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1050 New Testament Commands vs 613 Old Testament Commands, which do we follow?

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by SAAN, Feb 24, 2014.

  1. 613 OT Commands

  2. 1050 NT Commands

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  1. SAAN

    SAAN Newbie

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    Here are various sites that list the commands
    613 Old Testament Commands
    https://www.facebook.com/note.php?sa...50108151373627
    613 commandments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The 613 Commandments
    Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

    1050 New Testament Commands

    1,050 New Testament Commands | Christian Assemblies International
    https://www.facebook.com/note.php?no...50352289233627
    http://www.beit-lechem.com/files/Tea...0or%20life.pdf


    Ive heard so many times that Heaven and Earth has not passed away and not one jot or tittle will change from the law, so we are still supposed to be doing all the laws of the OT. Even if you take away whats applied to men only vs women only vs kings/priests in Torah, its still impossible to do the old law. Alot of the OT law involves the temple and since there isnt one, many of those commands are impossible. I cant stone anyone for breaking a law, we dont go to Jerusalem 3 times a year for the feasts and its commanded in Torah, we cant do the offerings commanded in Numbers 28 on the different feast days or sabbath, and i could go on with many more commands that we cant do now.

    Which leads to believe that Jesus really did fulfill the OT law and we are to live by the commands in the NT. Granted the NT commands are from the OT and are explained to the fullest, I think any command from Torah repeated in the NT is what believers in the New Covenant should live by. Ive looked at all 1000+ commands in and even when you take away any repetitiveness, there are still 800+ commands in the NT and they are all 100% do able, calls us as believers to a higher standard, and shows you how to truly Love God and One another vs the many of the OT commands that have been fulfilled or cant be done now.

    So when Jesus says if you love me you will keep my commands, follow the laws of Christ.

    John 13:34-35
    34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

    John 15:17

    17 This is my command: Love each other.

    1 John 3:23-24

    23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

    1 John 4:21
    21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

    1 John 5:1-3
    5 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

    Galatians 6:2
    2 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

    Matthew 28:19-20


    19 Go therefore[a] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.[b]


    So to those that quote Matt 5:17-20, that not one thing in the law can change and all still stands, which commands do we follow, as I have just listed what Jesus commanded us to do.
     
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  2. Keachian

    Keachian On Sabbatical

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    I personally think that going through a text to find imperatives is wholly misguided in terms of following Christ. Especially when the list for the New Testament takes so many things out of context.
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    First of all the idea that "God has a limit" or a leash of some sort that stops him from having commands - is not very biblical.

    But as for which OT commands that are ended - the "Baptist Confession of Fiath" and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" both admit to the Bible fact that there is moral law, ceremonial law, and civil law in the OT.

    The Ceremonial law ends as Heb 10 tells us when sacrifices and offerings ceased at the cross.

    The civil law for the nation of Israel - applied to a theocracy.

    The moral law remains.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Keachian

    Keachian On Sabbatical

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    Both the BCF and WCF say that Sunday as the Lord's Day has supplanted the "Seventh Day" as the Sabbath for the people of God, if you don't agree with them here and also in their discussion on God's sovereignty in Salvation ie The Doctrines of Grace or TULIP as it is colloquially known then you shouldn't use them as authoritative sources. Your inconsistency invalidates your usage of them.
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    "as the Sabbath" proves my statement -- but more than this - as dozens of quotes of those documents on this board has shown - they believe the same Gen 2:3 Sabbath kept in Eden is applicable to the saints today only "bent" to point to week-day-1 at the cross.

    So as for the point that they maintain all TEN COMMANDMENTS still apply - they themselves make this claim.

    As for the claim that they can "bend" the 4th commandment to point to week-day-1 at the cross - well that is man-made tradition for you. Christ speaks to that point in Mark 7:6-13.

    Obviously that is utter nonsense as this board is filled with examples of people finding points of agreement on some part of one doctrine though they have differences on other points.

    Notice that in this oft-quoted list of Sunday Sources (and some non-Sunday Sources) all of whom admit that the TEN Commandments are TEN and not a down-sized NINE - and that this moral LAW of God remains binding on the saints today - are not all in the TULIP - camp -- in fact most are not in it at all.

    The Baptist Confession of Faith,
    the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
    D.L. Moody,
    R.C Sproul,
    Matthew Henry,
    Thomas Watson,
    The Catholic Catechism.

    Of course this basic Bible truth is also accepted by some groups not "bending" the 4th commandment at all such as

    Seventh-day Baptists
    Seventh-day Adventists (and 100's of other groups)


    I find it odd that you would suggest such a never-agree-until-you-agree-on-everything model given the nature of this very board.

    Who would fall for that?


    in Christ,



    Bob
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  6. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

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    I truly feel sorry for those who must follow some list of rules. Its much easier to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. Please note I didn't say follow one's spirit (desires).

    I can't vote in your poll, :sorry:
     
  7. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

    +0
    :thumbsup::amen::clap:
     
  8. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

    +0
    I'll second that!!
     
  9. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

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    No their use of the word Sabbath doesn't prove your point.

    The Sabbath was never observed in Eden by God or man.
    No they don't. The Ten commandments call the 7th day the Sabbath and your sources call Sunday the Christian Sabbath. This isn't in accord with the Ten Commandments. None of your sources keep or observe the Sabbath in any manner. So your point can only be made by selectively quoting them. This is misquoting for the purpose of deception. I object and very loudly if you haven't noticed.
    Sure if you call the Apostles teaching false doctrine. The Biblical evidence is they worshipped on Sunday prior to the end of the 1st century.
    Bob we have a New Covenant that doesn't mandate the keeping of the 7th day Sabbath. Sorry you haven't noticed.
     
  10. SAAN

    SAAN Newbie

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    But isnt that why God was constantly punishing people through out the bible for not following his commands. Even if you are led by the Hoy Spirit, it still leads you to follow those same rules of God of not killing, stealing, etc. But I do know some people that wont eat jello, marsh mellows. starburst, and some butter biscuits because gelatin is used and gelatin contains pork. That is when I think it goes to far with rules keeping than being led by the spirit.
     
  11. SAAN

    SAAN Newbie

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    So if the ceremonial law ends in Heb 10, why do so many Sabbatarians like to quote Matthew 5:17 and say that not one jot or tittle from the law will ever change, so the law is still in place and the Sabbath is still fully in effect.

    If not one thing in the law can change, that means all the OT law still stands, so Matt 5:17 cant be used to try to justify Sabbath observance or you can just admit that Jesus fulfilled the law and changes have been made.
     
  12. Keachian

    Keachian On Sabbatical

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    ie I don't understand their argument for the change, s a Baptist who holds to the BCF we don't view it as us changing the Sabbath day but Christ irrevocably doing so through his resurrection. The Sabbath was a mini-passover and feast unto God for hi deliverance of the people of Israel out of Egypt, the Lord's Day is a mini-Resurrection day.

    Your claims are still disingenuous. No Reformed group would chuck out Sola Scriptura the way that EGW and her followers have.

    It is irrelevant, you are agreeing on a secondary item to these groups/individuals. It is incredibly disingenuous to say you agree with someone when you don't place the same emphasis on the theology in question.

    The nature of Adventism is such that SDBs are incredibly wary of you and are much more at home with other Baptists than they are with other Sabbatarians, the question you have to face is why is what you consider to be a primary issue seen by the closest group to you that was not influenced by your theology as a secondary issue?
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    There is no statement in all of scripture saying "Christ changed the day of the Sabbath at the cross" for that we have only man-made tradition. I prefer sola-scriptura to man-made tradition bending the TEN Commandments.

    But my point in listing these Sunday sources - is merely to highlight their willingness to affirm the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God - all TEN and not a down-sized nine.

    I don't agree with their bending the 4th - and I think Christ addressed that point well in Mark 7:6-13.

    The Sabbath is not a feast day. It is a day of rest and it was given before Sinai - even the Sunday Sources listed admit that it was given in Eden. That is long before there are any Jews to go around.

    I am agreeing on the very point with these Sunday sources -where so many here oppose them. In fact these Sunday sources go out of their way to condemn the argument for a downsized TEN or a deleted-TEN.

    I like the irony of Andy Stanley's comment that it is a form of "taking God's Name in Vain" to claim that God told you to ignore one of the TEN Commandments.

    In fact I do. I agree with the these details
    1. Sabbath began in Eden not Sinai.
    2. Sabbath as given by God was the 7th day - and began in Eden.
    3. Sabbath binding on all saints from Eden to this very day.
    4. ALL TEN Commandments - the moral Law of God under the NEW Covenant.
    5. All saints to honor and obey the TEN Commandments from Eden to this very day.

    6/The one point where I differ with them is that the Sabbath Commandment can be "bent" to point away from the 7th day as God gave it.

    So then they oppose the argument of those here at war with God's TEN Commandments - on 5 out of the 6 main points - and agree with my views on those very details. Yet I should not mention this glaring conflict with the crowd that they themselves mention and the very argument that these Sunday Sources refute as given by those at war with God's TEN Commandments?

    Really? That makes sense to someone??

    As for the SDB - the Adventsts were FIRST day Adventist for a number of years until a Seventh-day Baptist came along and suggested that the Bible was right on this matter of ALL TEN in "unbent form".

    As for "some" SDB sources being cowed into aligning themselves with anti-Sabbath groups - I would point this out. When this issue first came up to the post-1844 Adventists, the SDB and the Southern Baptists were by far larger than the Adventists. Now the SDAs are larger than both SDB and Southern Baptists combined. It does not bother me that some SDB would be cowed on this or that subject. They have free will, let them do as they choose.

    Since the remainder of your post is ad hominem and more rant-oriented I will let that part go.

    in Christ,
    Bob
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Because we love the teaching of Christ.

    The Commandments of Christ.

    Matt 5 has several -- as it turns out.

    And of course - as Paul said in 1Cor 7:19 when contrasting the moral law of God (the Commandments of God) with the ceremonial law "what matters is KEEPING The Commandments of God"

    What I especially love - is that so many Sunday sources get this obvious point as well.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. LarryP2

    LarryP2 Well-Known Member

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    I grew up SDA. It is a destructive non-Christian cult. Their emphasis on the Sabbath is culturally, historically and Biblically indefensible, and the exact OPPOSITE of the covenant outlined in the New Testament.

    SDA is in a no-man's land between Judaism and Christianity. They ignorantly elevate the Sabbath out of all context with the Mosaic legal scheme. The Jews have 613 Commandments, all of which are equally important. You keep none or you keep them all. This is what the Apostles and Jesus are talking about when they discuss the Mosaic law. The Torah absolutely bans Gentiles from keeping the Sabbath and can be enforced with the Death Penalty. There is NO distinction under the Mosaic law between "Moral" and "Ceremonial" law! TO KEEP THE MOSAIC LAW REQUIRES KEEPING ALL 613 COMMANDMENTS! THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE JUST 10 OUT OF 613.

    The Council of Jerusalem once and for all determined that Gentile Christians should not follow the Mosaic Law, and that only the 7 Noahide laws applied.

    Sabbatarianissm is based on the hilarious idea that Colossians 2:16-17 does not mean what it says.

    SDAs and Sabbatarians need to convert to either Christianity, and repent from their extreme posture of Judaistic arrogance. Or they need to convert to Judaism, build a Temple, start having animal sacrifices and rigorously keep all 613 Commandments.

    Right now, they are neither Christian nor Jewish.
     
  16. Hentenza

    Hentenza I will fear no evil for You are with me Supporter

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    lol I'll go with Jesus rather than the curse of the Law.

    Matt. 11
    28 “Come to Me, all [z]who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is [aa]easy and My burden is light.”
     
  17. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

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    Excellent point! Their argument just doesn't work very well.
     
  18. LarryP2

    LarryP2 Well-Known Member

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    "If not one thing in the law can change, that means all the OT law still stands, so Matt 5:17 cant be used to try to justify Sabbath observance or you can just admit that Jesus fulfilled the law and changes have been made."

    Sabbath Keepers really do not really believe what they propose. They are brazenly dishonest with their claims. If they really believed in what they are claiming, they would be following all 613 Commandments of the Mosaic law. The Sabbath is merely one of 613. There is NO distinction in the Mosaic law between "Moral" and "Ceremonial" laws. You keep them all or none. They come as a package. Picking and choosing among them is not allowed. Gentiles cannot keep any of them until they fully convert to Judaism.

    If they are serious about keeping the Law, they need to get busy and build themselves a Temple and start sacrificing animals, following the monthly, New Moons and yearly Sabbaths and all of the rest of the Mosaic law. Merely keeping the 4th Commandments is just dishonest. That plainly is not allowed under Mosaic law.

    Until then, they should not be taken seriously.
     
  19. SAAN

    SAAN Newbie

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    Exactly, they just need to admit that changes have been made.

    Hebrews 7:12

    New King James Version (NKJV)

    12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.



    Im not saying the Sabbath is abolished, but it will not send you to hell either.
     
  20. LarryP2

    LarryP2 Well-Known Member

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    They are just flattering themselves with unearned self-righteousness.

    Sabbatarian Christianity results from thinking that Colossian 2:16-17 does not mean what it says.

    Gentiles are barred from keeping the Sabbath under Mosaic Law. Many times in the Torah, the Talmud and the Responsa writings, it is emphasized that a Gentile keeping the Sabbath is such a serious offense against the Law, that it carries the Death Penalty as punishment.

    In AD 50, at the Council of Jerusalem, it was once and forever determined that Gentiles would not follow the Mosaic Law. The Apostles, who were Jews themselves, knew good and well how onerous converting to Judaism would be for the Gentile Christians. You cannot keep the Sabbath until you are circumcised and commit to converting to Judaism in full.

    The Council of Jerusalem was where Christianity stopped being merely a sect of Judaism, and became a worldwide religion
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
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