15 years added to Hezekiah's life and its problems for foreknowledge and open theism

mcarans

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redleghunter

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God adds 15 years to Hezekiah's life. He changes His mind - a problem for foreknowledge and adds precisely 15 years, a problem for open theism. The article details the problem and proposes how kenotic openness might work for this case.

15 years added to Hezekiah's life and its problems for foreknowledge and open theism : cruciformity

How do you square God changing His mind and adding 15 years to Hezekiah's life and His foreknowledge about Hezekiah's death?
Not a problem at all. Hezekiah was going to die unless something changed.

The real issue if you want to discuss something penetrating is that without the 15 years of longer life would have Manasseh become king.
 
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Jonaitis

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I didn't see the article, but you're right, it is a problem for those who believe that God merely looks down the tunnels of time to determine an event. He interacted with Hezekiah here. This is further a problem for open theism.
 
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mcarans

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Not a problem at all. Hezekiah was going to die unless something changed.

The real issue if you want to discuss something penetrating is that without the 15 years of longer life would have Manasseh become king.
Not a problem for foreknowledge or open theism?
 
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mcarans

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Hezekiah was going to die unless something changed.
That is the point. God makes it clear He is changing His mind in response to Hezekiah's prayer when He says "I have heard your prayer...I will add fifteen years to your life." If He foreknew that He would change His mind, then that wouldn't be a real response to Hezekiah's prayer - He wouldn't "have heard your prayer", He would have foreseen Hezekiah's prayer.
 
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bling

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God adds 15 years to Hezekiah's life. He changes His mind - a problem for foreknowledge and adds precisely 15 years, a problem for open theism. The article details the problem and proposes how kenotic openness might work for this case.

15 years added to Hezekiah's life and its problems for foreknowledge and open theism : cruciformity

How do you square God changing His mind and adding 15 years to Hezekiah's life and His foreknowledge about Hezekiah's death?
First off: Would it have been better for Hezekiah to have died than to have lived 15 more years? The son who took over after his death was less than 15 years old and he did about as bad of a job as you could do. Hezekiah in his last 15 years, also showed off to foreigners the wealth he had against God's orders, which caused them to later invade and put a huge siege on Jerusalem.

We can all learn a lot from this:

God does know the future and it is the best future obedient believers can have even if we are in heaven tomorrow. It is also best for us not to count on having a set amount of years, since we need to worry about the future we are creating right now to leave to others. Hezekiah did not use wisely the future he was given and lived through some real hardships.

Hezekiah is not saying: “Your will not mine”, so we get to see some real flaws in Hezekiah’s “goodness”.

This is a similar situation to Jeremiah 18, God knows ahead of time what Hezekiah is going to want and ask for and because Hezekiah has been a good king, but will sin at this time, God is going to heal him, but God also knows and wants everyone to know it would be best for Hezekiah to die right then. People often wonder why good people die early and this can be used to explain why. God did not say: “You might die” since that would suggest God did not know the future and cannot say: “You will live” even though that is what will happen, since it will be Hezekiah fault and not God's fault he lives on, so how can God get across: “It would be best for Hezekiah to die then and yet allow Hezekiah to live because of Hezekiah’s foolishness/sin (free will choice)”.

Jer. 18: 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

God is announcing good news to Hezekiah: “you will die”, but Hezekiah who has been very good up until then, say: “not your will but my will be done”, so God does not do the good He intended, but will punish Hezekiah going against God by living.
 
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redleghunter

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That is the point. God makes it clear He is changing His mind in response to Hezekiah's prayer when He says "I have heard your prayer...I will add fifteen years to your life." If He foreknew that He would change His mind, then that wouldn't be a real response to Hezekiah's prayer - He wouldn't "have heard your prayer", He would have foreseen Hezekiah's prayer.
I think I answered this in post #5. It is not impossible for a Sovereign and Immutable God.

Or do you consider a Sovereign and Immutable God unable to see the petitions of His people?
 
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mcarans

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First off: Would it have been better for Hezekiah to have died than to have lived 15 more years? The son who took over after his death was less than 15 years old and he did about as bad of a job as you could do. Hezekiah in his last 15 years, also showed off to foreigners the wealth he had against God's orders, which caused them to later invade and put a huge siege on Jerusalem.

We can all learn a lot from this:

God does know the future and it is the best future obedient believers can have even if we are in heaven tomorrow. It is also best for us not to count on having a set amount of years, since we need to worry about the future we are creating right now to leave to others. Hezekiah did not use wisely the future he was given and lived through some real hardships.

Hezekiah is not saying: “Your will not mine”, so we get to see some real flaws in Hezekiah’s “goodness”.

This is a similar situation to Jeremiah 18, God knows ahead of time what Hezekiah is going to want and ask for and because Hezekiah has been a good king, but will sin at this time, God is going to heal him, but God also knows and wants everyone to know it would be best for Hezekiah to die right then. People often wonder why good people die early and this can be used to explain why. God did not say: “You might die” since that would suggest God did not know the future and cannot say: “You will live” even though that is what will happen, since it will be Hezekiah fault and not God's fault he lives on, so how can God get across: “It would be best for Hezekiah to die then and yet allow Hezekiah to live because of Hezekiah’s foolishness/sin (free will choice)”.

Jer. 18: 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

God is announcing good news to Hezekiah: “you will die”, but Hezekiah who has been very good up until then, say: “not your will but my will be done”, so God does not do the good He intended, but will punish Hezekiah going against God by living.
If God announced to you that you or a relative would die, would you take it as good news?
 
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mcarans

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I think I answered this in post #5. It is not impossible for a Sovereign and Immutable God.

Or do you consider a Sovereign and Immutable God unable to see the petitions of His people?
I'm not sure what your view is on free will, but if we are robots on a production line following a Divine sequence of actions then God sees our petitions because He wrote them.
 
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redleghunter

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I'm not sure what your view is on free will, but if we are robots on a production line following a Divine sequence of actions then God sees our petitions because He wrote them.
No that’s not the Sovereignty of God.
 
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1213

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How do you square God changing His mind and adding 15 years to Hezekiah's life and His foreknowledge about Hezekiah's death?

I think it doesn’t necessary mean that God changed His mind. In the first part God didn’t say when Hezekiah dies and as we know Hezekiah died eventually. Also, if he would not react as he did, maybe he would not have lived 15 years after that. Maybe the point was to make him react as he did so that he could live longer. I think God’s sayings are usually conditional, result depends on what happens.
 
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redleghunter

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OK, what is?

God is Sovereign

Exo 15:18 The LORD will reign forever and ever.”

1Ch 29:11-12 Yours, O LORD, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is yours. Yours is the kingdom, O LORD, and you are exalted as head above all. Both riches and honor come from you, and you rule over all. In your hand are power and might, and in your hand it is to make great and to give strength to all.

2Ch 20:6 and said, “O LORD, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand you.

Psa 22:28 For kingship belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
He exercises that sovereignty in actively ordaining everything

Deu 32:39 “’See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

1Sa 2:6-8 The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. The LORD makes poor and makes rich; he brings low and he exalts. He raises up the poor from the dust; he lifts the needy from the ash heap to make them sit with princes and inherit a seat of honor. For the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, and on them he has set the world.

Job 9:12 Behold, he snatches away; who can turn him back? Who will say to him, ‘What are you doing?’

Job 12:6-10 The tents of robbers are at peace, and those who provoke God are secure, who bring their god in their hand. “But ask the beasts, and they will teach you; the birds of the heavens, and they will tell you; or the bushes of the earth, and they will teach you; and the fish of the sea will declare to you. Who among all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this? In his hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind.

Psa 33:11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations.

Psa 115:3 Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

Psa 135:6 Whatever the LORD pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.

Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts has sworn: “As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand,

Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

1Ki 22:20 and the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’...1Ki 22:34 But a certain man drew his bow at random and struck the king of Israel between the scale armor and the breastplate. Therefore he said to the driver of his chariot, “Turn around and carry me out of the battle, for I am wounded.” ...1Ki 22:37 So the king died, and was brought to Samaria. And they buried the king in Samaria.

Isa 44:28 who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and he shall fulfill all my purpose’; saying of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be built,’ and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be laid.’”

Amo 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the LORD has done it?

Act 2:22-23 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Act 4:27-28 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Phi 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Psa 104:5-10 He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved. You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains. At your rebuke they fled; at the sound of your thunder they took to flight. The mountains rose, the valleys sank down to the place that you appointed for them. You set a boundary that they may not pass, so that they might not again cover the earth. You make springs gush forth in the valleys; they flow between the hills;

Psa 104:13-14 From your lofty abode you water the mountains; the earth is satisfied with the fruit of your work. You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth

Psa 104:19-20 He made the moon to mark the seasons; the sun knows its time for setting. You make darkness, and it is night, when all the beasts of the forest creep about.

Mar 4:39 And he awoke and rebuked the wind and said to the sea, “Peace! Be still!” And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.

Job 33:12-13 “Behold, in this you are not right. I will answer you, for God is greater than man. Why do you contend against him, saying, ‘He will answer none of man’s words’?

Isa 29:16 You turn things upside down! Shall the potter be regarded as the clay, that the thing made should say of its maker, “He did not make me”; or the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding”?

Isa 45:9-10 “Woe to him who strives with him who formed him, a pot among earthen pots! Does the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’ or ‘Your work has no handles’? Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’ or to a woman, ‘With what are you in labor?’”

Mat 20:1-16 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, and to them he said, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went. Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing. And he said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’ And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.’ And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. Now when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius. And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house, saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’ So the last will be first, and the first last.”

Rom 9:19-24 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Exo 6:7 I will take you to be my people, and I will be your God, and you shall know that I am the LORD your God, who has brought you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

Deu 7:6-8 “For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the LORD set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but it is because the LORD loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Deu 10:14-15 Behold, to the LORD your God belong heaven and the heaven of heavens, the earth with all that is in it. Yet the LORD set his heart in love on your fathers and chose their offspring after them, you above all peoples, as you are this day.

Psa 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!

Isa 43:20-21 The wild beasts will honor me, the jackals and the ostriches, for I give water in the wilderness, rivers in the desert, to give drink to my chosen people, the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.

Psa 65:4 Blessed is the one you choose and bring near, to dwell in your courts! We shall be satisfied with the goodness of your house, the holiness of your temple!

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Rom 8:28-30 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Rom 9:10-24 And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared before hand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Rom 11:5-7 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. What then? Israel failed to
obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

Eph 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Eph 1:11-12 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

1Th 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

1Th 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

2Th 2:13-14 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Rom 9:17-18 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Rom 9:21-22 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

1Pe 2:8 and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

More upon request.
 
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mcarans

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God is Sovereign

Exo 15:18 The LORD will reign forever and ever.”

1Ch 29:11-12 Yours, O LORD, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is yours. Yours is the kingdom, O LORD, and you are exalted as head above all. Both riches and honor come from you, and you rule over all. In your hand are power and might, and in your hand it is to make great and to give strength to all.

2Ch 20:6 and said, “O LORD, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand you.

Psa 22:28 For kingship belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
He exercises that sovereignty in actively ordaining everything

Deu 32:39 “’See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

1Sa 2:6-8 The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. The LORD makes poor and makes rich; he brings low and he exalts. He raises up the poor from the dust; he lifts the needy from the ash heap to make them sit with princes and inherit a seat of honor. For the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, and on them he has set the world.

Job 9:12 Behold, he snatches away; who can turn him back? Who will say to him, ‘What are you doing?’

Job 12:6-10 The tents of robbers are at peace, and those who provoke God are secure, who bring their god in their hand. “But ask the beasts, and they will teach you; the birds of the heavens, and they will tell you; or the bushes of the earth, and they will teach you; and the fish of the sea will declare to you. Who among all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this? In his hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind.

Psa 33:11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations.

Psa 115:3 Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

Psa 135:6 Whatever the LORD pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.

Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts has sworn: “As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand,

Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

1Ki 22:20 and the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’...1Ki 22:34 But a certain man drew his bow at random and struck the king of Israel between the scale armor and the breastplate. Therefore he said to the driver of his chariot, “Turn around and carry me out of the battle, for I am wounded.” ...1Ki 22:37 So the king died, and was brought to Samaria. And they buried the king in Samaria.

Isa 44:28 who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and he shall fulfill all my purpose’; saying of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be built,’ and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be laid.’”

Amo 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the LORD has done it?

Act 2:22-23 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Act 4:27-28 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Phi 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Psa 104:5-10 He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved. You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains. At your rebuke they fled; at the sound of your thunder they took to flight. The mountains rose, the valleys sank down to the place that you appointed for them. You set a boundary that they may not pass, so that they might not again cover the earth. You make springs gush forth in the valleys; they flow between the hills;

Psa 104:13-14 From your lofty abode you water the mountains; the earth is satisfied with the fruit of your work. You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth

Psa 104:19-20 He made the moon to mark the seasons; the sun knows its time for setting. You make darkness, and it is night, when all the beasts of the forest creep about.

Mar 4:39 And he awoke and rebuked the wind and said to the sea, “Peace! Be still!” And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.

Job 33:12-13 “Behold, in this you are not right. I will answer you, for God is greater than man. Why do you contend against him, saying, ‘He will answer none of man’s words’?

Isa 29:16 You turn things upside down! Shall the potter be regarded as the clay, that the thing made should say of its maker, “He did not make me”; or the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding”?

Isa 45:9-10 “Woe to him who strives with him who formed him, a pot among earthen pots! Does the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’ or ‘Your work has no handles’? Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’ or to a woman, ‘With what are you in labor?’”

Mat 20:1-16 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, and to them he said, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went. Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing. And he said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’ And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.’ And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. Now when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius. And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house, saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’ So the last will be first, and the first last.”

Rom 9:19-24 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Exo 6:7 I will take you to be my people, and I will be your God, and you shall know that I am the LORD your God, who has brought you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

Deu 7:6-8 “For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the LORD set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but it is because the LORD loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Deu 10:14-15 Behold, to the LORD your God belong heaven and the heaven of heavens, the earth with all that is in it. Yet the LORD set his heart in love on your fathers and chose their offspring after them, you above all peoples, as you are this day.

Psa 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!

Isa 43:20-21 The wild beasts will honor me, the jackals and the ostriches, for I give water in the wilderness, rivers in the desert, to give drink to my chosen people, the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.

Psa 65:4 Blessed is the one you choose and bring near, to dwell in your courts! We shall be satisfied with the goodness of your house, the holiness of your temple!

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Rom 8:28-30 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Rom 9:10-24 And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared before hand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Rom 11:5-7 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. What then? Israel failed to
obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

Eph 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Eph 1:11-12 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

1Th 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

1Th 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

2Th 2:13-14 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Rom 9:17-18 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Rom 9:21-22 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

1Pe 2:8 and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

More upon request.
Please summarise in one or two bullet points the salient information.
 
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redleghunter

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Please summarise in one or two bullet points what you understand Sovereign to mean.
Done several times.

The Sovereignty of God is the biblical teaching that all things are under God's rule and control, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission. God works not just some things but all things according to the counsel of His own will (see Eph. 1:11). His purposes are all-inclusive and never thwarted (see Isa. 46:11); nothing takes Him by surprise. The sovereignty of God is not merely that God has the power and right to govern all things, but that He does so, always and without exception. In other words, God is not merely sovereign de jure (in principle), but sovereign de facto (in practice).
 
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mcarans

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Done several times.

The Sovereignty of God is the biblical teaching that all things are under God's rule and control, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission. God works not just some things but all things according to the counsel of His own will (see Eph. 1:11). His purposes are all-inclusive and never thwarted (see Isa. 46:11); nothing takes Him by surprise. The sovereignty of God is not merely that God has the power and right to govern all things, but that He does so, always and without exception. In other words, God is not merely sovereign de jure (in principle), but sovereign de facto (in practice).
Thanks, so how is that different to what I said about humans being robots on a production line following a Divine sequence of actions?
 
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