20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

[BABerean2]

This is paralleled and fulfilled by Revelation 21:1-7.
Why should I have to point this out to you?

Because what you are saying is not in the Bible.


Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

.

 

[claninja]

What was Satan bound from in practical terms in your theology?

Bound from accusing the elect before the Father in heaven.
Bound from preventing the gospel from spreading to the elect gentiles.

When, how and why was Satan released?

According to Revelation:

When: after the 1,000 years
How: revelation doesn't say how. It just says he will be released.
Why: to deceive the nations



According to the gospels and epistle:

When: there is no mention of Satan being released from prison
How: there is no mention of how satan is released from prison
Why: there is no mention of why satan is released from prison.

There is no mention of the 1,000 years or satan being bound in the pit in the gospels or epistles, therefore my position holds that we should look at the activity of satan throughout the gospels and epistles in order to understand the parabolic language of revelation 20, not the other way around.

What is the wholesale physical resurrection described in Rev 20

Jesus Christ is the first resurrection which resulted in all those who are in Christ being raised from spiritual death (being born again).

what is the great white judgment and when did/does that happen?

ACCORDING TO REVELATION

What: judgment of the dead according to the deeds written in the recorded books, where death, hades, those whose names that are not found in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:12,14-15 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.
And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

When: after satan is thrown into the lake of fire

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them.

ACCORDING TO THE NEW TESTAMENT

What: standing before Jesus to receive what is due for the things done in the body, after physical death.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.


When: After the son of man comes in the glory of his Father and sits on His throne, and after man's physical death

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne.

Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of Man will come in His Father’s glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done. Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment

 

[sovereigngrace]

Bound from accusing the elect before the Father in heaven.
Bound from preventing the gospel from spreading to the elect gentiles.



According to Revelation:

When: after the 1,000 years
How: revelation doesn't say how. It just says he will be released.
Why: to deceive the nations



According to the gospels and epistle:

When: there is no mention of Satan being released from prison
How: there is no mention of how satan is released from prison
Why: there is no mention of why satan is released from prison.

There is no mention of the 1,000 years or satan being bound in the pit in the gospels or epistles, therefore my position holds that we should look at the activity of satan throughout the gospels and epistles in order to understand the parabolic language of revelation 20, not the other way around.




Jesus Christ is the first resurrection which resulted in all those who are in Christ being raised from spiritual death (being born again).



ACCORDING TO REVELATION

What: judgment of the dead according to the deeds written in the recorded books, where death, hades, those whose names that are not found in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:12,14-15 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.
And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

When: after satan is thrown into the lake of fire

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them.

ACCORDING TO THE NEW TESTAMENT

What: standing before Jesus to receive what is due for the things done in the body, after physical death.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.


When: After the son of man comes in the glory of his Father and sits on His throne, and after man's physical death

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne.

Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of Man will come in His Father’s glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done. Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment

So the "thousand years" began at the cross or resurrection and lasted 40 years (between AD30 and AD70)?
So Satan couldn't deceive the nations for 40 years and then he could thereafter?
So, there is no literal future physical resurrection just an ongoing spiritual resurrection?
Is there a literal physical moment where Christ literally physically and visibly returns to raise the dead and change us?

 

[DavidPT]

What: judgment of the dead according to the deeds written in the recorded books, where death, hades, those whose names that are not found in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:12,14-15 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.
And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

When: after satan is thrown into the lake of fire

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them.

What you have shown here are things that are already plainly obvious. But there are other things to consider as well, such as what I have presented below.

Since you too are Amil, I would be interested to hear your opinion on the following. In Revelation 19 the same lake of fire that satan gets cast into in Revelation 20:10, the beast and false prophet get cast into in Revelation 19. In Revelation 19 there are also humans being slain, verse 21. What we do not see in Revelation 19 is this, satan being cast into the lake of fire at that time. As a matter of fact, satan is not mentioned one single time in all of chapter 19. We also don't see any humans being cast into the lake of fire at the time, in chapter 19. Yet, Amils, such as SG, insist that Revelation 20:10-15 is meaning the same period of time that Revelation 19:20 is meaning. Do you agree or disagree with that?

 

[sovereigngrace]

What you have shown here are things that are already plainly obvious. But there are other things to consider as well, such as what I have presented below.

Since you too are Amil, I would be interested to hear your opinion on the following. In Revelation 19 the same lake of fire that satan gets cast into in Revelation 20:10, the beast and false prophet get cast into in Revelation 19. In Revelation 19 there are also humans being slain, verse 21. What we do not see in Revelation 19 is this, satan being cast into the lake of fire at that time. As a matter of fact, satan is not mentioned one single time in all of chapter 19. We also don't see any humans being cast into the lake of fire at the time, in chapter 19. Yet, Amils, such as SG, insist that Revelation 20:10-15 is meaning the same period of time that Revelation 19:20 is meaning. Do you agree or disagree with that?

The beast, antichrist, the mystery of iniquity, the son of perdition and that Wicked one are the one same evil entity has been about for 2,000 yrs+. The beast therefore has to be a system, kingdom or a spirit. It obviously cannot be a man. Revelation 17:8, Revelation 17:9-13, 1 John 2:18-23, 1 John 4:1-3, 5-6, 2 John 8:7, 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 prove my point. His mark has been around as he has!

As we study the book of Revelation we see that the beast is a mirror image of the dragon. Its characteristics and influence reflect that of the dragon, apart from the number of crowns. Revelation 12:3 tells us the dragon has “seven heads and ten horns.” Revelation 13:1 tells us the beast has the same. What this is simply telling us in normal everyday language is that Satan’s worldly spirit reflects himself.

I believe the bruising of the head of the beast correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan and that they connect with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan. I believe they are all figurative metaphors describing the defeat of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

The binding of Satan at the cross and his casting into the abyss – a place of restraint – is paralleled with the beast experiencing the same. They are both so interconnected and interdependent on each other that they mirror each other in their experiences. Therefore, I feel there are strong grounds for believing the release of Satan at the end from the abyss restriction (Revelation 20:7) corresponds with the beast also rising from the abyss (Revelation 17:8). The detail of the operation of the beast during the three and a half years – Revelation 13:5 -18 seems to correspond with the detail described in the end-time assault of the wicked on the camp of the saints in Revelation 20:9 in Satan’s little season.

The bruising, binding and imprisonment of Satan and the beast 2000 years ago is undone shortly before the coming of Christ, when Satan and the beast will have all their restraints removed to deceive the nations once more.

This does not denote that they disappear or are completely mobile during the intra-advent period, but simply that they are spiritually curtailed and are incapacitated from doing the damage that they once did before they received the injury. The cross was a place that cause great injury to the kingdom of darkness.

 

[claninja]

So the "thousand years" began at the cross or resurrection and lasted 40 years (between AD30 and AD70)?

That is proposed by some preterists, although I disagree.

So Satan couldn't deceive the nations for 40 years and then he could thereafter?

I don't believe there is any evidence that the "1,000 years" refers to the time period between 30ad and 70ad, which means I don't know how to answer your question, as I don't agree with the premise.

Do you believe satan has 2 little seasons where he makes war against the people of God? And if so, what New testament scripture can you use to support that satan has 2 little seasons? However, if you believe satan only has 1 little season, how can it begin when he is cast out of heaven and Jesus' ascension, and after the 1,000 years?

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time.”

Revelation 12:13-16 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. Then from the mouth of the serpent spewed water like a river to overtake the woman and sweep her away in the torrent. But the earth helped the woman and opened its mouth to swallow up the river that had poured from the dragon’s mouth. And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 20:3 After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for war. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.

So, there is no literal future physical resurrection just an ongoing spiritual resurrection?

There is absolutely a future, literal resurrection, from a natural body to a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

As I type this, I am still in my natural body. I have not yet been raised to my literal spiritual body, therefore the resurrection of the natural body to a spiritual body is still future.

Is there a literal physical moment where Christ literally physically and visibly returns to raise the dead and change us?

Yes, Christ is coming on the clouds and all eyes will see him.
Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him

Yes, in the twinkling of an eye, where we will be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

 

[sovereigngrace]

That is proposed by some preterists, although I disagree.

I don't believe there is any evidence that the "1,000 years" refers to the time period between 30ad and 70ad, which means I don't know how to answer your question, as I don't agree with the premise.

Do you believe satan has 2 little seasons where he makes war against the people of God? And if so, what New testament scripture can you use to support that satan has 2 little seasons? However, if you believe satan only has 1 little season, how can it begin when he is cast out of heaven and Jesus' ascension, and after the 1,000 years?

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time.”

Revelation 12:13-16 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. Then from the mouth of the serpent spewed water like a river to overtake the woman and sweep her away in the torrent. But the earth helped the woman and opened its mouth to swallow up the river that had poured from the dragon’s mouth. And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 20:3 After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for war. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.

Amils all accept that Rev 20 relates to the intra-Advent period. That sees the binding of the devil and the widespread expansion of the Gospel to the once blinded nations. Satan's little season that John occurs before the one final future climatic coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Satan is a spiritual being and operates in the spiritual realm. He is not bound by space and time. The term "short" is relative to who is purported to operate there. For humans a few days, weeks or years can be classed as a short period of time. For God, time is just a blink for Him. I believe it is the same for Satan. Time is short compared to eternity.

There is absolutely a future, literal resurrection, from a natural body to a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

As I type this, I am still in my natural body. I have not yet been raised to my literal spiritual body, therefore the resurrection of the natural body to a spiritual body is still future.

Yes, Christ is coming on the clouds and all eyes will see him.
Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him

Yes, in the twinkling of an eye, where we will be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Ok, good.

 

[claninja]

What you have shown here are things that are already plainly obvious. But there are other things to consider as well, such as what I have presented below.

Since you too are Amil, I would be interested to hear your opinion on the following. In Revelation 19 the same lake of fire that satan gets cast into in Revelation 20:10, the beast and false prophet get cast into in Revelation 19. In Revelation 19 there are also humans being slain, verse 21. What we do not see in Revelation 19 is this, satan being cast into the lake of fire at that time. As a matter of fact, satan is not mentioned one single time in all of chapter 19. We also don't see any humans being cast into the lake of fire at the time, in chapter 19. Yet, Amils, such as SG, insist that Revelation 20:10-15 is meaning the same period of time that Revelation 19:20 is meaning. Do you agree or disagree with that?

As I try to view revelation through the lens of the Gospels and Epistles, I hold that for the most part, the 2nd half of revelation 19 points to the cross, and Christ's triumphant victory.

Revelation 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered together to wage war against the One seated on the horse, and against His army.

Acts 4:26-27 ‘Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the Lord and against His Anointed One.’ In fact, this is the very city where Herod and Pontius Pilate conspired with the Gentiles and the people of Israel against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed.

colossians 2:15 and having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Therefore, based on using other scripture to help interpret the symbolic language of revelation, I believe the kings of the earth and rulers that gather together against, refers to Herod, Pilate, the gentiles, and people of Israel, under the influence of satan, but as predestined by God, crucifying Christ.

As far as the beast and satan being thrown into the lake of fire "at different times", we need to look at other scripture for help.

When, according to scripture, do the saints inherit the kingdom, when the beast is destroyed or when satan is destroyed?

 

[DavidPT]

When, according to scripture, do the saints inherit the kingdom, when the beast is destroyed or when satan is destroyed?

If we consider Daniel 7, for instance. Daniel 7:21 appears to be meaning the same beast that is destroyed in Revelation 19. And the next verse in Daniel 7, verse 22, appears to be meaning when the saints inherit the kingdom.

I then see the following parallels, based on the above. There are more than just these, though.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Let's now group these like such.

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them----and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ----and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months----All of these are referring to the same period of time. and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---these were martyred during this same period of time mentioned above. These events are all put to a full end when the following in the next paragraph comes to pass.

Until the Ancient of days came----And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image---this being when the beast in question is destroyed.

and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom----And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them---and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.---this being when the saints inherit the kingdom.

It is after the thousand years when satan is cast into the lake of fire. Everything I submitted above though, some of it is before the thousand years, and some of it is during the thousand years, none of it is after the thousand years.

Therefore, according to Scripture, the beast and false prophet, and satan, are not cast into the lake of fire during the same time period, but are cast into the lake of fire during different times periods altogether, the beast and false prophet being cast into the lake of fire before the thousand years, satan being cast into the lake of fire after the thousand years.

 

[sovereigngrace]

If we consider Daniel 7, for instance. Daniel 7:21 appears to be meaning the same beast that is destroyed in Revelation 19. And the next verse in Daniel 7, verse 22, appears to be meaning when the saints inherit the kingdom.

I then see the following parallels, based on the above. There are more than just these, though.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Let's now group these like such.

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them----and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ----and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months----All of these are referring to the same period of time. and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---these were martyred during this same period of time mentioned above. These things are all put to a full end when the following in the next paragraph comes to pass.

Until the Ancient of days came----And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image---this being when the beast in question is destroyed.

and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom----And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them---and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.---this being when the saints inherit the kingdom.

It is after the thousand years when satan is cast into the lake of fire. Everything I submitted above though, some of it is before the thousand years, and some of it is during the thousand years, none of it is after the thousand years.

Therefore, according to Scripture, the beast and false prophet, and satan, are not cast into the lake of fire during the same time period, but are cast into the lake of fire during different times periods altogether, the beast and false prophet being cast into the lake of fire before the thousand years, satan being cast into the lake of fire after the thousand years.

Rev 20 is a recap - a different camera view. Where you get confused is in your chronological approach.

 

[DavidPT]

Rev 20 is a recap - a different camera view. Where you get confused is in your chronological approach.

How can Daniel 7:21-22 be already fulfilled a cpl of thousand years ago? Because if it has been, how can the beast in Revelation 19 still be here during the 2nd coming if Daniel 7:21 has already been fulfilled? How can Daniel 7:21 not be meaning the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13? What follows that reign? Is it not the 2nd coming? How can Daniel 7:22 not involve the 2nd coming, then? In Daniel 7:22---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High---how can that not be meaning this in Revelation 20:4---and judgment was given unto them?

 

[sovereigngrace]

How can Daniel 7:21-22 be already fulfilled a cpl of thousand years ago? Because if it has been, how can the beast in Revelation 19 still be here during the 2nd coming if Daniel 7:21 has already been fulfilled? How can Daniel 7:21 not be meaning the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13? What follows that reign? Is it not the 2nd coming? How can Daniel 7:22 not involve the 2nd coming, then? In Daniel 7:22---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High---how can that not be meaning this in Revelation 20:4---and judgment was given unto them?

Daniel 7:21-22: “I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”

Amillennialists normally relate Daniel 7:21-22 to the persecution of the Roman Empire on the early church and the widespread martyrdom that attended that. They correlate that with Revelation 20 and the depicted victory that marks those who die in Christ during this current era. Amillennialists believe Revelation 20 starts at the first resurrection and shows an ongoing period of victory for the saints over sin, death, the beast and Satan. The saints that survived this awful persecution continued to reign in supernatural power as the kingdom of God invaded the nations. The Gospel could not be stopped. The fire of Revival spread from nation to nation as the Church implemented the great commission. Despite the unprecedented opposition, the heathen Gentile world began to embrace the truth in their millions. As kings and priests the Church carried authority. Revelation 20 depicts even the dead in Christ reign in power and victory. They are shown to possess the kingdom of God and exercise judgement over the kingdom of darkness.

 

[claninja]

Amils all accept that Rev 20 relates to the intra-Advent period. That sees the binding of the devil and the widespread expansion of the Gospel to the once blinded nations. Satan's little season that John occurs before the one final future climatic coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Satan is a spiritual being and operates in the spiritual realm. He is not bound by space and time. The term "short" is relative to who is purported to operate there. For humans a few days, weeks or years can be classed as a short period of time. For God, time is just a blink for Him. I believe it is the same for Satan. Time is short compared to eternity.

I understand that Amils believe the 1,000 years is symbolic for the intra advent period.

I understand that Amils believe that Satan's little season occurs before the future 2nd coming of Christ.

I understand that Amils/premils/other futurists spiritualize time frames.

That, however, is not what I asked. I am trying to understand what the Amil's position is in regards to Revelation 12:13-16, which mentions satan's little season as occurring upon his casting out of heaven.

Revelation 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

From the Amil perspective, are these "little seasons" one in the same? OR are they different little seasons, one occurring after being cast out of heaven and one before the 2nd coming?

 

[claninja]

If we consider Daniel 7, for instance. Daniel 7:21 appears to be meaning the same beast that is destroyed in Revelation 19. And the next verse in Daniel 7, verse 22, appears to be meaning when the saints inherit the kingdom.

Notice the angel's simplistic interpretation of the vision is that there would be FOUR earthly kingdoms, but the saints would inherit the kingdom for ever.

Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.’

Therefore the destruction of the little horn and saints inheriting the kingdom are within the time frame of the FOUR kingdoms.

Daniel 7:25-27 He shall speak words against the Most High,and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand
for a time, times, and half a time. But the court shall sit in judgment and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end. And the kingdom and the dominion
and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’c

I then see the following parallels, based on the above. There are more than just these, though.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I don't disagree with these comparisons. When you count the heads and horns of the beasts in Daniel 7, there 7 heads and 10 horns. Therefore, revelation's beast, which has the same number of heads and number of horns AND animal characteristics, is just a recap of Daniel 7.

The beast of revelation also has the same characteristics as the little horn (persecute the saints, blaspheme God until a time, times, and half time).

Let's now group these like such.

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them----and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ----and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months----All of these are referring to the same period of time. and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---these were martyred during this same period of time mentioned above. These events are all put to a full end when the following in the next paragraph comes to pass.

Until the Ancient of days came----And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image---this being when the beast in question is destroyed.

and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom----And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them---and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.---this being when the saints inherit the kingdom.

It is after the thousand years when satan is cast into the lake of fire. Everything I submitted above though, some of it is before the thousand years, and some of it is during the thousand years, none of it is after the thousand years.

Therefore, according to Scripture, the beast and false prophet, and satan, are not cast into the lake of fire during the same time period, but are cast into the lake of fire during different times periods altogether, the beast and false prophet being cast into the lake of fire before the thousand years, satan being cast into the lake of fire after the thousand years.

Relying on eschatological biased interpretations, whether it's mine or yours, of Daniel 7 and Revelation 19-20, won't bring us to a conclusive answer. We need to look at the gospels and epistles for understanding. So when do the gospels and epistles proclaim that the saints will inherit the kingdom, for their explanations of when the saints inherit the kingdom are the true interpretations of how Daniel 7 and revelation 19-20 should be understood.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I understand that Amils believe the 1,000 years is symbolic for the intra advent period.

I understand that Amils believe that Satan's little season occurs before the future 2nd coming of Christ.

I understand that Amils/premils/other futurists spiritualize time frames.

That, however, is not what I asked. I am trying to understand what the Amil's position is in regards to Revelation 12:13-16, which mentions satan's little season as occurring upon his casting out of heaven.

Revelation 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

From the Amil perspective, are these "little seasons" one in the same? OR are they different little seasons, one occurring after being cast out of heaven and one before the 2nd coming?

They are not the same. One is a general sweeping statement about how the enemy views the intra-Advent period compared to eternity in the lake of fire. The other refers to a short period of time, in comparison to the Gospel advance during the thousand years, at the end, where the enemy is released to subjugate the great commission.

 

[claninja]

They are not the same. One is a general sweeping statement about how the enemy views the intra-Advent period compared to eternity in the lake of fire. The other refers to a short period of time, in comparison to the Gospel advance during the thousand years, at the end, where the enemy is released to subjugate the great commission.

I would disagree with this interpretation, as this attempt at an explanation for why revelation portrays 2 "little seasons" is found no where in the Gospels or epistles.


Even, the commentaries on revelation 12:12 seem to disagree on if the little season of revelation 12 and 20 are the same or not. For example:

Pulpit
This "short season" is the period of the world's existence from the advent of Satan till the final judgment. It is short in comparison with eternity, and it is frequently thus described in the New Testament (Romans 9:28; 1 Corinthians 7:29; Revelation 3:11, etc.). It is the "little time" of Revelation 6:11; the "little season" of Revelation 20:3, during which Satan must be loosed.

Cambridge.
but a short time] viz. the time, apparently, between Christ’s first coming, which broke his strength, and His second, which will destroy his kingdom for ever. It seems unlikely that the “little season” of Revelation 20:3 is here referred to.

When we do not view the parabolic language of revelation through the lens of the gospels and epistles, our interpretations of revelation become personal.

Therefore I would argue its better to understand passages such as revelation 12 and revelation 20 through the gospels and epistles.

From the gospels and epistles, we know that Satan was to be cast out of heaven at Christ's ascension ( John 12:30-32), that satan would then be coming (John 14:30), that no one, not even satan could accuse the elect because of Christ (romans 8:33-34), that satan and his offspring were persecuting/waging war against the body of Christ (1 thessalonians 2:14-18, 2 corinthians 11:14, 2 timothy 2:26, 1 peter 5:8, 1 john 3:10, Revelation 2:13), and that those in Christ are able to resist the schemes of satan ( James 4:7, ephesians 4:27, ephesians 6:11).

 

[sovereigngrace]

I would disagree with this interpretation, as this attempt at an explanation for why revelation portrays 2 "little seasons" is found no where in the Gospels or epistles.


Even, the commentaries on revelation 12:12 seem to disagree on if the little season of revelation 12 and 20 are the same or not. For example:

Pulpit
This "short season" is the period of the world's existence from the advent of Satan till the final judgment. It is short in comparison with eternity, and it is frequently thus described in the New Testament (Romans 9:28; 1 Corinthians 7:29; Revelation 3:11, etc.). It is the "little time" of Revelation 6:11; the "little season" of Revelation 20:3, during which Satan must be loosed.

Cambridge.
but a short time] viz. the time, apparently, between Christ’s first coming, which broke his strength, and His second, which will destroy his kingdom for ever. It seems unlikely that the “little season” of Revelation 20:3 is here referred to.

When we do not view the parabolic language of revelation through the lens of the gospels and epistles, our interpretations of revelation become personal.

Therefore I would argue its better to understand passages such as revelation 12 and revelation 20 through the gospels and epistles.

From the gospels and epistles, we know that Satan was to be cast out of heaven at Christ's ascension ( John 12:30-32), that satan would then be coming (John 14:30), that no one, not even satan could accuse the elect because of Christ (romans 8:33-34), that satan and his offspring were persecuting/waging war against the body of Christ (1 thessalonians 2:14-18, 2 corinthians 11:14, 2 timothy 2:26, 1 peter 5:8, 1 john 3:10, Revelation 2:13), and that those in Christ are able to resist the schemes of satan ( James 4:7, ephesians 4:27, ephesians 6:11).

Both of these commentators link the little season to the period preceded the second coming, unlike you who locates it in the past. Neither of these therefore agree with your position. For information: the second coming has not happened. It is still future! Only Full Preterists claim otherwise. Such heresy is banned on this forum.

 

[claninja]

Both of these commentators link the little season to the period preceded the second coming, unlike you who locates it in the past. Neither of these therefore agree with your position. For information: the second coming has not happened. It is still future! Only Full Preterists claim otherwise. Such heresy is banned on this forum.

This doesn’t really address anything I put forth. I never stated the commentaries I posted, agree with me. I posted them as they don’t agree with each other, as stated in post 556. One believes revelation 12 and 20’s little seasons are the same. One believes they are different.

I believe they are the same. You believe they are different.

I posted I believe they are the same based on the gospels and epistles lacking any evidence that Satan has 2 seasons. In fact the gospels Nor epistles never make a distinction between Satan being in the Abyss or out of the abyss.

From the gospels and epistles, we know that Satan was to be cast out of heaven at Christ's ascension ( John 12:30-32), that satan would then be coming (John 14:30), that no one, not even satan could accuse the elect because of Christ (romans 8:33-34), that satan and his offspring were persecuting/waging war against the body of Christ (1 thessalonians 2:14-18, 2 corinthians 11:14, 2 timothy 2:26, 1 peter 5:8, 1 john 3:10, Revelation 2:13), and that those in Christ are able to resist the schemes of satan ( James 4:7, ephesians 4:27, ephesians 6:11), and that satan was soon to be crushed (romans 16:20).

what gospel and/or epistolic evidence do you have to support your position that the little seasons Of revelation 12 and 20 are distinct?

 

[sovereigngrace]

This doesn’t really address anything I put forth. I never stated the commentaries I posted, agree with me. I posted them as they don’t agree with each other, as stated in post 556. One believes revelation 12 and 20’s little seasons are the same. One believes they are different.

I believe they are the same. You believe they are different.

I posted I believe they are the same based on the gospels and epistles lacking any evidence that Satan has 2 seasons. In fact the gospels Nor epistles never make a distinction between Satan being in the Abyss or out of the abyss.

From the gospels and epistles, we know that Satan was to be cast out of heaven at Christ's ascension ( John 12:30-32), that satan would then be coming (John 14:30), that no one, not even satan could accuse the elect because of Christ (romans 8:33-34), that satan and his offspring were persecuting/waging war against the body of Christ (1 thessalonians 2:14-18, 2 corinthians 11:14, 2 timothy 2:26, 1 peter 5:8, 1 john 3:10, Revelation 2:13), and that those in Christ are able to resist the schemes of satan ( James 4:7, ephesians 4:27, ephesians 6:11), and that satan was soon to be crushed (romans 16:20).

what gospel and/or epistolic evidence do you have to support your position that the little seasons Of revelation 12 and 20 are distinct?

Your confused is akin to that of the Premils. While Satan has movement today, he is still restrained by divine chains which prevent him from curtailing the Gospel spread. For 2000 years the Church has invaded the darkened nations and Satan is powerless to stop that.

Since the first Advent, Satan is shown to be a loser.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 depict Satan as bound, defeated, incapacitated, immobilized, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. As a result of this, John 12:31-33 and Revelation 12:9-13 shows Satan being banished from heaven, along with his demonic angels.

Satan and his minions are seen restrained in the abyss in 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6 and Revelation 9:1-11 before the 7th trumpet (and the second coming). Satan is located there in Revelation 9:11 and Revelation 20:3. While there is no direct Scripture that show the actual moment when the beast is cast into the abyss, Revelation 11:7-9 and Revelation 17:7-8 shows him located there during the intra-Advent period. The one thing we do know is that he was placed there and he is there till just prior to the end.

Satan and his emissaries have not been rendered immobile or inoperative but are limited in their power, control and influence. Satan is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled. Get close to him and he will hurt. Many have opened themselves up to Satan and got hurt. The Church defeats Satan by invading his territory with the light of the Gospel and exercising our delegated power in subjugating devils through the power of the Holy Ghost and by the exercise of faith.

Satan is released from the abyss near the end in Revelation 20:7. The release of Satan at the end from the abyss restriction (Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:7) corresponds with the beast also rising from the abyss (Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8) and also the many fallen angels (Revelation 9:1-11). This reinforces that this all relates to a period before the second coming.

Most theologians rightly connect the beast to both antichrist and the mystery of iniquity. 2 Thessalonians 2:7 shows a release of the mystery of iniquity before Christ’s return: “he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed.” Whenever God is ready, the restrainer will step back; that is, the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way (2 Thessalonians 2:7). Then, says Paul, the lawless one will be given full power to deceive them that perish.

With the last throw of the dice the whole kingdom of darkness is eliminated. We learn when his demise comes: “whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming” (2 Thessalonians 2:7).

Daniel 7:9-11 and Revelation 19:19-20 also confirm the beast is eliminated at the second coming. Isaiah 26:19-27:1 and Revelation 20:10–14 show that this is the time where Satan is finally destroyed.

 

[sovereigngrace]

This doesn’t really address anything I put forth. I never stated the commentaries I posted, agree with me. I posted them as they don’t agree with each other, as stated in post 556. One believes revelation 12 and 20’s little seasons are the same. One believes they are different.

I believe they are the same. You believe they are different.

I posted I believe they are the same based on the gospels and epistles lacking any evidence that Satan has 2 seasons. In fact the gospels Nor epistles never make a distinction between Satan being in the Abyss or out of the abyss.

From the gospels and epistles, we know that Satan was to be cast out of heaven at Christ's ascension ( John 12:30-32), that satan would then be coming (John 14:30), that no one, not even satan could accuse the elect because of Christ (romans 8:33-34), that satan and his offspring were persecuting/waging war against the body of Christ (1 thessalonians 2:14-18, 2 corinthians 11:14, 2 timothy 2:26, 1 peter 5:8, 1 john 3:10, Revelation 2:13), and that those in Christ are able to resist the schemes of satan ( James 4:7, ephesians 4:27, ephesians 6:11), and that satan was soon to be crushed (romans 16:20).

what gospel and/or epistolic evidence do you have to support your position that the little seasons Of revelation 12 and 20 are distinct?

When did/does the thousand years begin?
When did/does the thousand years end?
What notable events mark both?