12 Tribes of Israel...+/- A Few

[Yekcidmij]

When looking at the Old Testament, it's difficult to discern a definitive list of the 12 tribes of Israel. In fact, it seems as the the number 12 may be largely symbolic and that there were never exactly 12 tribes or that the composition of the 12 tribes was fluid and wasn't always composed of the same members. We have several listings, many of them total up to 12 (though some don't), but they don't match. Another option could be that the original tribes of Israel may have been less than 12 - perhaps 7 or 10 in number and grew over the years.

See Gen 46, 49; Num 13,26; Deut 33; Josh 13-19; Judg 1,5; 1 Chr 4-8,12,27; Eze 48; Rev 7

 

[Radagast]

When looking at the Old Testament, it's difficult to discern a definitive list of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Huh?

 

[Yekcidmij]

Huh?

Not sure what the "huh" is for. I'm saying it's difficult to produce a list of the 12 tribes of Israel. Can you list them?

 

[Radagast]

Not sure what the "huh" is for. I'm saying it's difficult to produce a list of the 12 tribes of Israel. Can you list them?

The 12 sons of Jacob. For "tribes" in the property-owning sense, drop Levi, and split Joseph in two.

 

[Yekcidmij]

The 12 sons of Jacob. For "tribes" in the property-owning sense, drop Levi, and split Joseph in two.

So who are the 12? And I'm not sure that Joseph is always split in two in the various tribal lists. For example, in Gen 49, we have 12 tribes listed but Joseph isn't split into two. In 1 Chr 27, we see 12 tribes to include Ephraim and Manesseh but no Joseph (if this is what you mean by splitting Joseph into two). And to make the list total to twelve, 1 Ch 27 doen't include Gad or Asher.

 

[Radagast]

For example, in Gen 49, we have 12 tribes listed but Joseph isn't split into two.

Because that's a list of sons. As I said, for "tribes" in the property-owning sense, drop Levi, and split Joseph in two.

In 1 Chr 27, we see 12 tribes to include Ephraim and Manesseh but no Joseph (if this is what you mean by splitting Joseph into two). And to make the list total to twelve, 1 Ch 27 doen't include Gad or Asher.

1 Ch 27 is not a list of tribes; it's a command structure.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Because that's a list of sons. As I said, for "tribes" in the property-owning sense, drop Levi, and split Joseph in two.

Can you point to your references for this? And so I'm clear on what you think, do you conclude that the 12 tribes of Israel only refer to the property owning tribes? I mean, the tribes listed in Gen 49 do total to 12, which would be a happy coincidence if those aren't intended to be the 12 tribes of Israel.

1 Ch 27 is not a list of tribes; it's a command structure.

I agree that it's a command structure, but it's a command structure listing the officers in charge of the tribes, which total to 12.

1 Chr 27:16 "Now in charge of the tribes of Israel..."

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Rueben, Simeon, Napthali, Issachar, Asher, Dan, Zebulon, Gad, Judah, Benjamin, Manasseh and Ephraim - these are the 12 tribes of the Israelite confederation. This corresponds to the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel minus Levi with Joseph split in two, as noted above.

Scriptural references to the tribes of Israel are always these 12 or a portion of them if all 12 aren't mentioned. Some list Levi as a separate tribe of priests as well, but not a politically distinct one.

There is a theory of the Jacob narrative as an aetiological myth that draws on a gradual creation of the confederacy. It says that the children of Leah represent the original confederacy, which was then joined by Rachel's children in some sort of limited Exodus-like event from Egypt. The 4 tribes of the handmaidens were then added later and hence, being latecomers, relegated to being the children of non-wives. Depending on whether they were Canaanite or one of the Sea Peoples, they became associated either with Leah or Rachel's handmaidens respectively. It is interesting as Dan and Issachar as the Denyen and Shekkelesh of Egyptian records are a nice touch, with Asher and Gad clearly having more Canaanite roots, but depends on Issachar and Naphtali having swopped positions as sons of Leah or a handmaiden at some point during redaction of the tribal myths.

I wrote about it a few years ago here, but never got much discussion on its relative merits and deficiencies:
Twelve tribes of Israel as Aetiological Myth

 

[Yekcidmij]

I read recently an interesting theory on the twelve tribes.

Do you have a reference for what you were reading?

It gets complicated as the Biblical account says Issachar was a child of Leah, but there is some evidence of the switching around of Napthali and Issachar. The tribes are always listed in the same order except for these two where one or the other may be placed first. The theory goes that a scribal error caused the changing around of their status due to the mix up in listing.

Some of the tribal lists are in different orders.

Gen 46: Reuben Simeon Levi Judah Issachar Zebulun Gad Asher Joseph Benjamin Dan Naphtali (12)
Gen 49: Reuben Simeon Levi Judah Zebulun Issachar Dan Gad Asher Naphtali Joseph Benjamin (12)
Num13: Reuben Simeon Judah Issachar Ephraim Benjamin Zebulun Joseph Dan Asher Naphtali Gad (12)
Num26: Reuben Simeon Gad Judah Issachar Zebulun Manasseh Ephraim Benjamin Dan Asher Naphtali (12)
Deu 33: Reuben Judah Levi Benjamin Joseph (Ephraim,Manasseh) Zebulun (Issachar) Gad Dan Naphtali Asher (10-13 depending)
Josh 13: Reuben Gad Manasseh (Levi) Manasseh Ephraim Judah Joseph Ephraim Manasseh Benjamin Simeon Zebulun Issachar Asher Naphtali Dan (Joshua?)
Judge 1: Judah Simeon Benjamin Joseph Manasseh Ephraim Zebulun Asher Naphtali Dan (10)
Judge 5: Ephraim Benjamin Makir Zebulun Issachar Reuben Gilead Dan Zebulun Naphtali (10)
1Ch4-8: Judah Simeon Reuben Gad Manasseh Levi Issachar Benjamin Naphtali Manasseh(again) Ephraim Asher (11-12)
1Chr12: Judah Simeon Levi Benjamin Ephraim Manasseh Issachar Zebulun Naphtali Dan Asher Reuben Gad Manasseh(again) (13-14)
1Chr27: Reuben Simeon Levi Aaron Judah Issachar Zebulun Naphtali Ephraim Manasseh Benjamin Dan (12)
Eze 48: Dan Asher Naphtali Manasseh Ephraim Reuben Judah Benjamin Simeon Issachar Zebulun Gad (12)

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Do you have a reference for what you were reading?


Some of the tribal lists are in different orders.

Gen 46: Reuben Simeon Levi Judah Issachar Zebulun Gad Asher Joseph Benjamin Dan Naphtali (12)
Gen 49: Reuben Simeon Levi Judah Zebulun Issachar Dan Gad Asher Naphtali Joseph Benjamin (12)
Num13: Reuben Simeon Judah Issachar Ephraim Benjamin Zebulun Joseph Dan Asher Naphtali Gad (12)
Num26: Reuben Simeon Gad Judah Issachar Zebulun Manasseh Ephraim Benjamin Dan Asher Naphtali (12)
Deu 33: Reuben Judah Levi Benjamin Joseph (Ephraim,Manasseh) Zebulun (Issachar) Gad Dan Naphtali Asher (10-13 depending)
Josh 13: Reuben Gad Manasseh (Levi) Manasseh Ephraim Judah Joseph Ephraim Manasseh Benjamin Simeon Zebulun Issachar Asher Naphtali Dan (Joshua?)
Judge 1: Judah Simeon Benjamin Joseph Manasseh Ephraim Zebulun Asher Naphtali Dan (10)
Judge 5: Ephraim Benjamin Makir Zebulun Issachar Reuben Gilead Dan Zebulun Naphtali (10)
1Ch4-8: Judah Simeon Reuben Gad Manasseh Levi Issachar Benjamin Naphtali Manasseh(again) Ephraim Asher (11-12)
1Chr12: Judah Simeon Levi Benjamin Ephraim Manasseh Issachar Zebulun Naphtali Dan Asher Reuben Gad Manasseh(again) (13-14)
1Chr27: Reuben Simeon Levi Aaron Judah Issachar Zebulun Naphtali Ephraim Manasseh Benjamin Dan (12)
Eze 48: Dan Asher Naphtali Manasseh Ephraim Reuben Judah Benjamin Simeon Issachar Zebulun Gad (12)

I see. There is some repetition and patterning in how they are listed though. I think this had been important to the article I had read.

It was a few years ago, so I am not entirely sure where I read it. I think it was a reference in a book on the Bronze Age collapse that led me to it. I'll try and find it for you when I have some time.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I see. There is some repetition and patterning in how they are listed though. I think this had been important to the article I had read.

It was a few years ago, so I am not entirely sure where I read it. I think it was a reference in a book on the Bronze Age collapse that led me to it. I'll try and find it for you when I have some time.

@Yekcidmij I couldn't find the specific article I had been thinking of when I wrote my original thread. The one I thought it had been is related, as it covers a lot of the argument for Dan being of the Sea Peoples and a little on the rest of it. It is fairly easy to access online, so I have attached it:

And Dan, why did he remain on ships? - by Yisrael Yadin.

If I come across the other one again, I'll post it here though.