20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

[sovereigngrace]

There were 1,000 years between David and Christ. The millennium is not the literal time period between David and Christ, for Satan was not bound, Christ had not yet risen, and the saints had not yet been born again to be a kingdom of priests to God during this time frame.

The millennium is therefore a reflection that it was 1,000 years from David to Christ, and when Christ did arrive, 1,000 years later, He fulfilled the Davidic covenant through his ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the Spirit, which resulted in satan bound, the first resurrection, and the saints being born again to become a kingdom of priests.

This is totally nonsensical. The millennium starts with an identifiable event (the resurrection of Jesus – the first resurrection) and ends with an identifiable event (the one final future coming of the Lord to resurrect mankind and judge them). This has absolutely nothing to do with David. You force that into the text.

Yes years denotes time, How many years between David and Christ?

If the 1,000 years is then to be understood as a literal time frame regardless of length between Christ's 1st coming and satans little season, what NT scripture in the gospels and epistles supports that satan is bound in the abyss until he is released at the end?

In one breath you acknowledge that years denote time, in the next you're trying to relate the thousand years to a period that you admit is not even in the text, and then in the next you try to convince us that the thousand years means nothing. This is absolutely ludicrous and ridiculous. This is hermeneutics on crack cocaine. It doesn't add up and it doesn't make sense. That is why no one of any credence held or holds Full Preterism.

 

[DavidPT]

Yes years denotes time, How many years between David and Christ?

If the 1,000 years is then to be understood as a literal time frame regardless of length between Christ's 1st coming and satans little season, what NT scripture in the gospels and epistles supports that satan is bound in the abyss until he is released at the end?

Let's look at the text and try and determine things according to the text.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


In verse 4, who does it indicate that lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years? Is it not these? them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hand


What does verse 5 call this when these martyrs live again? Answer: the first resurrection.

What does verse 6 indicate about anyone having part in the first resurrection? They are blessed and holy. on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It is utterly impossible that there can already be this thousand years, in any sense, before Christ even appears during the first advent. As to this part in verse 4----beheaded for the witness of Jesus---how can anyone be beheaded for the witness of Jesus before Jesus is even born and all grown up first? John the Baptist was beheaded for the witness of Jesus, but he was beheaded after Jesus was born and all grown up.

As to this part in verse 4----which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---none of this has even happened yet. That's another reason we can know without a doubt that we are not yet in the thousand years. Because if we were, there would already be martyrs living again who were martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13. But since there isn't, the thousand years are yet to be fulfilled, since they can't even come to pass until there are first saints who are martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Let's look at the text and try and determine things according to the text.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


In verse 4, who does it indicate that lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years? Is it not these? them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hand

This makes sense.
What does verse 5 call this when these martyrs live again? Answer: the first resurrection.

What does verse 6 indicate about anyone having part in the first resurrection? They are blessed and holy. on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It is utterly impossible that there can already be this thousand years, in any sense, before Christ even appears during the first advent. As to this part in verse 4----beheaded for the witness of Jesus---how can anyone be beheaded for the witness of Jesus before Jesus is even born and all grown up first? John the Baptist was beheaded for the witness of Jesus, but he was beheaded after Jesus was born and all grown up.

As to this part in verse 4----which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---none of this has even happened yet. That's another reason we can know without a doubt that we are not yet in the thousand years. Because if we were, there would already be martyrs living again who were martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13. But since there isn't, the thousand years are yet to be fulfilled, since they can't even come to pass until there are first saints who are martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13.

This makes sense!

 

[claninja]

This is totally nonsensical. The millennium starts with an identifiable event (the resurrection of Jesus – the first resurrection) and ends with an identifiable event (the one final future coming of the Lord to resurrect mankind and judge them). This has absolutely nothing to do with David. You force that into the text.

the millennium, as we agree, began at the binding of Satan and first resurrection. However, Per revelation 20:3,7 at the completion of the millennium, Satan is loosed for a little season to wage war on the saints.

according to the gospels and epistles, Satan was bound and Christ was the 1st resurrection. Also according to the gospels and epistles, Satan was coming and then active in persecuting and deceiving through his servants following the cross.

There is no mention in the gospels or epistles of Satan being locked up only to be released for a little season at the end of an intra advent era, such idea is based on traditions of interpreting a highly obscure book without support from the gospels or epistles.

Therefore I view revelation 20 in light of the gospel and epistle narrative, not the other way around. Christ came in the last days to bind Satan and become the first resurrection in order that we might be born again. At the same time Satan was cast out to wage war on the saints which is evidenced in the the book of acts and epistles.



Therefore I view the 1,000 years as a completed work of Christ, pointing to the promises made by God to David 1,000 years previously, at his first advent which resulted in the binding Of Satan, the overcoming of the saints to be a kingdom of priests, and Satan being cast down to wage war. Such is the narrative of the gospels and epistles.

Still waiting on gospel and epistle support for your view of the millennium....

n one breath you acknowledge that years denote time, in the next you're trying to relate the thousand years to a period that you admit is not even in the text, and then in the next you try to convince us that the thousand years means nothing. This is absolutely ludicrous and ridiculous. This is hermeneutics on crack cocaine. It doesn't add up and it doesn't make sense. That is why no one of any credence held or holds Full Preterism.

Using the gospels and epistles to interpret revelation 20 is hermeneutics on crack cocaine? Ok SG......

What doesn’t make sense to me, IMO, is to develop an opinion on the parabolic 1,000 years without the use of the gospels and epistles.

You use the gospels and epistles to support the binding and first resurrection as occurring at Christ’s 1st advent, but have no gospel or epistle support for the abyss and little season

 

[sovereigngrace]

the millennium, as we agree, began at the binding of Satan and first resurrection. However, Per revelation 20:3,7 at the completion of the millennium, Satan is loosed for a little season to wage war on the saints.

according to the gospels and epistles, Satan was bound and Christ was the 1st resurrection. Also according to the gospels and epistles, Satan was coming and then active in persecuting and deceiving through his servants following the cross.

There is no mention in the gospels or epistles of Satan being locked up only to be released for a little season at the end of an intra advent era, such idea is based on traditions of interpreting a highly obscure book without support from the gospels or epistles.

Therefore I view revelation 20 in light of the gospel and epistle narrative, not the other way around. Christ came in the last days to bind Satan and become the first resurrection in order that we might be born again. At the same time Satan was cast out to wage war on the saints which is evidenced in the the book of acts and epistles.



Therefore I view the 1,000 years as a completed work of Christ, pointing to the promises made by God to David 1,000 years previously, at his first advent which resulted in the binding Of Satan, the overcoming of the saints to be a kingdom of priests, and Satan being cast down to wage war. Such is the narrative of the gospels and epistles.

Still waiting on gospel and epistle support for your view of the millennium....





Using the gospels and epistles to interpret revelation 20 is hermeneutics on crack cocaine? Ok SG......

What doesn’t make sense to me, IMO, is to develop an opinion on the parabolic 1,000 years without the use of the gospels and epistles.

You use the gospels and epistles to support the binding and first resurrection as occurring at Christ’s 1st advent, but have no gospel or epistle support for the abyss and little season

You are master at avoidance! You have totally sidestepped every Scripture that I presented that forbids your Jesuit doctrine invented by Steve Hahn in his book The Ignatius Catholic Study Bible. Apart from him, MKgal and Porousia70 and other that espouse Full Preterist beliefs, name any reputable evangelical leader in history that has espoused this nonsense? All Amillennial Partial Preterists reject it.

I refer you back to all the Scripture that exposes your error.

You have not even told us when and how your millennial apparition ends! I wonder why?

 

[claninja]

You are master at avoidance! You have totally sidestepped every Scripture that I presented

I addressed your gospel and epistolic evidence in several past posts, to which you never provided a rebuttal. So I'll do it again in case you didn't read my posts clearly enough.

1.) Jude 1:6 and 2 Peter 2:4 make no mention of the angels being released for a season prior to the judgment. It only states they are bound in chains in darkness for judgment. Therefore this is no epistolic evidence that satan will be released from the abyss for a little season.

2.) 2 thessalonians 2 does not state satan is being released from the abyss for a little season just prior to the 2nd coming. Such is a biased interpretation based on your eschatological preference. Premils do the exact same thing and use this exact same verse to support their own position.

3.) I asked for gospel and epistle evidence for satans little season after the abyss at the end of the intra advent period. You providing your interpretation of other passages in a very symbolic and parabolic book to support another symbolic and parabolic passage in that same book with no gospel or epistle evidence is not what I asked for. This would be the same error that premils commit according to your own OP. You provide gospel and epistolic evidence for the binding of satan and first resurrection, why don't you do the same thing for satan's little season?

The gospel and epistolic narrative is that:

In the last days (acts 2:16-17, 1 Corinthians 10:11, 1 John 2:18, Hebrews 9:26), Jesus's 1st advent resulted in Satan being bound (matthew 12:29) and cast out (John 12:31-32), satan coming to persecute and deceive (John 14:30, 1 thessalonians 2:18, Ephesians 2:2, 2 Corinthians 11:12-15, revelation 2:13, 1 Peter 5:8), the saints overcoming by being born again (ephesians 2:4-7, ephesians 6:11, James 4:7), no one being able to accuse the saints because of Jesus (romans 8:33-34), and satan soon to be crushed (romans 16:20). Thus I interpret revelation 20, through the lens of the gospel and epistolic narrative and not the other way around.

Please show where in the gospel and epistolic narrative that satan is in the abyss and released for a little season. You still have yet to provide this.

name any reputable evangelical leader in history that has espoused this nonsense?

Name any reputable evangelical leader that uses the gospels and epistles in order to understand satan's little season post the abyss, and then maybe we can have a legitimate conversation on this.

I refer you back to all the Scripture that exposes your error.

I refer you back to the gospel and epistolic narrative which disputes your view of revelation 20.

You have not even told us when and how your millennial apparition ends! I wonder why?

I have a couple times now. I'll repeat in hopes you take the time to read it.

1.) According to revelation 20, the millennium finds its beginning with the binding of satan and first resurrection.

According to the gospels and epistles, satan is bound (matthew 12:29) and the first resurrection occurs at Christ's 1st advent (ephesians 2:3-5, 1 Corinthians 15:20, John 11:25).

2.) According to revelation 20, the millennium ends when satan is released to do battle against the saints.

According to the gospels and epistles, satan was coming (john 14:30) and was actively deceiving and persecuting the church (John 14:30, 1 thessalonians 2:18, Ephesians 2:2, 2 Corinthians 11:12-15, revelation 2:13, 1 Peter 5:8).

 

[sovereigngrace]

I addressed your gospel and epistolic evidence in several past posts, to which you never provided a rebuttal. So I'll do it again in case you didn't read my posts clearly enough.

1.) Jude 1:6 and 2 Peter 2:4 make no mention of the angels being released for a season prior to the judgment. It only states they are bound in chains in darkness for judgment. Therefore this is no epistolic evidence that satan will be released from the abyss for a little season.

2.) 2 thessalonians 2 does not state satan is being released from the abyss for a little season just prior to the 2nd coming. Such is a biased interpretation based on your eschatological preference. Premils do the exact same thing and use this exact same verse to support their own position.

3.) I asked for gospel and epistle evidence for satans little season after the abyss at the end of the intra advent period. You providing your interpretation of other passages in a very symbolic and parabolic book to support another symbolic and parabolic passage in that same book with no gospel or epistle evidence is not what I asked for. This would be the same error that premils commit according to your own OP. You provide gospel and epistolic evidence for the binding of satan and first resurrection, why don't you do the same thing for satan's little season?

The gospel and epistolic narrative is that:

In the last days (acts 2:16-17, 1 Corinthians 10:11, 1 John 2:18, Hebrews 9:26), Jesus's 1st advent resulted in Satan being bound (matthew 12:29) and cast out (John 12:31-32), satan coming to persecute and deceive (John 14:30, 1 thessalonians 2:18, Ephesians 2:2, 2 Corinthians 11:12-15, revelation 2:13, 1 Peter 5:8), the saints overcoming by being born again (ephesians 2:4-7, ephesians 6:11, James 4:7), no one being able to accuse the saints because of Jesus (romans 8:33-34), and satan soon to be crushed (romans 16:20). Thus I interpret revelation 20, through the lens of the gospel and epistolic narrative and not the other way around.

Please show where in the gospel and epistolic narrative that satan is in the abyss and released for a little season. You still have yet to provide this.




Name any reputable evangelical leader that uses the gospels and epistles in order to understand satan's little season post the abyss, and then maybe we can have a legitimate conversation on this.



I refer you back to the gospel and epistolic narrative which disputes your view of revelation 20.



I have a couple times now. I'll repeat in hopes you take the time to read it.

1.) According to revelation 20, the millennium finds its beginning with the binding of satan and first resurrection.

According to the gospels and epistles, satan is bound (matthew 12:29) and the first resurrection occurs at Christ's 1st advent (ephesians 2:3-5, 1 Corinthians 15:20, John 11:25).

2.) According to revelation 20, the millennium ends when satan is released to do battle against the saints.

According to the gospels and epistles, satan was coming (john 14:30) and was actively deceiving and persecuting the church (John 14:30, 1 thessalonians 2:18, Ephesians 2:2, 2 Corinthians 11:12-15, revelation 2:13, 1 Peter 5:8).

You are not telling us anything. You are ducking around the issues, and you know it. When in history was Satan released from his restrains? When did the wicked surround the saints as the sand of the sea? What event? When did "the earth and the heaven" flee away "and there was found no place for them"? When was the physical resurrection of the mankind (when "the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead")? When was the general judgment of the mankind before the great white throne where "the dead, small and great" stood before God "and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works? When was "death and hell ... cast into the lake of fire"?

Please stop avoiding!

Jude 1:6 and 2 Peter 2:4 describes the current restrained state of wicked demons. These passages show that they are in the abyss awaiting "the judgment of the great day.” This negates the Full Preterist Jesuit teaching of Steve Hahn in his book The Ignatius Catholic Study Bible that you follow. Are you claiming that "the judgment of the great day” has already happened? If so, when?

I see you sidestepped Rev 9 that shows the releases of Satan and his demons from the abyss before the last trumpet.

2 Thessalonians 2 shows the removal of the spiritual restraint (chains) upon the beast in order to perform his evil. This correlates with that of Satan in Revelation 20. Both are shown to be punished at The one future coming on the Lord Jesus Christ.

You must interpret Scriptures with Scripture, not explain away Scripture with other Scripture.

Does An incarcerated prisoner have movement? Can an incarcerated prisoner hurt, rape, steal, embezzle and kill in prison? Of course. But he is still in chains.? He is still imprisoned.

The prison and chains that hold Satan are spiritual because Satan is a spirit. A brick prison and metal chains will not cut it.

 

[Jamdoc]

So you just throw Revelation 20 out because you don't agree with it?

 

[sovereigngrace]

So you just throw Revelation 20 out because you don't agree with it?

Who is throwing Revelation 20 out? Who is disagreeing with it?

It is Premils that mis-locates it to some imaginary period in the future after the second coming that does not exist. Both Premils and many Preterists must have three ages in their school of thought: “this age, the age to come and another age to come after the age to come.” Christ or none of the Apostles taught three ages (1) this age (2) millennial age, (3) age to come, but rather two.

Premils are faced with an unsurmountable obstacle: Scripture only recognizes time up until Christ’s coming, and then eternity after this. There is no space or opportunity for the semi-glorious/semi-corrupt bipolar age that they anticipate. The age to come has eternity written all over it. It is not temporal. It is not sinful. It does not involve earthly sensual pleasures.

Revelation 20 reinforces the Amil position.

 

[Jamdoc]

Who is throwing Revelation 20 out? Who is disagreeing with it?

It is Premils that mis-locates it to some imaginary period in the future after the second coming that does not exist. Both Premils and many Preterists must have three ages in their school of thought: “this age, the age to come and another age to come after the age to come.” Christ or none of the Apostles taught three ages (1) this age (2) millennial age, (3) age to come, but rather two.

Premils are faced with an unsurmountable obstacle: Scripture only recognizes time up until Christ’s coming, and then eternity after this. There is no space or opportunity for the semi-glorious/semi-corrupt bipolar age that they anticipate. The age to come has eternity written all over it. It is not temporal. It is not sinful. It does not involve earthly sensual pleasures.

Revelation 20 reinforces the Amil position.

Really, when has Satan been chained up and unable to corrupt people for 1000 years? Cause at no time in history has there not been a time when Satan has been deceiving people.

 

[BABerean2]

Really, when has Satan been chained up and unable to corrupt people for 1000 years? Cause at no time in history has there not been a time when Satan has been deceiving people.

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


We see below that demonic spirits cannot be bound with a real chain.

Mar 5:2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
Mar 5:3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
Mar 5:4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.


.

 

[Jamdoc]

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


We see below that demonic spirits cannot be bound with a real chain.

Mar 5:2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
Mar 5:3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
Mar 5:4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.


.

Revelation 20:2-3
Where do you see that anywhere in History, 1000 years of no activity by Satan?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Really, when has Satan been chained up and unable to corrupt people for 1000 years? Cause at no time in history has there not been a time when Satan has been deceiving people.

Revelation 1:18 Christ testifies: “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”

Christ defeated it and took “the keys of hell and of death” (Revelation 1:18), triumphing over the prince of darkness. Christ became a curse for the penitent, therefore bearing his curse.

Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (deo) the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

Jesus describes Satan here as the “strong man.” He depicts Himself as the One who enters the house the strong man and plunders his goods. But before this happens he must first be incapacitated.

The Lord identifies the casting out of devils, and the resulting liberating of souls, with the actual binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvelously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (deo) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

This familiar discourse by our Lord came as a response to the crude scoffs of the religious Scribes (during His earthly ministry) dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry as a work of Satan. Christ’s reply confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not simply a future hope that will occur after the Lord’s return. He said: “No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.” Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was describing the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Here, Christ highlights the sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Revelation 20:2-3
Where do you see that anywhere in History, 1000 years of no activity by Satan?

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Satan cannot stop the enlightenment of the Gentiles as before. The restraint simply relates to the Gospel advance to the Gentiles. They were once enveloped in darkness before the first resurrection, now a bright light has been shining for 2000 years saving countless millions throughout the nations. And there is absolutely nothing Satan can do prevent the invasion of his territory. He cannot deceive "the nations" (Gentiles) because we now have the truth as a result of the church expansion into the nations.

 

[Jamdoc]

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Satan cannot stop the enlightenment of the Gentiles as before. The restraint simply relates to the Gospel advance to the Gentiles. They were once enveloped in darkness before the first resurrection, now a bright light has been shining for 2000 years saving countless millions throughout the nations. And there is absolutely nothing Satan can do prevent the invasion of his territory. He cannot deceive "the nations" (Gentiles) because we now have the truth as a result of the church expansion into the nations.

All of both of your walls of text are not dealing with

he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled

Yes people are being saved, but nations are being deceived, and have been deceived, throughout the entire course of history. We've had no period of time where there has been no activity by Satan.

The scripture doesn't say "He'll deceive the nations less than before" or "He'll have limitied deception of the nations", it says "he should deceive the nations no more"
That is to say, Satan has not just diminished power and activity, but NO power or activity.

Also how do you address Isaiah 65:20, where #1, there's still sinners in this prophetic passage, living to 100 and being accursed, and there's #2, people dying at 100 and still being considered children, they died "young"
There is no death in eternity, that passes away.
If the Millennial reign of Christ is only alluded to in the old testament and only revealed explicitly in the new, that's consistent with a lot of other things in the bible, the new in the old concealed, the new is the old revealed. Does God have to repeat everything He's going to do across multiple books before you believe it?
Finding parallel passages in scripture can help you time out events in some sort of chronology, but the existence of an event only once in scripture and not found anywhere else doesn't mean that event will never happen. Sometimes verses with specific details are only found in one place in the bible, they enlighten us giving us those other details, rather than every book in the bible having to repeat the same thing over and over for veracity.

 

[claninja]

You are not telling us anything. You are ducking around the issues, and you know it. When in history was Satan released from his restrains? When did the wicked surround the saints as the sand of the sea? What event? When did "the earth and the heaven" flee away "and there was found no place for them"? When was the physical resurrection of the mankind (when "the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead")? When was the general judgment of the mankind before the great white throne where "the dead, small and great" stood before God "and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works? When was "death and hell ... cast into the lake of fire"?

Stop avoiding and use gospel and epistolic evidence to defend your position. If you don't want to, that's fine, just say so.

HERE'S MY EXAMPLE:

In the last days (acts 2:16-17, 1 Corinthians 10:11, 1 John 2:18, Hebrews 9:26), Jesus's 1st advent resulted in Satan being bound (matthew 12:29) and cast out (John 12:31-32), satan coming to persecute and deceive (John 14:30, 1 thessalonians 2:18, Ephesians 2:2, 2 Corinthians 11:12-15, revelation 2:13, 1 Peter 5:8), the saints overcoming by being born again (ephesians 2:4-7, ephesians 6:11, James 4:7), no one being able to accuse the saints because of Jesus (romans 8:33-34), and satan soon to be crushed (romans 16:20).

Thus I interpret revelation 20, through the lens of the gospel and epistolic narrative and not the other way around.

What gospel and epistolic evidence do you use support your position on the millennium?

Jude 1:6 and 2 Peter 2:4 describes the current restrained state of wicked demons. These passages show that they are in the abyss awaiting "the judgment of the great day.” This negates the Full Preterist Jesuit teaching of Steve Hahn in his book The Ignatius Catholic Study Bible that you follow. Are you claiming that "the judgment of the great day” has already happened? If so, when?

Never claimed the day of judgment has already happened. quit with the strawman arguments, and actually address the the issues I bring up.

Where does Jude 1:6 or 2 Peter 2:4 mention the release of demons for a little season prior to judgment in order to support your understanding of revelation 20? I keep asking this, and you keep avoiding.......

I see you sidestepped Rev 9 that shows the releases of Satan and his demons from the abyss before the last trumpet.

Already addressed. Please re read point 3 of post 586.

2 Thessalonians 2 shows the removal of the spiritual restraint (chains) upon the beast in order to perform his evil. This correlates with that of Satan in Revelation 20. Both are shown to be punished at The one future coming on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, for the umpteenth time, 2 thessalonians makes no mention of satan being released from the pit. Premils use this same controversial verse to support their position. You using it to defend your position does nothing to add to the conversation. IT'S A CONTROVERSIAL VERSE WITH MULTIPLE INTERPRETATIONS THAT EACH ESCHATOLOGICAL VIEW USES TO DEFEND THEIR OWN POSITION.

Does An incarcerated prisoner have movement? Can an incarcerated prisoner hurt, rape, steal, embezzle and kill in prison? Of course. But he is still in chains.? He is still imprisoned.

The prison and chains that hold Satan are spiritual because Satan is a spirit. A brick prison and metal chains will not cut it.

Still waiting for you to demonstrate gospel and epistolic evidence for your position.......

 

[claninja]

Let's look at the text and try and determine things according to the text.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


In verse 4, who does it indicate that lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years? Is it not these? them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hand


What does verse 5 call this when these martyrs live again? Answer: the first resurrection.

What does verse 6 indicate about anyone having part in the first resurrection? They are blessed and holy. on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It is utterly impossible that there can already be this thousand years, in any sense, before Christ even appears during the first advent. As to this part in verse 4----beheaded for the witness of Jesus---how can anyone be beheaded for the witness of Jesus before Jesus is even born and all grown up first? John the Baptist was beheaded for the witness of Jesus, but he was beheaded after Jesus was born and all grown up.

As to this part in verse 4----which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---none of this has even happened yet. That's another reason we can know without a doubt that we are not yet in the thousand years. Because if we were, there would already be martyrs living again who were martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13. But since there isn't, the thousand years are yet to be fulfilled, since they can't even come to pass until there are first saints who are martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13.

DavidPT, I'm going to be honest with you. I don't view revelation as new or separate scripture. I interpret revelation through the lens of the gospels and epistles, as revelation is highly symbolic and apocalyptic, similar to the parables of Jesus. Therefore if you are not going to use the gospels and epistles in your argument, your are not going to convince me your interpretation of revelation, out of the thousands out there, is the true one.

According to the gospels/epistles when was satan bound?
according to the gospels/epistles what is the first resurrection?
according to the gospels/epistles when are the saints persecuted?
according to the gospels/epistles who is a kingdom of priests to God?
according to the gospels/epistles when is satan active?

If you want to have a discussion with me about revelation, use the gospels and epistles. If you don't want to use the gospels and epistles, your "interpretation" of revelation is just 1 of thousands already out there.

 

[claninja]

So you just throw Revelation 20 out because you don't agree with it?

Who is throwing out revelation 20?

 

[Jamdoc]

Who is throwing out revelation 20?

amillennialists, they either throw out Revelation 20 or abstract it to where the meaning isn't that Satan will deceive the nations no more for 1000 years.

 

[sovereigngrace]

All of both of your walls of text are not dealing with


Yes people are being saved, but nations are being deceived, and have been deceived, throughout the entire course of history. We've had no period of time where there has been no activity by Satan.

The scripture doesn't say "He'll deceive the nations less than before" or "He'll have limitied deception of the nations", it says "he should deceive the nations no more"
That is to say, Satan has not just diminished power and activity, but NO power or activity.

Also how do you address Isaiah 65:20, where #1, there's still sinners in this prophetic passage, living to 100 and being accursed, and there's #2, people dying at 100 and still being considered children, they died "young"
There is no death in eternity, that passes away.
If the Millennial reign of Christ is only alluded to in the old testament and only revealed explicitly in the new, that's consistent with a lot of other things in the bible, the new in the old concealed, the new is the old revealed. Does God have to repeat everything He's going to do across multiple books before you believe it?
Finding parallel passages in scripture can help you time out events in some sort of chronology, but the existence of an event only once in scripture and not found anywhere else doesn't mean that event will never happen. Sometimes verses with specific details are only found in one place in the bible, they enlighten us giving us those other details, rather than every book in the bible having to repeat the same thing over and over for veracity.

This is classic Premil hermeneutics. You are twisting Scripture to fit your false teaching. This is what I highlighted in the the Op. You are just confirming my supposition. So, I appreciate you candor. You are using Revelation 20 as a dumping ground for "the last days" (Isaiah 2 and the NHNE (Isaiah 65).

(8) Because Premil lacks any corroboration in Scripture for a future 1,000 years’ age after the second coming, it invents 2 “last days” periods to allow Premil to fit. Mark 1 now, and Mark 2 after the second coming. Premils also invent 2 new heavens and new earths. Mark 1 they relate to their alleged future millennium and is sin-cursed and corrupt. Mark 2 is perfect and incorrupt and they equate it to 1,000 years+ after this.