgement. What John saw in Revelation 6 after the 5th seal was not bodies but souls. He specified that they were souls so he knew by sight that there was something different about them, and they were clamoring for justice to be done and for their murders to be avenged, they were not overjoyed and happy, they were missing SOMETHING. There were tears to be wiped away, grief to be comforted, anger to be quenched. God told them to be patient.
So while departing from the body is better than living on earth, we are with the Lord, and we won't be in sin any longer, but we are not whole, we will be waiting for the redemption of our bodies before we are whole, before the Lord wipes away all tears and before there will never be sorrow or grief again. That all comes with the resurrection and is fulfilled completely with the new earth.

Now, note that in Revelation 7 there are a bunch of new people in heaven and John does NOT call these souls, just a great multitude. I believe this is the saints, both those who were dead in Christ, and those still alive at the time of the rapture after the 6th seal, note the change in tone between the disembodied souls.... and the redeemed which I believe have been resurrected in a body and are whole.

Revelation 6:9-11


These souls complain, they ask God for something they need, they are not whole, they are not fulfilled and full of joy, they have an unfulfilled need.

Now compare with Revelation 7:9-12


What a tone change! They go from complaint to praise, something happened to fulfill them to where they didn't have an unfulfilled need anymore. I believe having a body is the difference.

So this is not something that happens immediately after your death, but something we wait for, and will happen to all of us all at once.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Paul teaches both a physical resurrection later and each time a person in Christ physically dies. Which version of Paul is correct? Even your verse 52, states they will be raised incorruptible. Meaning they have been already changed. They will be raised, from where? Paradise. Except Paradise is where those alive will be changed and end up as well. That is the point, most refuse to see, because they have been taught wrong. The church will be in Paradise for the last 1000 years. Those amil are right in one thing, it will just be a day for them, if they are in Paradise. I doubt God will judge them for getting that time wrong. Some amil are wrong in other doctrine and theology though, so only God knows what will happen to them.

What those in the 5th seal are missing is their robe of white, not their incorruptible body. The robe of white is their spirit. Paul says there are two changes. We get a new physical body, and will put on our robe of white, our spirit will once more cover us in the light of God’s glorious image. There will no longer be a need for the sun or moon. We will be a body of light. Adam had that image in the Garden before he disobeyed. The sons of God on day six, both male and female had that image, and there were many created on day six, and Adam was one of them. That is the restoration of the 5th seal. In the Rapture of the 6th seal those alive and remain in Christ will be changed bodily and put on their spirit in the air. Also the 144K on earth will be sealed in a similar way. Then the 7th seal will unlock the Lamb's book of life. Then names will be blotted out as the Lamb and the 144K start the harvest and separate the sheep from the goats. The goats will be removed from the Lamb's book of life. The sheep will die and be raised at the resurrection in Revelation 20. When the 6 Trumpets are over, it will be 7 Thunders. This will be the harvest of the Nations. Will there be battles to fulfil more prophecy? We are not told. But the wheat will be harvested like the sheep and resurrected in the new Millennium. The tares burned with fire and removed from the Lamb's book of life. Then will come the celebration and the harvest of the 2 sickles, of the winepress of God’s wrath. Will there be anyone left on earth?

Satan has hedged his opportunity by causing the great falling away in 2 Thessalonians 2. The apostate church left millions of unharvested souls who will never be a part of the church now. These souls will get to spend 3.5 years with Satan in control of the whole world. Those who get their head chopped off will remain in the Lamb's book of life. Those who worship Satan will be removed from the Lamb's book of life. Those who endure to the end, will be removed from the Lamb's book of life, and all will be gathered and killed in the battle of Armageddon. That will complete the tribulation. That will complete Adam's fallen descendants born with a sinful nature. No more sin as in today's current condition. Will there be a consumation of all things in fire? It will not be a Flood. But the day after will be the new heavens and earth of Isaiah 65. This current world still has the last Millennium to get through. But this resurrection of Revelation 20 is not the church. It is the sheep, wheat, and those who refused to worship Satan, and were beheaded instead of wearing the mark 666.

These are not in glorified bodies. They have incorruptible bodies free from the nature of sin. They will repopulate the nations. They will be under the iron rod of Christ. There will be death, because Isaiah claims death is still considered a curse. It will not be like before Adam sinned, absolute perfection. And as pointed out, rebellion will be fomenting, and ready for Satan to once again deceive billions. Amil will not even accept this plan of God's, even though it has been written out by John as John actually witnessed it. It was placed in the Bible at the proper time. Can any one today accept anything as being inspired by God? Quite a few think they are, claim they are, and yet they still cannot agree on all points. If there is a concensus it is liable to be considered just a part of a one world religion, because no one trust any one else but their own understanding. We are, to the point, in the OT prophets, where every one did that which is right in their own eyes. Yet God warns us to never lean on our own understanding, but to trust in God, even if it does not make sense. When we acknowledge God, He will direct our path.
 
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BABerean2

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The church will be in Paradise for the last 1000 years. Those amil are right in one thing, it will just be a day for them, if they are in Paradise. I doubt God will judge them for getting that time wrong. Some amil are wrong in other doctrine and theology though, so only God knows what will happen to them.

Why do you continue to ignore the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18, which proves the book is not in chronological order?


.
 
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Timtofly

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I'm not sure where you're getting that Paul teaches individuals at their time of death undergo a physical resurrection, I only know that Paul taught that we would have a physical resurrection when Jesus comes back.
2 Corinthians 5:1-9. But John points out in the opening of the 5th seal, the only change is the robe of white. There is a body, but no robe of covering. John is not going to separate out a special group who gets a robe from the billions of saints of all time. All of Adam in Christ are under the alter. They all come under the Atonement. The Cross brought those before Christ since Adam, together with all who have died in Christ during the last 1990 years. It is a single group. The Rapture of Paul is the completion, because those living die, are changed in mid air, not naturally, because time is over for the church. The church is complete at the 6th seal. Flesh and blood can not enter Paradise. In seal 5, those in Paradise get their Glorified body. The spirit like a white robe is joined back with the incorruptible body. John's 5th and 6th seal covers both a resurrection and rapture. But they are not named. There is no contradiction to Paul's teachings. But right before it happens the wise virgins will comprehend both John and Paul were talking about the same event. They will be prepared.
 
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Timtofly

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Why do you continue to ignore the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18, which proves the book is not in chronological order?

I am not going to take Revelation 11 out of context. Are you? Those verses are the 24 elders singing Psalm 2. Did the judgment of the dead happen back in David’s time? All flesh is dead in Adam. We are the living dead, literally, for in Adam all are dead. The Trumpets and Thunders are the harvest of the dead into everlasting life or everlasting Death. No more waiting in sheol, those who die during this period are placed in Death. After the 7th seal is opened, names are going to be removed from the Lamb's book of life. From before the foundation of the world, all names have been sealed. Now the seals are broken and names can be removed. Now is the time of Capital Death. Ironic that those in sheol for 6000 years, their names are still there, but now in Revelation 11:18, humans die, and immediately judged, their names are removed and they are placed in Death for the next 1000 years. They will be judged again at the GWT, but their names will not be found, having been already removed (judged) by your verse, Revelation 11:18.

There is still chronological order. John is just setting up the events of the days, plural, of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Woe to those humans still alive on earth, dead in their sins. They are not redeemed, but will be judged according to their actions in Satan's 3.5 years. The only redemption will be having their heads chopped off before the mark 666 is branded on their foreheads by God. The mark is the curse on all of Adam's descendants. It only comes out after the end of the 6000 years is declared over. Think of it as an expiration date. Those humans are rotten to the core. So rotten it was like their names were never in the Lamb's book of life. Just read all the verses on those who let the mark happen and who worship Satan as their lord and master.
 
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Jamdoc

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2 Corinthians 5:1-9. But John points out in the opening of the 5th seal, the only change is the robe of white. There is a body, but no robe of covering. John is not going to separate out a special group who gets a robe from the billions of saints of all time. All of Adam in Christ are under the alter. They all come under the Atonement. The Cross brought those before Christ since Adam, together with all who have died in Christ during the last 1990 years. It is a single group. The Rapture of Paul is the completion, because those living die, are changed in mid air, not naturally, because time is over for the church. The church is complete at the 6th seal. Flesh and blood can not enter Paradise. In seal 5, those in Paradise get their Glorified body. The spirit like a white robe is joined back with the incorruptible body. John's 5th and 6th seal covers both a resurrection and rapture. But they are not named. There is no contradiction to Paul's teachings. But right before it happens the wise virgins will comprehend both John and Paul were talking about the same event. They will be prepared.

John also distinguishes them as souls. So I don't think they have a body. Paul was probably referring to the resurrection at Christ's return in the verses you said.
 
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BABerean2

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I am not going to take Revelation 11 out of context. Are you?

Based on Revelation 10:7, something special happens at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

In Revelation 11:15 it is the time the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever". How long is "forever"?

Shortly after we find the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others.

This is one of several visions of the Second Coming of Christ, found in the Book of Revolution.


.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Based on Revelation 10:7, something special happens at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

In Revelation 11:15 it is the time the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever". How long is "forever"?

Shortly after we find the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others.

This is one of several visions of the Second Coming of Christ, found in the Book of Revolution.


.

It is the end!
 
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Timtofly

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Based on Revelation 10:7, something special happens at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

In Revelation 11:15 it is the time the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever". How long is "forever"?

Shortly after we find the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others.

This is one of several visions of the Second Coming of Christ, found in the Book of Revolution.
Since 1000 years is an undetermined amount of time, forever would be symbolic for exactly 1000 years.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Since 1000 years is an undetermined amount of time, forever would be symbolic for exactly 1000 years.

No. It means a long indeterminate time before the second coming.
 
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keras

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Why do you continue to ignore the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18, which proves the book is not in chronological order?
Why do you constantly promote the final Judgment and the reign of King Jesus, before the Seven Bowls are over?
It is obvious that Revelation 11:15 is a Proclamation of what will happen after the rest of Revelation up to Rev 19:11, has taken place.
You just cannot squeeze in the Judgments and punishments at that point. Revelation 20:11-15 is clear, all that happens AFTER the Millennium.
 
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Jamdoc

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Why do you constantly promote the final Judgment and the reign of King Jesus, before the Seven Bowls are over?
It is obvious that Revelation 11:15 is a Proclamation of what will happen after the rest of Revelation up to Rev 19:11, has taken place.
You just cannot squeeze in the Judgments and punishments at that point. Revelation 20:11-15 is clear, tall that happens AFTER the Millennium.

They abstract the 1000 years into not being 1000 years, they do not believe scripture as it is written and seek alternative meanings because of unbelief.
Pray for them.
 
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BABerean2

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Why do you constantly promote the final Judgment and the reign of King Jesus, before the Seven Bowls are over?
It is obvious that Revelation 11:15 is a Proclamation of what will happen after the rest of Revelation up to Rev 19:11, has taken place.
You just cannot squeeze in the Judgments and punishments at that point. Revelation 20:11-15 is clear, all that happens AFTER the Millennium.

The only way you can make your viewpoint work is by ignoring what Paul said about the "flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and what Paul said about the judgment of the living, and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1.


That is why I constantly show the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
This is confirmed by Christ coming as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16.


Ignore all of those passages and maybe you can get somebody to believe the book is in chronological order.

.
 
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Timtofly

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The only way you can make your viewpoint work is by ignoring what Paul said about the "flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and what Paul said about the judgment of the living, and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1.


That is why I constantly show the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
This is confirmed by Christ coming as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16.


Ignore all of those passages and maybe you can get somebody to believe the book is in chronological order.

What if Revelation 16:15 was an inside joke between John and Paul? God does have a sense of humor.
 
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keras

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The only way you can make your viewpoint work is by ignoring what Paul said about the "flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and what Paul said about the judgment of the living, and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1.
Once again I disprove your wrong belief of 2 Thess 1:6-10, being a Return prophecy. It is a Sixth Seal prophecy, proved by verse 10; where only His faithful people see Him.
In 2 Timothy 4:1, it says; He will judge the living and the dead, after His coming appearance and reign.....
That will be the GWT Judgment; AFTER the Millennium; Revelation 20:11-15
Any other ideas about the timing of this Judgment, is a direct contradiction of Scripture.
What if Revelation 16:15 was an inside joke between John and Paul? God does have a sense of humor.
Rev 16:15 is in parenthesis, [brackets] in my RE Bible. Jesus does NOT Return unexpectedly.
I view that verse as an admonition for us to be ready for all the Revelation events, commencing with the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal.
 
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Jamdoc

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The only way you can make your viewpoint work is by ignoring what Paul said about the "flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and what Paul said about the judgment of the living, and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1.


That is why I constantly show the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
This is confirmed by Christ coming as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16.


Ignore all of those passages and maybe you can get somebody to believe the book is in chronological order.

.

We don't ignore, we see the same principle that made the old testament prophets look like everything in their prophecies happen at once and we see that there will be more than 1 coming of Christ. Your error is to be like the people in Christ's time who expected ALL messianic prophecy to be fulfilled right then and there, while Jesus told them that he would die and be resurrected in 3 days and would ascend to heaven and then return at a later date.
You've taken a lot of prophecy to already have been fulfilled and then see the only outstanding prophecies as all happening at once in an instant. It's bad optics, you see the peaks but not the valleys in the distance.

all we're doing is seeing a valley, 1000 years, as written by John in Revelation, between the 2nd coming, and the destruction of the earth by fire, because that is how Revelation 20 clearly states it.
You on the other hand want to write that chapter off as being abstract and suck the meaning right out of it.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Why do you constantly promote the final Judgment and the reign of King Jesus, before the Seven Bowls are over?
It is obvious that Revelation 11:15 is a Proclamation of what will happen after the rest of Revelation up to Rev 19:11, has taken place.
You just cannot squeeze in the Judgments and punishments at that point. Revelation 20:11-15 is clear, all that happens AFTER the Millennium.

We are looking at symbolic parallels.
 
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Jamdoc

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We are looking at symbolic parallels.

and we are looking at it as God's word and what will actually happen, rather than making it abstract so we can try to apply PROPHECY written in 90+ AD to events that happened in the 30's-70AD.
We read scripture get our world view from it. You take your world view and jam it into scripture any way you can make it fit, stretching and pulling, contracting and cramming where you see fit.

We look at Revelation 20 and apply it to our theology.
You look at Revelation 20 and attempt to ignore it as much as possible and attempt to fit a square peg in a round hole, forcing a theological view on it rather than adapting your theological view in light of it.
 
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keras

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We are looking at symbolic parallels.
Symbols have a basic meaning, they must refer to some kind of actual situation.
Looking at 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, that prophecy isn't symbolic al all, it describes the Sixth Seal Lord's Day of wrath by fire and then how He will be revealed to His faithful people. Revelation 14:1 and Isaiah 24:23 parallel this.
 
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