144,000

[visionary]

Thank you Temptifaith,

I do pray though.



That would be a thrilling experience for sure. However the following is the setting I deal with, along with my sometimes very unwilling wife.

The setting is literlly a traditional(meaning non messianic) Conservetive Shul in the big town about 90 miles to our north. Sometimes it is an M.O. Shul in a town about 70 miles further away from the first Shul I mentioned, about 170 or so miles from our compound at the edge of a Rez in the sticks where we live.

Anyway there(either place) we attend Torah service and afterward usually there is an Oneg( Joy, food, drink, prayers at the end more or less and pleasant conversation). It is during Oneg we have the chance to converse with our friends. Needless to say we do not jump up and shout "Have you heard of the 4 spiritual laws? and G-d has a plan for your life" or whatever. Also, I've never had the experience of seeing a salesman coming to the Shul on Shabbat and ringing the doorbell. We try to be with real Jews, since we are, and not wait for the occassional disenfranchised alienated Jew to just run into at the mall or whereever.

Realize most synagogue Jews I know don't normally ever converse about Jesus. Thsy don't care. Also, trying to sell them Isa. 53 is futile because most of them have been forewarned and counter educated against that line and other pitches xtians try to make.

So, we're sitting at the table, one of 30 or so, and once in a great while one of our folks will ask some sort of question like this(which is rare). "Hey aniello, SiouxJew, have you ever read any of the prophets/nevi'im?" And we try to veeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrry carefully answer; "yes,............why?" Hopefully we will have a conversation that will eventually lead to the fact that the Temple was destroyed(no joy in that for us) therefore there can be no valid(per Torah) blood sacrifice made for sin, and, thus, where does that leave us?

Generally, and as concisely as I know to put it, they will reply that they are Torah instructed(from their rabbi) to do t'shuvah, tefilah and tzedakah. Plus one other little thing, at least from most of our friends.


"
O Israel, return to the L-RD your G-d,
For you have stumbled because of your iniquity;

Take words with you,
And return to the L-RD.
Say to Him,
"Take away all iniquity;
Receive us graciously,
For we will offer the sacrifices of our lips. "

As far as my friends are concerned that gets it, complete with required sacrifice.

And so there it culminates as far as they are concerned. As you surely know they don't accept NT, most will not listen to it, at this point.

So, you tell me, what had a person better be able to prove, from the Tenack only, that thus and such is still required, that nothing, essentially, changed?

What, specifically and literally, would you counter with?

Yep.. that is it ninety percent of the time with regular non believers every day at the work place. But in rare moments, the Lord does place someone in your path to speak that which He has inspired you earlier on.

 

[aniello]

Yep.. that is it ninety percent of the time with regular non believers every day at the work place. But in rare moments, the Lord does place someone in your path to speak that which He has inspired you earlier on.

That's nice.

I asked a direct question.

 

[yedida]

These people do know that you are a Yeshua-believing Jew, yes? If so, then your actions will be the letter for Yeshua that they will read. And that's even better than just having a discussion with words. There may be far more than you know whom you have touched in your daily walk with Him.

 

[aniello]

These people do know that you are a Yeshua-believing Jew, yes? If so, then your actions will be the letter for Yeshua that they will read. And that's even better than just having a discussion with words. There may be far more than you know whom you have touched in your daily walk with Him.

Yes, for reasons I'll not share here, though I had hoped someday I could, we are accepted fully, wife reads Parsha from the Bima, about 6 weeks or so, and we in turn support their efforts at "community" something apparently foreign to gringos and I can serve to form a minyon, though I am the dummy of the group, but I'll admit it. These folks no more are impressed as to how I walk that Hogan's goat. Good grief.

I asked a question, hoping to be equipped to answer their question. No one here cares enough to even try to dig for a viable answer. Just churchey stuff.

So, no one here has ever successfully countered the Anti-Missionaries, it seems.

I expected more than churchese derived cliches.

Fine. I consider the issue dropped, period, now.

 

[yedida]

Yes, for reasons I'll not share here, though I had hoped someday I could, we are accepted fully, wife reads Parsha from the Bima, about 6 weeks or so, and we in turn support their efforts at "community" something apparently foreign to gringos and I can serve to form a minyon, though I am the dummy of the group, but I'll admit it. These folks no more are impressed as to how I walk that Hogan's goat. Good grief.

I asked a question, hoping to be equipped to answer their question. No one here cares enough to even try to dig for a viable answer. Just churchey stuff.

So, no one here has ever successfully countered the Anti-Missionaries, it seems.

I expected more than churchese derived cliches.

Fine. I consider the issue dropped, period, now.

I didn't deserve that aniello! And neither did anyone else. Most of us don't worship in a Jewish synagogue so, no, we can't identify and offer the answers you're seeking. I'm sorry for that, but it's not among our experiences.

 

[Temptinfates]

Sorry, Aniello. I was not asuming that you don't pray. It is just my first idea of what to do.
Temptinfates

 

[aniello]

I didn't deserve that aniello! And neither did anyone else. Most of us don't worship in a Jewish synagogue so, no, we can't identify and offer the answers you're seeking. I'm sorry for that, but it's not among our experiences.

It was not intended as ad hominem. It was a general group remark. Also, I didn't deserve the diddle daddle I got.

Since precious few of those in power here associate with Jews, shoulder to shoulder, I have a question.

I have no doubt whatsoever y'all are Messianic.

But y'all are not Jewish for the most part, thus, isn't the use of the term Judaism at best a misnomer, at worst an intended misrepresentation perhaps a deception, an insult to Jews? We have sensitivities too, as well as you people.

It's significant that the powers that be here don't really get close to we Jews. Explains much.

You people all can have whatever this thing is. We kikes know our place. Thank G-d it ain't mine. Enjoy.

 

[Chaplain David]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post in your forum and I am very glad to be here. I hope to get to know you better and also learn more about Messianic Judaism. This is a very interesting thread.

Faithfully,

Sacerdote

 

[Temptinfates]

Welcome. There are some stickys at top of main to help explain Messianic Judaism.
Temptinfates

 

[Chaplain David]

Welcome. There are some stickys at top of main to help explain Messianic Judaism.
Temptinfates

Thank you Sir.

 

[visionary]

Aniello.. I have been to the local reform synagogue, and know quite a few of the attendees. There isn't much talk on spiritual matters there. The usual friendly get together, sing the songs, listen to the Rabbi and enjoy good food, good friends, and so I have not had any opportunities open up in the synagogue. On the other hand, I met a fellow worker's hubby who is of a Cohan line. His daddy looks after a synagogue in Egypt. He married an American Gentile wife after being dumped by His Jewish wife. We would visit at each other's homes and around the table conversations would get interesting. The stories that man could tell. It gave me a window of learning into what makes a Cohan think.. at least this one... lol.. Even so.. the Lord did not inspire or come to talk at any of our gatherings.

 

[Henaynei]

My brother,

It was not intended as ad hominem. It was a general group remark. Also, I didn't deserve the diddle daddle I got.

your remarks clearly communicate frustration, even pain, I grant you that. But as a man who makes his living communicating and who is schooled in the art of verbal thrust and parry, you could hardly be unaware of the tone and tenor of your remarks or how they would be received.

Since precious few of those in power here associate with Jews, shoulder to shoulder, I have a question.

I have no doubt whatsoever y'all are Messianic.

But y'all are not Jewish for the most part, thus, isn't the use of the term Judaism at best a misnomer, at worst an intended misrepresentation perhaps a deception, an insult to Jews? We have sensitivities too, as well as you people.

again, you are clearly and deliberately voicing your frustration and disappointment, (and perhaps antagonism?) by the tone and terms you choose.

None on this forum are "in power here." Some, like me perhaps, have bigger mouths and stronger voices than others. But the only "powers" here are the mods. As you may be aware we have No hand in choosing our mods, and if one becomes a mod they have little choice in which forums they are assigned.

This movement was started by Jews, and for my money, shiksa that I am, it should still be run by Jews, period. Messianic Jews. As such since, though struggling at the moment somewhat, Jews in this movement are still, hand on the tiller, setting the direction of the bow, she still flies under the Messianic JEWISH flag.

It is an unfortunate truth that goyim vastly out number the Jews in this world, no matter where you go, and, by virtue of demographics,that includes Messianic Judaism. The same is true here in this forum. But I can tell you this...

I've been a member of this forum for something like 8 years. Even though I've been relatively silent over the last 4 years I, nevertheless, have dropped in and "listened" from time to time. There are currently more Messianic JEWS truly committed to and founded on the Whole Bible than at any time I can remember. The same is true of truly Torah positive Gentiles. You should have seen the zoo a few years back we've come a long way, and we are still moving toward maturity, some faster than others.

So, no, the name of neither the movement nor this forum is a misnomer, how much less "an intended misrepresentation perhaps a deception, an insult to Jew."

It's significant that the powers that be here don't really get close to we Jews. Explains much.

As I stated earlier, none of "the usual suspects" who post here are "powers that be." As for Gentiles here or in the movement, when we seek the association you suggest we are not welcomed (as is natural and appropriate - we spent nearly 2000 years teaching the Jewish community to distrust us) as "members" of mainstream Jewish congregations and (quite understandably so) usually viewed askance if we try to "get close" to Jewish community or individuals.

Our best chance is to read and study on our own and to seek out opportunities to become acquainted with Judaism. But that is as fraught with pitfalls as if you had tried to learn law by studying law tomes on your own and tried to learn how the law and the court system functions by sitting in the balcony of some rural community court room where the judge was the father of the only prosecutor and the cousin of the public defender.

It is getting better in strong steps though, as more Jews become Messianics who have never been Christians and have never been indoctrinated by the Hellenistic paradigm of Christianity. We are learning better, clearer, faster. But remember that the modern Messianic community is less than 100 years old. Even the strong and elder Jews among us are still learning how Judaism functions in today's world and as followers of Messiah Yeshua.

You people all can have whatever this thing is. We kikes know our place. Thank G-d it ain't mine. Enjoy.

"you people," "kikes" - deliberate inflammatory expressions such as these serve a negative purpose and are extremely effective in shutting down communication, except with silly thick headed and thick skinned folks like me.

Now, about your questions about anti-missionaries. Most of us goyim are humble enough to acknowledge that, where as the anti-missionaries usually immerse themselves for months or years in studies and training for the specific purpose of countering and challenging the message of Messiah Yeshua, we have no such in depth and targeted training.

Most of us know how little we yet know compared to the trained anti-missionaries and wisely refrain from engaging in those situations. Many who have tried to so engage have eventually had to admit their ill equipped status, or worse, have had their faith so confused that they end up renouncing Messiah Yeshua altogether. Discretion and prayer are the better part of valor.

If you earnestly have serious questions that have been presented to you I can try to find resources to help you find answers.

Aniello, you are a lawyer. You have the background, just as Rav Sha'ul did, to understand better than anyone here the pilpul of topical exchanges with an opponent who is a throughly trained student of the fine and biting arguments and the manipulation of detail in the kinds of verbal exchanges involved in the repartee of strongly held opposing ideas.

That you have been moved so strongly by the issue of the questions and the need for clear and solid answers may be the best indicator of a calling of HaShem on your life and why He has seen fit to train you in the schooling of the law. Like the genius advocate of Jewish Law, R Sha'ul, if fully surrendered to HaShem you would be a mighty and spirit sharpened sword in the Service of His Message.

With love, appreciation and honest admiration...

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[Henaynei]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post in your forum and I am very glad to be here. I hope to get to know you better and also learn more about Messianic Judaism. This is a very interesting thread.

Faithfully,

Sacerdote

Welcome Sacerdote

Do check out the stickies as suggested and some of the resources you find there, it will help you understand some of the bare basics of Messianic Judaism

You might also check out this thread where a mod was kind enough to try and understand us
Enlighten me

 

[Chaplain David]

Welcome Sacerdote

Do check out the stickies as suggested and some of the resources you find there, it will help you understand some of the bare basics of Messianic Judaism

You might also check out this thread where a mod was kind enough to try and understand us
Enlighten me

Yes thank you. Henaynei. I am reading, slowly so it will sink in.

 

[Henaynei]

Yes thank you. Henaynei. I am reading, slowly so it will sink in.

You're quite welcome. It is a lot to take in
We respond fairly well to earnest questions once you get a feel for the information. I do suggest you start separate threads for the questions though

 

[Chaplain David]

You're quite welcome. It is a lot to take in
We respond fairly well to earnest questions once you get a feel for the information. I do suggest you start separate threads for the questions though

Thank you. A separate thread is a good idea.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by yedida I didn't deserve that aniello! And neither did anyone else. Most of us don't worship in a Jewish synagogue so, no, we can't identify and offer the answers you're seeking. I'm sorry for that, but it's not among our experiences.

It was not intended as ad hominem. It was a general group remark. Also, I didn't deserve the diddle daddle I got.

Since precious few of those in power here associate with Jews, shoulder to shoulder, I have a question.

I have no doubt whatsoever y'all are Messianic.

But y'all are not Jewish for the most part, thus, isn't the use of the term Judaism at best a misnomer, at worst an intended misrepresentation perhaps a deception, an insult to Jews? We have sensitivities too, as well as you people.

It's significant that the powers that be here don't really get close to we Jews. Explains much.

You people all can have whatever this thing is. We kikes know our place. Thank G-d it ain't mine. Enjoy.

What's a kike? And are you a Jew?

 

[Yahudim]

What's a kike? And are you a Jew?

Yes he is and yes the term refers to Jews though it is considered pejorative in some circles.

Etymology

The source of the term is uncertain. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, it may be an alteration of the endings –ki or –ky common in the personal names of Jews in eastern Europe who immigrated to the United States in the early 20th century.[2] The first recorded use of the term is in 1904.[2][3]

According to Our Crowd, by Stephen Birmingham, the term "kike" was coined as a put-down by the assimilated U.S. Jews from Germany to identify eastern European Jews: "Because many Russian [Jewish] names ended in 'ki', they were called 'kikes'—a German Jewish contribution to the American vernacular. The name then proceeded to be co-opted by non-Jews as it gained prominence in its usage in society, and was later used as a generally derogatory slur.."

According to Leo Rosten,

The word kike was born on Ellis Island when there were Jewish immigrants who were also illiterate (or could not use Latin alphabet letters), when asked to sign the entry-forms with the customary 'X,'* refused, because they associated an X with the cross of Christianity, and made a circle in its place. The Yiddish word for 'circle' is kikel (pronounced KY-kul), and for 'little circle,' kikeleh (pronounced ky-kul-uh). Before long the immigration inspectors were calling any who signed with an 'O' in placeof an 'X' a kikel or kikeleh or kikee or, finally and succinctly, kike.[4]

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus What's a kike? And are you a Jew?

Yes he is and yes the term refers to Jews though it is considered pejorative in some circles.

Ahhh....I thought the Jews used the star of David icon...my bad

History of God's Holy Bible and the so-called Jews

The Etymology of the Word "Jew"

In his classic Facts are Facts, Jewish historian, researcher and scholar Benjamin Freedman writes:

 

[yedida]

Aneillo is a Messianic Jew. One who is very frustrated. Right about now, most of us here on this forum are very frustrated. Like him, I wonder why I keep coming back, why I bother. Nothing ever changes.