20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

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sovereigngrace

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Stop avoiding and use gospel and epistolic evidence to defend your position. If you don't want to, that's fine, just say so.

HERE'S MY EXAMPLE:

In the last days (acts 2:16-17, 1 Corinthians 10:11, 1 John 2:18, Hebrews 9:26), Jesus's 1st advent resulted in Satan being bound (matthew 12:29) and cast out (John 12:31-32), satan coming to persecute and deceive (John 14:30, 1 thessalonians 2:18, Ephesians 2:2, 2 Corinthians 11:12-15, revelation 2:13, 1 Peter 5:8), the saints overcoming by being born again (ephesians 2:4-7, ephesians 6:11, James 4:7), no one being able to accuse the saints because of Jesus (romans 8:33-34), and satan soon to be crushed (romans 16:20).

Thus I interpret revelation 20, through the lens of the gospel and epistolic narrative and not the other way around.

What gospel and epistolic evidence do you use support your position on the millennium?




Never claimed the day of judgment has already happened. quit with the strawman arguments, and actually address the the issues I bring up.

Where does Jude 1:6 or 2 Peter 2:4 mention the release of demons for a little season prior to judgment in order to support your understanding of revelation 20? I keep asking this, and you keep avoiding.......



Already addressed. Please re read point 3 of post 586.



Again, for the umpteenth time, 2 thessalonians makes no mention of satan being released from the pit. Premils use this same controversial verse to support their position. You using it to defend your position does nothing to add to the conversation. IT'S A CONTROVERSIAL VERSE WITH MULTIPLE INTERPRETATIONS THAT EACH ESCHATOLOGICAL VIEW USES TO DEFEND THEIR OWN POSITION.



Still waiting for you to demonstrate gospel and epistolic evidence for your position.......

I will take your avoidance as an admission that Full Preterism is unbiblical and that the Jesuit teaching of Steve Hahn that you are espousing has no basis in sound evangelical doctrine. I would advise you to throw The Ignatius Catholic Study Bible in the trash can and start reading the Holy Bible.

Your foolish hermeneutics requiring a mention of Satan little season in the gospels for you to accept it shows how dangerous Hahn's doctrine actually is. It is nonsensical. Also, you made no attempt to address the release of Satan and his minions from the abyss in Rev 9. You have to avoid that because it exposes Hahn's doctrine. 2 Thess 2 shows the removing of the restraint upon the kingdom of darkness.
 
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sovereigngrace

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how do you address Isaiah 65:20, where #1, there's still sinners in this prophetic passage, living to 100 and being accursed, and there's #2, people dying at 100 and still being considered children, they died "young"
There is no death in eternity, that passes away.

Simple! Have you taken the time to examine the original Hebrew? Here are my findings:

Death on the new earth???

Let us look at the challenging aspect of Isaiah 65:20. It says, “the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.” This verse has confused many Bible students over the years because of its seeming contradictory wording. Whilst Premillennialists normally advance Isaiah 65 and 66 to support their millennial viewpoint, neither chapter makes the slightest reference to an earthly millennium kingdom after the Second Coming. Rather, both commence by speaking of this presence age and terminate by speaking of the new heaven and the new earth. Neither chapter knows anything of a future millennium. Whilst it is difficult to dissect every minute detail in a passage like this, we know that the information in view in this prophetic reading is definitely describing the period of the “new heavens and a new earth.”

Let us have a literal word-by-word look at the Hebrew pertaining to Isaiah 65:20.

Lo'- yihªyeh mishaam `owd `uwl yaamiym wªzaaqeen 'ªsher
Not become thence more babe days, old man after


What is this telling us?

Basically: a child will never become old on the new earth.

Lo'- yªmalee''et- yaamaayw Kiy hana`ar ben- mee'aah shaanaah yaamuwt
Not reach your days like the child old an hundred years die


What is this telling us?

The exact same thing only in different terms.

This is called synonymous parallelism. It is telling us that a child will never become old on the new earth. This line reinforces what has just been said. It confirms the thought of the impending reality of no more death in the eternal state for the righteous. In eternity there will be no more aging or dying. It is not going to be like our corrupt age where infants eventually get old. It will not be like the here-and-now where a man could live to be an old person of a hundred years of age and then die.

This passage is actually saying the opposite to what many think. What this is saying is: there will be no more ageing, curse or death on the new earth. Every glorified saints will have come to full maturity in Christ with their new perfect eternal bodies. It is the next line of Isaiah 65:20 that has confused many, because the translators have not interpreted it in a literal word-for-word sense. It is not saying there will be more babies, death and old men. It is saying the opposite to what they are alleging. It is saying that there will be no more aging: children getting old, old people and people dying! It is describing eternity to an Old Testament audience in terms they can grasp.

The new heavens and new earth will indeed be a glorious victorious perfect state where death is unknown. God is saying that the eternal state will actually be free of death for young and old alike. This passage is telling us that there will be no more death on the new earth! The Hebrew word Lo' (Strong’s 3808) means “no” or “not.” The word is a simple negation. The word is found twice in this much-debated new heavens and new earth verse.

Debate in Isaiah 65:20 centers in on the use of the original word yaamuw meaning “die” or “death.” What should we relate it to? Is there indeed “death” on the new earth? Also, should the death be related to the “child” in the second phrase or the “sinner” in the third phrase? What is more, in what way should it read? I must admit, if we are to read it in its most natural way it fits perfectly with the context. So why change it? I believe it should be applied to the “child” as it should agree with the first phrase that is simply a reinforcement of the same truth. It then fits perfectly with the whole overall teaching of the prophet on the perfection and bliss of the eternal state.

No (Lo') longer will an infant become like an old man,
No (Lo') longer will a child reach one hundred and die.


The original Hebrew does not give us any reason to attribute death to the “child” in this second line. In fact, it does not fit the whole context which is evidently speaking of the removal of ageing and death on the new earth. Interpreting it as we have, seems to (1) match the original, (2) make sense to its context, and (3) taps into the thrust of what the prophet was trying to relay. We need to remind ourselves that the whole idea here is describing the incredible eternal deliverance from the curse of corruption and the joy that “the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind” on the “new earth.”
 
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Jamdoc

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Simple! Have you taken the time to examine the original Hebrew? Here are my findings:

Death on the new earth???

Let us look at the challenging aspect of Isaiah 65:20. It says, “the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.” This verse has confused many Bible students over the years because of its seeming contradictory wording. Whilst Premillennialists normally advance Isaiah 65 and 66 to support their millennial viewpoint, neither chapter makes the slightest reference to an earthly millennium kingdom after the Second Coming. Rather, both commence by speaking of this presence age and terminate by speaking of the new heaven and the new earth. Neither chapter knows anything of a future millennium. Whilst it is difficult to dissect every minute detail in a passage like this, we know that the information in view in this prophetic reading is definitely describing the period of the “new heavens and a new earth.”

Let us have a literal word-by-word look at the Hebrew pertaining to Isaiah 65:20.

Lo'- yihªyeh mishaam `owd `uwl yaamiym wªzaaqeen 'ªsher
Not become thence more babe days, old man after


What is this telling us?

Basically: a child will never become old on the new earth.

Lo'- yªmalee''et- yaamaayw Kiy hana`ar ben- mee'aah shaanaah yaamuwt
Not reach your days like the child old an hundred years die


What is this telling us?

The exact same thing only in different terms.

This is called synonymous parallelism. It is telling us that a child will never become old on the new earth. This line reinforces what has just been said. It confirms the thought of the impending reality of no more death in the eternal state for the righteous. In eternity there will be no more aging or dying. It is not going to be like our corrupt age where infants eventually get old. It will not be like the here-and-now where a man could live to be an old person of a hundred years of age and then die.

This passage is actually saying the opposite to what many think. What this is saying is: there will be no more ageing, curse or death on the new earth. Every glorified saints will have come to full maturity in Christ with their new perfect eternal bodies. It is the next line of Isaiah 65:20 that has confused many, because the translators have not interpreted it in a literal word-for-word sense. It is not saying there will be more babies, death and old men. It is saying the opposite to what they are alleging. It is saying that there will be no more aging: children getting old, old people and people dying! It is describing eternity to an Old Testament audience in terms they can grasp.

The new heavens and new earth will indeed be a glorious victorious perfect state where death is unknown. God is saying that the eternal state will actually be free of death for young and old alike. This passage is telling us that there will be no more death on the new earth! The Hebrew word Lo' (Strong’s 3808) means “no” or “not.” The word is a simple negation. The word is found twice in this much-debated new heavens and new earth verse.

Debate in Isaiah 65:20 centers in on the use of the original word yaamuw meaning “die” or “death.” What should we relate it to? Is there indeed “death” on the new earth? Also, should the death be related to the “child” in the second phrase or the “sinner” in the third phrase? What is more, in what way should it read? I must admit, if we are to read it in its most natural way it fits perfectly with the context. So why change it? I believe it should be applied to the “child” as it should agree with the first phrase that is simply a reinforcement of the same truth. It then fits perfectly with the whole overall teaching of the prophet on the perfection and bliss of the eternal state.

No (Lo') longer will an infant become like an old man,
No (Lo') longer will a child reach one hundred and die.


The original Hebrew does not give us any reason to attribute death to the “child” in this second line. In fact, it does not fit the whole context which is evidently speaking of the removal of ageing and death on the new earth. Interpreting it as we have, seems to (1) match the original, (2) make sense to its context, and (3) taps into the thrust of what the prophet was trying to relay. We need to remind ourselves that the whole idea here is describing the incredible eternal deliverance from the curse of corruption and the joy that “the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind” on the “new earth.”

and the part about the sinners who live to 100? The new earth has no sinners.
 
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sovereigngrace

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and the part about the sinners who live to 100? The new earth has no sinners.

After talking about the righteous and their eternal bliss the prophet then turns to the awful fate of the wicked.

Isaiah 65:20 says: “the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.”

The Hebrew literally reads:

wªhachowTe ben- mee'aah shaanaah yªqulaa

the sinner an hundred years old [shall be] accursed

The Hebrew word yªqulaa simply means “accursed.”

The Hebrew word wªhachowTe simply means "sinner."

There is no mention here of the word “death” or “die” in the Hebrew!

The inclusion of the phrase “Accursed an hundred years old sinner” is simply a solemn reminder to the reader that the fate of the unbeliever is starkly different to that being depicted for the believer on the new earth. In the midst of his joy at the revelation of the new earth the Old Testament prophet compares the bliss, blessing and perfection of the glorified new earth and the horror of the fate of the wicked in hell. The solemn thought is: the eternal horror and hopelessness that will be the lot of the wicked is not just for a short time, it is forever. There is no sense that the wicked are on the new earth here. Isaiah is not describing more of the same as Premil teaches. The new earth is not a repeat or rehash of this corruptible age. This must be forced into the text.
 
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Jamdoc

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After talking about the righteous and their eternal bliss the prophet then turns to the awful fate of the wicked.

Isaiah 65:20 says: “the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.”

The Hebrew literally reads:

wªhachowTe ben- mee'aah shaanaah yªqulaa

the sinner an hundred years old [shall be] accursed

The Hebrew word yªqulaa simply means “accursed.”

The Hebrew word wªhachowTe simply means "sinner."

There is no mention here of the word “death” or “die” in the Hebrew!

The inclusion of the phrase “Accursed an hundred years old sinner” is simply a solemn reminder to the reader that the fate of the unbeliever is starkly different to that being depicted for the believer on the new earth. In the midst of his joy at the revelation of the new earth the Old Testament prophet compares the bliss, blessing and perfection of the glorified new earth and the horror of the fate of the wicked in hell. The solemn thought is: the eternal horror and hopelessness that will be the lot of the wicked is not just for a short time, it is forever. There is no sense that the wicked are on the new earth here. Isaiah is not describing more of the same as Premil teaches. The new earth is not a repeat or rehash of this corruptible age. This must be forced into the text.

But there aren't supposed to be sinners at all in the new earth.
 
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BABerean2

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But there aren't supposed to be sinners at all in the new earth.

If you are not sure of the interpretation of one verse within a passage, the context within the passage should reveal the truth.
How does the passage begin, and end?

The passage begins with the creation of the New Heavens and the New Earth.
The passage ends with a reference to the removal of the curse.

Therefore, we should see that verse 20 begins with a negative statement, which means those things that follow the word "thence" will not be found in the New Heavens and the New Earth. If your interpretation of verse 20 runs counter to verse 19, and the rest of the passage, then your interpretation cannot be correct.


Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

.
 
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Jamdoc

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If you are not sure of the interpretation of one verse within a passage, the context within the passage should reveal the truth.
How does the passage begin, and end?

The passage begins with the creation of the New Heavens and the New Earth.
The passage ends with a reference to the removal of the curse.

Therefore, we should see that verse 20 begins with a negative statement, which means those things that follow the word "thence" will not be found in the New Heavens and the New Earth. If your interpretation of verse 20 runs counter to verse 19, and the rest of the passage, then your interpretation cannot be correct.


Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

.

Ultimately it all still leaves Revelation 20, which you guys pretty much have to throw out as meaningless because it otherwise stands out.
 
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BABerean2

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Ultimately it all still leaves Revelation 20, which you guys pretty much have to throw out as meaningless because it otherwise stands out.


Is Revelation 20 full of symbolic language?


Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Is the key in the verse above made of brass, like a key from the hardware store?

Is the chain in the verse above made of steel, like a chain from the hardware store? We know from Mark chapter 5 that demonic spirits can break literal chains. Do you think a literal steel chain can bind Satan?


Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Is Satan a giant fire-breathing lizard?

Is Satan bound with a literal chain, like the one broken by the demonic spirit in Mark 5:4?



Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Is there a hole on the earth that has no bottom?
Is this same bottomless pit described in Revelation 9:11?

Do you think a real steel chain is removed from Satan, even though a chain could not bind a demonic spirit in Mark 5:4?


Do you expect us to believe all of Revelation chapter 20 uses literal language, or will you acknowledge at least some of the language is symbolic?


There is a difference between "
throwing out" a passage of scripture, and acknowledging its symbolic nature. Each of those symbols has a meaning. For example, we understand the word "dragon" refers to Satan in the Book of Revelation. Does the term "bottomless pit" also have the same meaning throughout the Book?

Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

.
 
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claninja

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I will take your avoidance as an admission that Full Preterism is unbiblical

I agree that full preterism is unbiblical, so not sure what your getting at with this logical fallacy.

and that the Jesuit teaching of Steve Hahn that you are espousing has no basis in sound evangelical doctrine. I would advise you to throw The Ignatius Catholic Study Bible in the trash can and start reading the Holy Bible.

Well, it’s clear by the statement you have never read Steve Hahn.

Steven Hahns view of the millennium is pretty traditional of Amil.


Your foolish hermeneutics requiring a mention of Satan little season in the gospels for you to accept it shows how dangerous Hahn's doctrine actually is. It is nonsensical.



It’s foolish to use scripture to interpret scripture? I thought one of your own rules was to use clear scripture from the gospels and epistles to help understand the parabolic and symbolic language of revelation?

the gospels and epistles are clear that Satan was already deceiving and persecuting in the 1st century.

Also, you made no attempt to address the release of Satan and his minions from the abyss in Rev 9.


Correct, I didn’t attempt to address YOUR interpretation of another symbolic and obscure passage, that Already has hundreds of different interpretations, So why is yours, without the use of gospel and epistolic evidence, the correct one?

Do you believe the events of the first woe ( 5th trumpet, king of the abyss) are the same as the 2nd woe (6th trumpet, beast coming out of the abyss).

Without gospel and epistolic evidence, your view of revelation just becomes another one of the personal interpretations out there, so why should we trust yours over someone else’s?


You have to avoid that because it exposes Hahn's doctrine. 2 Thess 2 shows the removing of the restraint upon the kingdom of darkness

again, it doesn’t seem you actually know what Steven Hahn believes by this statement.
 
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Jamdoc

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Is Revelation 20 full of symbolic language?


Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Is the key in the verse above made of brass, like a key from the hardware store?

Is the chain in the verse above made of steel, like a chain from the hardware store? We know from Mark chapter 5 that demonic spirits can break literal chains. Do you think a literal steel chain can bind Satan?


Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Is Satan a giant fire-breathing lizard?

Is Satan bound with a literal chain, like the one broken by the demonic spirit in Mark 5:4?



Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Is there a hole on the earth that has no bottom?
Is this same bottomless pit described in Revelation 9:11?

Do you think a real steel chain is removed from Satan, even though a chain could not bind a demonic spirit in Mark 5:4?


Do you expect us to believe all of Revelation chapter 20 uses literal language, or will you acknowledge at least some of the language is symbolic?


There is a difference between "
throwing out" a passage of scripture, and acknowledging its symbolic nature. Each of those symbols has a meaning. For example, we understand the word "dragon" refers to Satan in the Book of Revelation. Does the term "bottomless pit" also have the same meaning throughout the Book?

Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

.

A lot is symbollic but I think the core meaning of those verses is that Satan is kept from influencing the world for 1000 years, and that there is 1000 years between the first resurrection and the second resurrection.
 
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sovereigngrace

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But there aren't supposed to be sinners at all in the new earth.

The writer is simply making a comparison (in the midst of his joy at the thought of the new earth) between the bliss and perfection of the glorified new earth and the horror of the fate of the wicked in hell. There is no sense that the wicked are on the earth here.

The sinner will indeed be accursed in eternity. Throughout Scripture God concentrates on the elect, and often attaches a postscript in regard to the wicked. That is all we are looking at in the phrase: sinner old hundred years an Accursed.”

There is no record of death on the new earth for the elect in the original Hebrew; only for the wicked who are experiencing eternal wrath in the Lake of Fire. Here is a notable difference between Amil and Premil, Amils believe the wicked are all judged when Jesus comes and banished into a lost eternity, Premil on the other hand (amazingly) rewards the wicked at the end (especially those who fight against Jerusalem at the end) by allowing them to inherit the new earth. The gorge between these two views couldn't be further.

The result of the fall and the damage of the curse continue on, however, not on the new heavens and new earth. The wicked have their own eternal abode – the Lake of Fire. The wicked will remain in the awful ongoing reality of the curse for time and for eternity. This is too terrible to even contemplate. This text is definitely not saying there will be mortal sinners on the new earth after the Coming of Christ, as some argue. It is just saying sinners will remain accursed (even a hundred years after the appearing of the new heavens and earth). It could easily have said a thousand years or a million years. In short: They will remain accursed for all eternity.

So what is the meaning of Isaiah 65:20? It is simply presented in such a way as to indicate that there will be no ageing or death during the eternal state. It cannot in any way indicate that righteous children will die in eternity – a fact that few would deny. Such an absurd notion would obviously disregard plain truth, and contradict repeated Scripture to the contrary. This assumption is reinforced by the introductory language of same passage in question, which says, “there shall be no more thence an infant of days.” This seems to be worded in such a way as to in some way explain the great mystery of eternity. It appears to be contrasting what we on earth would deem long-life to what in eternity would be considered mere infancy. Scripture tells us, death is totally and finally destroyed at the Second Coming for the believer.

As we have already stated, we can be assured Scripture never in any place contradicts itself. Therefore, it is either our understanding that is limited or the original Hebrew that is imperfect. We know it can’t be the latter. Common-sense alone tells us there must either be infants after Christ’s coming or else no infants. There are plainly no in-betweens. Such an absurd notion is impossible. The language of Isaiah 65:20 seems to be used in order to impress the idea that there will be no more growing old and no dying during this time. Anyway, if a natural child was to literally live to be a hundred years old then it would no longer be a child. So, it seems to be a hyperbole statement used to underscore the spiritual truth that there will be no more death or sorrow.
 
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sovereigngrace

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A lot is symbollic but I think the core meaning of those verses is that Satan is kept from influencing the world for 1000 years, and that there is 1000 years between the first resurrection and the second resurrection.

It was through Christ’s death, burial and resurrection that Satan was bound from deceiving “the nations ethnos (or Gentiles) no more” (Revelation 20:3). This is confirmed in Matthew 28:19 where Christ commands his disciples (after his death, burial and resurrection): “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations (or) ethnos (or Gentiles), baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” No longer would the pagan nations of the world be drowned in complete darkness and be utterly deceived by the devil, as before. The un-blindfolding of the Gentiles (or nations) therefore unquestionably coincided with the binding of the devil’s previous extensive power; the historic defining moment being Christ’s devil defeating transaction at Calvary.

Galatians 3:13-14 says, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: that the blessing of Abraham might come on the ethnos (or) Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the spirit through faith.”

Calvary is identified here as the actual transaction that allowed the Gentile nations to receive the glorious Gospel of Christ. That momentous event wondrously precipitated the liberation of the once wholly blinded “nations” causing significant injury to the person and plans of the devil (as predicted in Genesis 3:15) and his once overwhelming hold upon the heathen. Satan has gone from being in total control of the nations to being seriously challenged in nearly every nation he once held. His territory is under serious assault with the notable growth of the Christian Church throughout the nations over this past 2,000 years. Where the Church exists in power, purity and perseverance, Satan has gone from being proactive to reactive. He doesn’t know who will be next to be delivered. He has gone from complete control of nations to partial control of nations. There is a light today in most nations. In many Gentile nations there is a significant testimony to saving faith in Christ. Countless have seen the light and walk in victory. Where there is a significant Christian influence, there is a significant restraint against evil. Believers are salt; salt stems putrification.

The devil’s kingdom is being assaulted, harassed, troubled, plundered and curtailed by the Church of Jesus Christ – wherever the redeemed of God are faithfully found on this earth today. Countless Gentile villages, towns, cities, provinces, states, principalities, nations and kingdoms that were once in complete darkness throughout the world have now got a faithful remnant resisting Satan’s every move. These were areas that he once ruled unchallenged, however today he deals with significant amounts of praying saints around the world that ensure his movement is no longer unrestrained. The Gentiles have saw a great light (as Christ promised) and deliverance and become a global experience. The Holy Spirit has spread through whole nations bringing millions to a knowledge and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. This was not the case before the cross.

The symbolic 1,000 yrs / Satan’s little season cover the intra-Advent period. Satan is spiritually bound during the symbolic thousand years to let the Gospel go out to the ethnos (or the Gentiles). He is then released for a little season following this period, up until the Coming of the Lord. Also, the beast (the world) and the false prophet (false religion) are active throughout the intra-Advent period as I keep demonstrating.
 
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claninja

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amillennialists, they either throw out Revelation 20 or abstract it to where the meaning isn't that Satan will deceive the nations no more for 1000 years.

Due to the symbolic an apocalyptic nature of revelation, Amils often try to use scripture from the gospels and epistles to understand the parabolic language.

the 1,000 years are found no where else in the Bible, expect for revelation 20. However, the events that occur within the 1,000 years are found in the gospels and epistles.

1.) Satan bound (matthew 12:29)
2.) First resurrection ( John 11:15, 1 Corinthians 15:20, ephesians 2:5)
3.) kingdom of priests (1 peter 2:9).

Thus, revelation 20 is interpreted through the lens of the gospels and epistles as a parable, and not new information.



and that there is 1000 years between the first resurrection and the second resurrection.

technically, the 1st and 2nd resurrections are not separated by only 1,000 years, but 1,000 years PLUS satan's little season.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Due to the symbolic an apocalyptic nature of revelation, Amils often try to use scripture from the gospels and epistles to understand the parabolic language.

the 1,000 years are found no where else in the Bible, expect for revelation 20. However, the events that occur within the 1,000 years are found in the gospels and epistles.

1.) Satan bound (matthew 12:29)
2.) First resurrection ( John 11:15, 1 Corinthians 15:20, ephesians 2:5)
3.) kingdom of priests (1 peter 2:9).

Thus, revelation 20 is interpreted through the lens of the gospels and epistles as a parable, and not new information.





technically, the 1st and 2nd resurrections are not separated by only 1,000 years, but 1,000 years PLUS satan's little season.

You are telling us nothing about the identity and location of events that come at the end of the millennium. When in history was Satan released from his restrains? When did the wicked surround the saints as the sand of the sea? What event? When did "the earth and the heaven" flee away "and there was found no place for them"? When was the physical resurrection of the mankind (when "the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead")? When was the general judgment of the mankind before the great white throne where "the dead, small and great" stood before God "and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works? When was "death and hell ... cast into the lake of fire"?
 
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Jamdoc

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It was through Christ’s death, burial and resurrection that Satan was bound from deceiving “the nations ethnos (or Gentiles) no more” (Revelation 20:3). This is confirmed in Matthew 28:19 where Christ commands his disciples (after his death, burial and resurrection): “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations (or) ethnos (or Gentiles), baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” No longer would the pagan nations of the world be drowned in complete darkness and be utterly deceived by the devil, as before. The un-blindfolding of the Gentiles (or nations) therefore unquestionably coincided with the binding of the devil’s previous extensive power; the historic defining moment being Christ’s devil defeating transaction at Calvary.

Galatians 3:13-14 says, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: that the blessing of Abraham might come on the ethnos (or) Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the spirit through faith.”

Calvary is identified here as the actual transaction that allowed the Gentile nations to receive the glorious Gospel of Christ. That momentous event wondrously precipitated the liberation of the once wholly blinded “nations” causing significant injury to the person and plans of the devil (as predicted in Genesis 3:15) and his once overwhelming hold upon the heathen. Satan has gone from being in total control of the nations to being seriously challenged in nearly every nation he once held. His territory is under serious assault with the notable growth of the Christian Church throughout the nations over this past 2,000 years. Where the Church exists in power, purity and perseverance, Satan has gone from being proactive to reactive. He doesn’t know who will be next to be delivered. He has gone from complete control of nations to partial control of nations. There is a light today in most nations. In many Gentile nations there is a significant testimony to saving faith in Christ. Countless have seen the light and walk in victory. Where there is a significant Christian influence, there is a significant restraint against evil. Believers are salt; salt stems putrification.

The devil’s kingdom is being assaulted, harassed, troubled, plundered and curtailed by the Church of Jesus Christ – wherever the redeemed of God are faithfully found on this earth today. Countless Gentile villages, towns, cities, provinces, states, principalities, nations and kingdoms that were once in complete darkness throughout the world have now got a faithful remnant resisting Satan’s every move. These were areas that he once ruled unchallenged, however today he deals with significant amounts of praying saints around the world that ensure his movement is no longer unrestrained. The Gentiles have saw a great light (as Christ promised) and deliverance and become a global experience. The Holy Spirit has spread through whole nations bringing millions to a knowledge and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. This was not the case before the cross.

The symbolic 1,000 yrs / Satan’s little season cover the intra-Advent period. Satan is spiritually bound during the symbolic thousand years to let the Gospel go out to the ethnos (or the Gentiles). He is then released for a little season following this period, up until the Coming of the Lord. Also, the beast (the world) and the false prophet (false religion) are active throughout the intra-Advent period as I keep demonstrating.

That's not "deceive the nations no more" that's "deceive the nations less" at best, and the language is not "deceive the believers no more" it's 'deceive the NATIONS no more" that is the world.
That's not what we see.
The symbolism we see in the chaining of Satan is that Jesus will actually be ruling the nations, not some intangible "spiritual" kingdom, but a tangible, physical kingdom on Earth. God created a tangible, physical world, and that is His to rule. That is what will restrain Satan, is that God directly rules the world that Satan has been used to running over history. Whether a person believes in God or Jesus as the son of God or they're an atheist seeing this "King" as an alien invader like Thanos from the Marvel movies, Jesus will be their ruler. In fact I think that's one of the deceptions that Satan is weaving through the world right now, through entertainment, I mean I love sci fi, but I always have to be conscious about some of the messages that many sci fi movies try to instill in people, such as all humans under 1 government, a future without Christianity, or a blending of multiple religions together (and usually without Christianity), and having all humans unite together to resist and rebel against an invasion coming from the sky. When Satan is loosed after the 1000 years, that is one of the deceptions that will be used, that Jesus and the elect are not the son of the God that created them and their fellow humans (that don't really share their biology, they don't age and die like anyone else, and they're able to do things that no human born in the last 1000 years is able to do, and they're all in positions of power) are not redeemed in Christ, but rather Alien invaders that they need to form a resistance against.

But without a millennial reign that actually prevents Satan from influencing the NATIONS, you are either throwing out Revelation 20 or spiritualizing it to being meaningless.
 
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That's not "deceive the nations no more" that's "deceive the nations less" at best, and the language is not "deceive the believers no more" it's 'deceive the NATIONS no more" that is the world.
That's not what we see.
The symbolism we see in the chaining of Satan is that Jesus will actually be ruling the nations, not some intangible "spiritual" kingdom, but a tangible, physical kingdom on Earth. God created a tangible, physical world, and that is His to rule. That is what will restrain Satan, is that God directly rules the world that Satan has been used to running over history. Whether a person believes in God or Jesus as the son of God or they're an atheist seeing this "King" as an alien invader like Thanos from the Marvel movies, Jesus will be their ruler. In fact I think that's one of the deceptions that Satan is weaving through the world right now, through entertainment, I mean I love sci fi, but I always have to be conscious about some of the messages that many sci fi movies try to instill in people, such as all humans under 1 government, a future without Christianity, or a blending of multiple religions together (and usually without Christianity), and having all humans unite together to resist and rebel against an invasion coming from the sky. When Satan is loosed after the 1000 years, that is one of the deceptions that will be used, that Jesus and the elect are not the son of the God that created them and their fellow humans (that don't really share their biology, they don't age and die like anyone else, and they're able to do things that no human born in the last 1000 years is able to do, and they're all in positions of power) are not redeemed in Christ, but rather Alien invaders that they need to form a resistance against.

But without a millennial reign that actually prevents Satan from influencing the NATIONS, you are either throwing out Revelation 20 or spiritualizing it to being meaningless.

Not so! Before the first advent the Gentiles were deceived and in darkness. After the Lords first advent the light shone throughout the nations. That is all it is speaking about.
 
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Jamdoc

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Not so! Before the first advent the Gentiles were deceived and in darkness. After the Lords first advent the light shone throughout the nations. That is all it is speaking about.
You and I have very drastically different standards when it comes to "no more".
By your standard Eternity will still have death, pain, sorrow, and crying, it'll just be less, even though the scripture says they'll be no more. Because if it says "no more" all it has to do to fulfill your standard for scripture is "it'll be less"

I mean let's take a look at what happened in the 1000 years since Christ was resurrected....
7th century AD... Islam is founded, the doctrine of the Qur'an given by a supposed Angel of light to an illiterate Muhammad, who at first thought he was demon possessed when an Angel grabbed him and demanded that he recite, and gave him the words.
Nah, this CAN'T be Satan's deception, he's bound at this point under the amillennialist view!
Whoops, 1.6 BILLION people have been deceived into following Islam.
The Babylonian Talmud, also written in the first few centuries AD, again, deception leading people away from true religion with half truths.
The millennium after Christ's resurrection is NOT a period of time where Satan didn't deceive the nations, and he has continued to do so all along the way. Mormonism, New Age, Wicca gaining popularity, false religion that bears the mark of the Satan deceiving the nations is EVERYWHERE.
 
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claninja

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You are telling us nothing about the identity and location of events that come at the end of the millennium. When in history was Satan released from his restrains? When did the wicked surround the saints as the sand of the sea? What event? When did "the earth and the heaven" flee away "and there was found no place for them"? When was the physical resurrection of the mankind (when "the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead")? When was the general judgment of the mankind before the great white throne where "the dead, small and great" stood before God "and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works? When was "death and hell ... cast into the lake of fire"?

Satan's little season is the focus. Let’s try not to stray. We can have those questions about the general judgment, the book of life, hades and death thrown into the lake of fire at some other point if you wish, but let's focus on satan's little season.

According to revelation 20, satan's little season to gather those for war against the saints occurs upon fulfillment of the millennium.

Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.

Paul compares the Jews hindering them from telling the gentiles about the gospel to Satan obstructing his mission.

1 thessalonians 2:14-18 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Judea that are in Christ Jesus. You suffered from your own countrymen the very things they suffered from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and drove us out as well. They are displeasing to God and hostile to all men, hindering us from telling the Gentiles how they may be saved. As a result, they continue to heap up their sins to full capacity; the utmost wrath has come upon them.c Brothers, although we were torn away from you for a short time (in person, not in heart), our desire to see you face to face was even more intense. For we wanted to come to you—indeed I, Paul, tried again and again—but Satan obstructed us.

Paul states the satan was already at work in the sons of disobedience
Ephesians 2:2 in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

Paul states satan was already able to deceive by masquerading as angel of light, and so his servants also masqueraded as servants of light.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their actions.

According to Jesus, Satan had authority in Pergamum
Revelation 2:13 I know where you live, where the throne of Satan sits.

According to Peter, Satan was roaming like a lion looking to devour
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion,

Some were following satan already.
1 timothy 5:15 For some have already turned aside to follow Satan.

Apostacy had already begun in the 1st century as the spirit of the antichrist was then present.

1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

There is overwhelming evidence from the Epistles, that satan was already at work persecuting the church through his servants. This lines up very nicely with satan's little season post casting out of heaven at Christ's ascension.

Revelation 12:12, 17 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time.”
And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.


As to the event of revelation 20:9, where fire comes down and consumes those who persecuted the saints, this can be found in 2 Thessalonians 1-2. Notice the saints in the 1st century were already being persecuted by the sons of disobedience, and, according to Paul, God would grant them relief at his coming.


Revelation 20:9 And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

2 Thessalonians 1:4-8 That is why we boast among God’s churches about your perseverance and faith in the face of all the persecution and affliction you are enduring. All this is clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment. And so you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. After all, it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are oppressed and to us as well. This will take place when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in blazing fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

In the 1st century, the saints were already experiencing persecution at the hands of Satan as clearly evidenced by the epistles.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Satan's little season is the focus. Let’s try not to stray. We can have those questions about the general judgment, the book of life, hades and death thrown into the lake of fire at some other point if you wish, but let's focus on satan's little season.

According to revelation 20, satan's little season to gather those for war against the saints occurs upon fulfillment of the millennium.

Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.

Paul compares the Jews hindering them from telling the gentiles about the gospel to Satan obstructing his mission.

1 thessalonians 2:14-18 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Judea that are in Christ Jesus. You suffered from your own countrymen the very things they suffered from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and drove us out as well. They are displeasing to God and hostile to all men, hindering us from telling the Gentiles how they may be saved. As a result, they continue to heap up their sins to full capacity; the utmost wrath has come upon them.c Brothers, although we were torn away from you for a short time (in person, not in heart), our desire to see you face to face was even more intense. For we wanted to come to you—indeed I, Paul, tried again and again—but Satan obstructed us.

Paul states the satan was already at work in the sons of disobedience
Ephesians 2:2 in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

Paul states satan was already able to deceive by masquerading as angel of light, and so his servants also masqueraded as servants of light.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their actions.

According to Jesus, Satan had authority in Pergamum
Revelation 2:13 I know where you live, where the throne of Satan sits.

According to Peter, Satan was roaming like a lion looking to devour
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion,

Some were following satan already.
1 timothy 5:15 For some have already turned aside to follow Satan.

Apostacy had already begun in the 1st century as the spirit of the antichrist was then present.

1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

There is overwhelming evidence from the Epistles, that satan was already at work persecuting the church through his servants. This lines up very nicely with satan's little season post casting out of heaven at Christ's ascension.

Revelation 12:12, 17 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time.”
And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.


As to the event of revelation 20:9, where fire comes down and consumes those who persecuted the saints, this can be found in 2 Thessalonians 1-2. Notice the saints in the 1st century were already being persecuted by the sons of disobedience, and, according to Paul, God would grant them relief at his coming.


Revelation 20:9 And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

2 Thessalonians 1:4-8 That is why we boast among God’s churches about your perseverance and faith in the face of all the persecution and affliction you are enduring. All this is clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment. And so you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. After all, it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are oppressed and to us as well. This will take place when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in blazing fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

In the 1st century, the saints were already experiencing persecution at the hands of Satan as clearly evidenced by the epistles.

It is honestly like trying to get blood out of a stone trying to get you to answer some simple questions.

So what actual historic events saw the end of the millennium, the start of Satan's little season and the coming of Christ with fire to destroy the beast and introduce the eternal state and the NHNE? If Christ's resurrection started the thousand years, what terminated it and when?
 
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You and I have very drastically different standards when it comes to "no more".
By your standard Eternity will still have death, pain, sorrow, and crying, it'll just be less, even though the scripture says they'll be no more. Because if it says "no more" all it has to do to fulfill your standard for scripture is "it'll be less"

I mean let's take a look at what happened in the 1000 years since Christ was resurrected....
7th century AD... Islam is founded, the doctrine of the Qur'an given by a supposed Angel of light to an illiterate Muhammad, who at first thought he was demon possessed when an Angel grabbed him and demanded that he recite, and gave him the words.
Nah, this CAN'T be Satan's deception, he's bound at this point under the amillennialist view!
Whoops, 1.6 BILLION people have been deceived into following Islam.
The Babylonian Talmud, also written in the first few centuries AD, again, deception leading people away from true religion with half truths.
The millennium after Christ's resurrection is NOT a period of time where Satan didn't deceive the nations, and he has continued to do so all along the way. Mormonism, New Age, Wicca gaining popularity, false religion that bears the mark of the Satan deceiving the nations is EVERYWHERE.

When did "the last days" begin? When do they end? When is "the last day" of "the last days"?
 
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