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Featured 17 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by sovereigngrace, May 15, 2020.

  1. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    This demonstrates your misunderstanding of my position. My position involves interpreting revelation through the lens of the gospels. This would be opposite of premil.


    I don't disagree.

    This man of sin what being restained in the 1st century. Do you believe the man of sin to be a person or spiritual entity?

    2 thessalonian 2:6-7 And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way.

    I don't disagree. My posts above have show agreement with this.

    There is no mention of a release of these angels prior to the day of judgment in the gospels or epistles. The angels that sinned are held in chains for judgment.

    Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling—these He has kept in eternal chains under darkness, bound for judgment on that great day.

    2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell,a placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment

    What scripture from the gospels and/or epistles state that satan and his angels are bound in chains in darkness and will be released in the last days?

    So far I cannot find any that to support your position.

    I can only find scriptures from the gospels and epistles that mention the following:


    From the gospels and epistles, we know that Satan was to be cast out of heaven at Christ's ascension ( John 12:30-32), that satan would then be coming (John 14:30), that no one, not even satan could accuse the elect because of Christ (romans 8:33-34), that satan and his offspring were persecuting/waging war against the body of Christ (1 thessalonians 2:14-18, 2 corinthians 11:14, 2 timothy 2:26, 1 peter 5:8, 1 john 3:10, Revelation 2:13), and that those in Christ are able to resist the schemes of satan ( James 4:7, ephesians 4:27, ephesians 6:11), and that satan was soon to be crushed (romans 16:20).

    Therefore my understanding of the parabolic nature of revelation 20 is based on the scripture presented in the gospels and epistles.

    No disagreement.

    Again, please provide scripture from the gospels and/or epistles that demonstrate that your interpretation of the parabolic language of revelation is the correct view. This is what I have been asking for, but you have yet provide anything.


    It's important to notice the difference in the vision and its interpretation. In the vision, the 4th beast is slain and thrown into the fire.

    Daniel 7:11 hen I kept watching because of the arrogant words the horn was speaking. As I continued to watch, the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire.

    However, the vision as interpreted by the angel demonstrates that it is the little horn that is destroyed.

    Daniel 7:24-26 After them another king, different from the earlier ones, will rise and subdue three kings. He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time. But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever.

    In the interpretation as provided by the angel, there is no mention of the destruction of the 4th kingdom, Only the little horn that arises during the 4th kingdom. The simplistic interpretation of the vision is that there would be 4 earthly kingdoms, but the saints would inherit the kingdom of God forever. My suggestion would be to stick with the interpretation provided, and not add anything to it that isn't explained by the angel.

    Daniel 7:17-18 ‘These four great beasts are four kings who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’


    Now your position on the 2nd half of revelation 19 appears to believe it refers to the 2nd coming. I am in disagreement with this position. I believe the beast and kings of the earth gathering to make war on the lamb refers to the cross due other writings in the NT:

    Revelation 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered together to wage war against the One seated on the horse, and against His army.

    Acts 4:26-27 ‘Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the Lord and against His Anointed One.’ In fact, this is the very city where Herod and Pontius Pilate conspired with the Gentiles and the people of Israel against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed.

    colossians 2:15 and having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

    Therefore, based on using other scripture to help interpret the symbolic language of revelation, I believe the kings of the earth and rulers that gather together against, refers to Herod, Pilate, the gentiles, and people of Israel, under the influence of satan, but as predestined by God, in their crucifying Christ. This ultimately led to the resurrection, ascension, and triumphant victory of Christ, and dealt a blow to the powers and authorities influenced by satan.



     
  2. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    According to revelation? when angel chains the devil.

    According to the gospels and epistles? There is no mention of the 1,000 years, however, due to the events that result from the 1,000 years (satan bound, the 1st resurrection, those in christ a kingdom of priests), we can assume at the 1st advent, as the gospels and epistles mention these very things as a present reality.


    According to revelation, when satan is released.

    According to the gospels? there is no mention of a 1,000 years ending.


    Satan being bound, the 1st resurrection, and those in Christ being a kingdom of priests. All of which can be found in the gospels and epistles as a 1st century present reality for the church.
     
  3. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    i have showed you various Scripture that show a releasing of the demonic realm at the end to persecute the people of God. These all correlate.

    By the way, the same Jesus that spoke in the gospels is also speaking in the book of Revelation. I take it all as inspired. I don’t divide it up it in order to suit my theology. Please see my corroboration in previous posts.

    The beast is a spiritual entity that has been about for 2000 years. It is the enforcer of the devil. The fate of both is inextricably tied together. When Satan was spiritually restrained 2000 years ago the beast was also. When Satan is released, so too is the beast. The beast is “antichrist,” “the mystery of iniquity,” and “that wicked.”
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
  4. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    1. Please give me dates for the binding of Satan and the release of Satan, in your theology?
    2. Or, are you suggesting, you do not believe in the release of Satan at the end to deceive the nations?
    3. Please give me dates for the beginning of the thousand years and the end of the thousand years, in your theology?
     
  5. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    if you believe the time span of the little horn (times, time, and half a time) is equal to the intro advent period, I’m sure you can make a solid case for this position.

    however the interpretation by angel of Daniel 7, states there would be 4 beasts, but the saints would inherit the kingdom of God forever.


    this is the same argument style as Premil. They claim the one thousand years are literal without any gospel or epistle evidence.

    you have not posted a single scripture from the gospels and or epistles that support your interpretation of revelation 20’s satans release for a little season After being in the abyss during the intr advent period. If am incorrect please provide post number to show my error, and I will concede.




    Classic Premil argument. No one here is arguing that the symbolic and parabolic nature of revelation is not Jesus’ very own inspired words. The argument is how should those symbolic and parabolic scriptures be interpreted. My argument is that they should be interpreted through the lens of the gospels and epistles In order to avoid personal interpretation, do you agree or disagree?

    Jesus spoke in parables did he not? Is revelation 20 parabolic or literal? If parabolic, what gospel or epistle scriptures are you using to support your argument that Satan is released For a little season near the end of the intro advent period.
     
  6. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Stop imposing Full Preterist teaching on Amil. It will never fit. I understand why you duck around the issues, because for you to come clean would expose the influence of your eschatology.

    There will be a little season at the end before Jesus comes for antichrist under the power of Satan to persecute the saints, but he has been alive and kicking from the beginning. He was restrained after the victorious life, death and resurrection of Christ.

    I have showed you support that the demonic realm is released before Christ Second Advent with multiple Scripture above, but you dismiss it. This supports the Amil position.

    Has your thousand years finished? When? When did it start and when did it finish? Please stop ducking around this!!!
     
  7. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    The fate of Satan, the beast (spirit of antichrist / mystery of iniquity) and the fallen angels (demons) are all knit together in Scripture. They all come under the same spiritual subjugation at the exact same time. When Satan was banished from the Garden then all evil was. When Satan was banished from heaven, so where they all (1/3 of the angels went with him). When Christ bound Satan’s kingdom through His life, death and resurrection then all were bound. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. Satan has already fell from heaven (John 12:31 & Revelation 12:7-9) and is now present in the Abyss (Revelation 9:1-11& Revelation 20:3). The abyss is a spiritual place of restraint for spirits now. When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then they all are. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season. Then comes the end! The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic Second Coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
  8. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    according to the NT, Satan is cast out at Christ’s 1st advent (John 12:31-32), is bound at Christ’s 1st advent (Matthew 12:29), and is coming at Christ’s 1st advent (John 14:30).


    according to Paul Satan already was able to deceive through his servants 2 Corinthians 11:13-15.

    there Is no mention in the gospels and epistles of a release of Satan From the abyss near the end of the intra advent era.

    however, as evidenced by the epistles, the last days began at Christ’s 1st advent, and it was then that Satan was prowling like a lion looking to devour (1 Peter 5:8)


    I believe the 1,000 years symbolize the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant, thus they find beginning and fulfillment with Christ’s 1st advent.
     
  9. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    So a thousand years lasted 33 1/2 years?
     
  10. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    It’s very telling that you couldn’t provide any Gospel or epistle evidence to support your position, and instead must resort to falsely labeling me a full preterist. Very disappointing, and similar to the Premil argument style. I was expecting more.

    Maybe just stop dodging my request and actually provide gospel and/or epistle support for your interpretation of revelation 20 in regards to Satan being released from the abyss for a little season.


    We have no issues in regards to satans binding. our issue is the what is symbolized by the abyss and the timing of satans little season, and what evidence there is in the gospels and epistles to support said position.

    Are you going to address that 2 Peter 2:4, Jude 1:6, and 2 Thessalonians 2:8 mention nothing of Satan being released from the abyss prior to his end?
     
  11. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    No
     
  12. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    How long?
     
  13. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    I did not say that you were a Full Preterist. But you hold to Full Preterist beliefs.

    I showed you clear Scripture that does but you dodge around it. Please address!
     
  14. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    and the purpose for this accusation is what now?


    IMO It’s symbolic of a fulfillment, not a time frame. There is no mention of a 1,000 years in scripture, nor Is there an end to the eternal gospel.


    which gospel and epistle evidence that you provided did I dodge around specifically?

    If it’s in regards to 2peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6, this is another false accusation. See post 561 and 570 where I addressed that the both passages that state the angels are in chains Until the day of judgement. There is no mention of a release of those angels for a little season prior to judgment.

    you still have yet to provide even 1 scriptural piece of evidence from the gospels or epistles that mention Satan in abyss followed by his release at the end of the intra advent period.

    if you require Premils to substantiate their claims from a literal 1,000 year reign with other scriptures from Jesus or the apostles, why are you then immune from providing scriptures from the gospels and epistles to support your position on the little season. Seems hypocritical......
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
  15. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Ok, so a "thousand years" does not mean a duration of time. It does not mean anything, even though historic events occur before, during and after it? Really? Does years not denote time? Does a “thousand years” not denote a long period of time in Scripture? What you are promoting is Full Preterism. It is definitely not Amil. Who in history supported this folly apart from you, mkgal and parousia70?

    When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season. Then comes the end! The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic Second Coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).

    Please read these instead of presenting your usual evasive fly-by denials of reality and truth.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
  16. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    There were 1,000 years between David and Christ. The millennium is not the literal time period between David and Christ, for Satan was not bound, Christ had not yet risen, and the saints had not yet been born again to be a kingdom of priests to God during this time frame.

    The millennium is therefore a reflection that it was 1,000 years from David to Christ, and when Christ did arrive, 1,000 years later, He fulfilled the Davidic covenant through his ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the Spirit, which resulted in satan bound, the first resurrection, and the saints being born again to become a kingdom of priests.

    The main reason I disagree with traditional Amil, is because there is no mention in the gospels and epistles of satan being released for a little season after being bound in the Abyss.



    Traditional Amils commit the same error as premils do, which is very ironic IMO. While Amils demand that premils produce other scriptures outside of revelation to support their interpretation of the millennium, Amils fail to produce any scripture outside revelation that demonstrates satan is in the abyss and will be released just before the 2nd coming of Christ.

    This is because there are no scriptures from the gospels or epistles that demonstrate satan being in the abyss and then released for a little season prior to the coming of Christ. This is evidenced by your inability to produce any throughout our discussion.


    1.) The Epistles (2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6) Mention angles in chains in the dark for the day of Judgment, BUT THERE IS NO MENTION of a release for a short period of time prior to the judgment.

    2.) Jesus states satan "is coming" (John 14:30), the epistles portray satan and his offspring as actively deceiving and persecuting (1 thessalonians 2:18, 1 timothy 5:15, 2 corinthians 11:14, 1 Peter 5:8, revelation 2:13, ephesians 2:2).

    3.) 2 thessalonians 2 makes no mention of satan being released for a little season.

    What we can garner from the epistles is that the the apostles believed they were living in the last days (acts 2:16-17, 1 corinthians 10:11, 1 peter 4:7, 1 John 2:18), that satan was present (John 14:30) and persecuting the church (1 thessalonians 2:18, 1 timothy 5:15, 2 corinthians 11:14, 1 Peter 5:8, revelation 2:13, ephesians 2:2), that the saints were able to endure and over come (ephesians 6:11, romans 8:33, James 4:7, ephesians 2:4), and that satan was soon to be crushed (romans 16:20). This is how I interpret revelation 20.



    Yes years denotes time, How many years between David and Christ?

    If the 1,000 years is then to be understood as a literal time frame regardless of length between Christ's 1st coming and satans little season, what NT scripture in the gospels and epistles supports that satan is bound in the abyss until he is released at the end?



    Incorrect. Full preterists typically hold that the millennium was a time period between 30 ad and 66ad, with the little season being between 66ad and 70ad. I disagree with that.

    While I am Amil in the sense of the literal definition of the word Amil, I am not Amil in the traditional sense, nor have I claimed to be in our discussion.

    Does anyone in church history use scripture from the gospels and epistles to demonstrate that satan is released for a little season after being locked the abyss for a long period of time? If no, then this question is pointless.

    There is no mention of satan coming out of the pit in 2 thessalonians 2. Satan was already present, as clearly mentioned throughout the epistles and gospels working through the sons of disobedience (ephesians 2:2) and waging war on the saints, who were overcoming.

    As premils use this same verse in 2 thessalonians to support their belief system, this highly debatable verse is not the best epistolic verse to support your position.

    You ironically go against points 1 and 8 of the OP. If you disagree that the little season of revelation 12 is the same as the little season of revelation 20, you are totally dependent upon one lone highly debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible to establish a doctrine of truth in regards to the satan's little season. A season at the end of the intra advent era that when viewed through the eyes of amil, is found no where in the gospels and epistles. You are therefore forced to use more debatable obscure and parabolic language in revelation (chapter 9, 11, 17) to support your position while being unable to provide any scripture from the gospels and epistles, just as the premils do.


    "(1) Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine."

    "(8) Because these thousand years cannot be found anywhere else in Scripture, apart from the highly symbolic Revelation 20, Premil is forced to insert a thousand years in text after text where it doesn't exist. Objective Bible students should struggle with building their eschatology on the 3rd last chapter of the Bible, in a highly figurative setting, especially when we are supposedly talking about the 2nd greatest age ever. The scriptural silence elsewhere speaks loud to most of us!"


    As the OP is about how premils get things wrong, I am Still waiting for you to demonstrate that your interpretive method is somehow different than premils to support your position of satan being released from the pit for a little season at the end of the intra advent age with scripture from the gospels and epistles. That would be more fruitful for our discussion instead of snarky comments such as the one above.
     
  17. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 9:1-5 gives us an insight into the bottomless pit prior to the return of the Lord (the last trumpet). In fact, the scene appears at the time of the 5th trumpet (obviously before the last trump): “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.”

    Here we have the opening of the abyss with a key before the second coming. Obviously, the place was locked up previously so that those inside couldn’t leave. Now please consider: this is evidence that Satan and his demons are in the pit before the second coming, but are released for a season at the end to do their damage.

    Before proceeding any further, we should carefully note a few things here which most commentators seem to overlook. Firstly, this “star” descended “from heaven unto the earth.” Secondly, having settled on “the earth” the “star” gained direct rule and authority over the abyss. Regardless of one’s theological position, we must accept that the abyss (however we understand it) is located on earth.

    Revelation 9:11 gives us more detail confirming that we are looking at the restrained kingdom of darkness: “had a king over them, which is the angel of the abussos (or) abyss, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

    In piecing the apocalyptic jigsaw together we find that this dark spiritual dungeon currently has a king over it. This gives us insight into the fact that the abyss must be speaking of a kingdom. Moreover, that kingdom is imprisoned in its own darkness. The fact that there is a king currently ruling tells us that the abyss must contain a kingdom. The word kingdom means 'king with a domain'. Its meaning includes the territory and the people over whom the King rules and exercises sovereign authority. The term also includes the legislation and laws that administrate that kingdom. The word employed in the New Testament for 'kingdom' is the Greek word basileia denoting 'sovereignty, royal power, kingship and dominion'. A kingdom must therefore have (1) a king - a head, (2) a domain to rule over - subjects and territory, (3) a structure of administration - ethics, rules and laws which govern it.

    We all know, there are only two spiritual realms in conflict on this earth - the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. Whilst these two kingdoms manifest through physical individuals they are invisible empires. The kingdom being described which "the destroyer" rules over is assuredly not the kingdom of God. The elect angels are never located in the abyss but rather in heavenly splendor. Therefore, we must be speaking of the dark restrained invisible spiritual realm of the devil's kingdom.

    Who is this king (or destroyer) that currently reigns over "the bottomless pit" or abyss? We know from the description given of this king that we are looking at an angel. In fact, the king is called: "the angel of the abyss." There is no doubt that Abaddon / Apollyon are referring to someone within the demonic realm. This begs an instant question, who is the king that rules over that dark realm?

    Strong's Concordance gives us help, describing Apollyon (623) as "a destroyer (i.e. Satan)." Moreover, when we examine the root Greek word apollumi (Strong's 622) we find it means "to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively." The word is variously translated destroy, die, lose, mar, perish in the King James Version. There seems little doubt that Apollyon is referring to the devil. Time after time in Scripture we see Satan being described in such a destructive way. The name and characteristics of this being seem to identify him with that great enemy of the Church - the devil.

    Revelation 9:1-3 shows the abyss occupied now by Satan and his minions prior to the last trumpet. It also shows Satan (Abaddon/Apollyon) there as well. Remember Abaddon/Apollyon is a king. This king is obviously head over a kingdom (that is what king's rule over) so what kingdom or domain and subjects and territory does he rule over? This is no natural king but a spiritual king. If it is a spiritual king it must either be Christ or Satan - the only two rulers over the two conflicting spiritual kingdoms. We know that Christ is not on earth since His ascent and definitely not in the abyss. There can surely be no doubt that this is Satan.

    We cannot help but conclude, the angel (or star) that descends in Revelation 9:1-3 is given immediate authority over Satan (Abaddon / Apollyon) and his angels (symbolic represented in this passage as locust/scorpion-type creatures), who in turn are presently in the abyss realm. The one major difficulty for Premils here is that this passage expressly locates Satan and his minions in the abyss prior to the coming of the Lord, as Amillennialism believes and not after that as Premillennialism mistakenly argues.

    This reading also significantly shows that Satan is currently subject to the authority of another angel (star). This angel obviously is not a fellow fallen angel, as Satan is undisputed king of that realm; it must therefore be an angel from the kingdom of God. Even though Satan is presently king over the abyss, he is currently restrained in that condition. Satan is restricted to the boundaries of the abyss - which is the spiritual abode of the kingdom of darkness. There is another angel that holds the key over

    This reading also significantly shows that Satan is currently subject to the authority of another angel (star). This angel obviously is not a fellow fallen angel, as Satan is undisputed king of that realm; it must therefore be an angel from the kingdom of God. Even though Satan is presently king over the abyss, he is currently restrained in that condition. Satan is restricted to the boundaries of the abyss - which is the spiritual abode of the kingdom of darkness. There is another angel that holds the key over

    Notwithstanding, this kingdom of demons that is ruled by Satan is released from the bottomless pit prior to the end in order to wreak havoc. There can be no other wicked king reigning over this kingdom than Satan. To suggest otherwise is to contradict much Scripture that shows Lucifer as the leader of the wicked band.

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 tells us that Satan will have a time of spiritual destruction before the end, saying, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away or (apostasia) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (apoleia or ruin or destruction); Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”

    2 Thessalonians 2:7-12: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

    I believe that man of sin is a proliferation of unrestrained sin, rebellion and debauchery before the Lord's return. I don't see it as merely a person but as the spirit of rebellion within man. I believe Paul shows that this will infiltrate into the true Church. The flesh will come to the fore taking the place of Christ.

    I believe this refers to the spirit of anti-Christ operating within the true Church in the last days – evidenced by the notable growth of false doctrine and unscriptural practices, signs and wonders. That is not to suggest that this anti-Christ spirit can possess the true believer – I don't believe so – but he can influence the believer to accept, expound and walk in error.

    The "man of sin" is that natural carnal man within all of us. If we give him an inch he will usurp God every single time. The fact is, either Christ reigns on the throne in the believer or self does. There is no joint control. That man of sin is our greatest enemy in life.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
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  18. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 11:7 says (speaking during the third of seven parallel), describing the period of time in-between the testimony of the two witnesses and the coming of the Lord, "when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the abyss (or abussos) shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

    The word “ascendeth” here is in the present active particle here associating it with the conclusion of the 2 witnesses’ ministry. His release would seem to result in the death of the 2 witnesses. The pit holds the beast during the intra-Advent period, until just before the end when he is released for a short season to do his evil. This imprisonment occurs after Christ’s victory at the cross and continues to just before the end. This covers the whole period of the Gospel expanse throughout the nations. This allows the deceived nations to hear the truth and accept or reject it.

    At the end of the third recapitulation in Revelation we witness the beast being released and ascending up out of the abyss for a short season at the end. This confirms the fact that the beast is kept under restraint up until the period preceding Christ's return. At that time he is given an unrestrained season in order to operate and manifest unparalleled debauchery. This undoubtedly correlates with Satan's release in Revelation 20:7-9 (at the end of the seventh and last parallel). When did the beast go to the abyss and how did he get there in the first place? It would be fair to conclude, the beast was placed under constraint in the abyss at the same time the devil was (Revelation 20:1-3). This occurred during the Lord's earthly ministry when Christ ushered in the kingdom of God. Satan and the anti-Christ system of this world were given carefully defined boundaries to operate in and were made subject to the mind and will of God.

    This is further confirmation that the beast must be a spirit, not a human being. We must surely assume it is the spirit of antichrist controlling his kingdom.

    Revelation 11:11-19 rewinds back to touch another occurrence before the last trumpet (the seventh or the second coming); this time regarding the 2 witnesses: “And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. Andthe seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

    The beast also will be released from his restraints and his wounded head will be healed. This correlates with the bruising of Satan's head through the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

    We see this in Revelation 17:8: “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

    The wound to one of the beast’s heads amazingly heals up at the end. Remember the beast has “seven heads” referring to seven kingdoms. That can only mean that one of Satan’s defeated kingdoms is revived at the end, when the freed beast begins his final evil. The text tells us: “I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.” Obviously one kingdom that seemed dead and buried is revitalised by the beast for his end-time terror. This causes the world to wonder. Which kingdom is this? Could it be Rome under the evil influence of the Roman Church? Could it be Islam that was embodied within the Ottoman Empire? Either empire would fit the end-time picture. Both religious systems continue to be an enemy of the true Church throughout the globe, albeit in a restricted form.

    Where does it say this is just the unsaved? This is a general judgment when Jesus comes! Here is absolute evidence that the beast is released from the restraints of the pit before the second coming. The last trump is the time when “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” When is the time for judging the dead? At the last trump which is after the thousand years. The fate of Satan and the beast are inextricably linked together. So if the beast is currently in the bottomless pit (before the second coming) and will be released at the end for a season of damage, then we should also likewise imagine Satan will also.

    Satan and his spiritual kingdom (the beast) have been restrained since the cross, but just prior to the Lord's return that restraint will be lifted in order to let the kingdom of darkness influence men to unprecedented evil. Revelation 11:7 therefore relates to Satan's "little season," which occurs at the end of the thousand years, when Satan is released just before The second coming.

    The character of the beast is simply a reflection of Satan. He carries all the depraved ruinous traits of his master Satan. Apollyon the destroyer (the king of the released demons) empowers the beast to pour out his venom upon mankind when released from his restraint at the end, just prior to the return of Christ. We should not overlook the usage of similar Greek words to describe the main players in Satan's end-time assault upon this earth.

    This worldly beast that deluded the Gentiles prior to the cross has been curtailed since the powerful invasion of devil's territory by the kingdom of God. When we read that the beast "was, and is not, and yet is" we must understand this as saying, whilst the beast still exists, it is in a restrained state in a spiritual prison since the cross. Essentially, he does not possess the same power and influence among the Gentiles as he did prior to the cross. This state will only change during Satan's little season at the end when he will bring in a wave of rebellion and debauchery such as this world has never seen. The devil and his minions will be untied to have their final throw.

    Revelation 20:7-13 correlates: “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison (the abyss or bottomless pit), And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

    Satan’s little season corresponds with the release of the beast / antichrist / mystery of iniquity.

    This is speaking of the last battle before the climactic coming of Christ. We are in the kingdom period now, it will come in all its final and eternal glory at the second coming.

    It says "the dead" were "judged" in both Revelation 11:15-18 and Revelation 20:11-15. This is another fight with Scripture - not Amils and Postmils! How many times will the dead be judged? Once! It does not say men are appointed to die once and then two judgments. No, it says “it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27).
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
  19. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I just wanted to interject something about the definition of "amillennialism". This forum, IMO, does a great job of describing the definition:

    Quoting from forum SOP: Amillennialism: "no millennium", rejects the belief that Jesus Christ will have a thousand-year-long, physical reign on the earth. The amillennial viewpoint holds that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current age. This rejection contrasts with premillennial and some postmillennial interpretations of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation. End​

    Also....the early church ruled millennialism as a heresy known as "Chiliasm".
    Fr. Michael Pomazansky. The Error of Chiliasm

    That's all. Back to the previous discussion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
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  20. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Just butting in again to add more of the characteristics of amillennialism (since there still seems to be confusion). This is from Blue Letter Bible:

    The amillennialist believes that the Kingdom of God was inaugurated at Christ's resurrection (hence the term "inaugurated millennialism") at which point he gained victory over both Satan and the Curse. Christ is even now reigning (hence the term "nunc-millennialism" — nunc means "now") at the right hand of the Father over His church.

    Features and Distinctions:

    • Favored method of interpretation: redemptive-historical.
    • Israel and the church: The church is the eschatological fulfillment of Israel.
    • Kingdom of God: a spiritual reality that all Christians partake in and that is seen presently by faith, but will be grasped by sight at the consummation.
      • The Millennium: inaugurated with Christ's resurrection. In an "already/not yet" sense, Christ already reigns over all and is already victorious over Satan.
      • Miscellaneous:
        • Higher degrees of interpreting prophecy in light of Christ's advent, death, resurrection, and glorification.
        • Relies heavily on a two-age theology.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
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