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1 Timothy 4:1-4. Doctrines of demons?

Discussion in 'Christian Scriptures' started by GoldenKingGaze, Feb 11, 2019 at 9:18 AM.

  1. GoldenKingGaze

    GoldenKingGaze Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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    1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
    1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
    1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
    1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

    What does this scripture tell of? When has it happened, and what are it's reaches? Has it reached an end or something more complicated? I want to express my view later and maybe debate it.
     
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  2. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    It addresses quite specifically the teachings of some of the gnostic groups of the time. For their own reasons they prohibited their followers from marrying to prevent the birth of children, and many of those groups also prohibited the eating of meat.
     
  3. GoldenKingGaze

    GoldenKingGaze Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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    Thanks. Would you say more extreme things like the church ordering the bone fire of a non recanting heretic is a work within the doctrine of demons?
     
  4. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    Actually, no. The death penalty by burning was a common form of execution at the time. Death by burning was also specified for acts of homosexuality. Other forms of execution for common felonies were disembowelment, breaking on the wheel, beheading if you were lucky, and being boiled in oil.

    Those forms of execution existed until the writing of the US Bill of Rights specifically abolished them.
     
  5. GoldenKingGaze

    GoldenKingGaze Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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    I refer to the Roman penalty of burning at the stake, brought back, which I think is a sin, by the pope. I think this is how Joan of Arc died.
     
  6. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member

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    The "doctrines of demons" was in reference to the Gnosticism that was prevalent in that day. Gnostic Christianity is what gave birth to religions like Islam..

    But threads like this don't seem to want the true answer. They seek to bash Catholics, from what I've seen so far.

    Christians can be in error and still be saved. Early Catholics had a lot of fighting on their hands where concerned various heresies that were very real and dangerous in order to protect and preserve Christianity.

    Did they make mistakes along the way? Yes.

    At one point in order to fight Islam there occurred what I call the Islamification of Catholicism which I believe to some degree had been corrected today, but there was error made there, although you can't really blame them... it's human nature really.

    But this doesn't make Catholics the poster child for doctrine of demons. It's mistakes or errors (of course they would disagree.. lol) but that's it.

    It's not for us to judge them, in the end - that's for God.

    But doctrines of demons? That's the Gnostics. Today they are those in such serious error they are no longer worshipping the same God...
     
  7. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    Death by burning was never "brought back" by anyone, Pope or not. It always existed. The term "felony" once described a crime that a person could receive the death penalty for, while a "misdemeanor" was a lesser offense deserving of a lesser punishment. That lesser punishment might have included lashing, penning in the iron maiden, locking in stocks, or any other such thing we would find abhorrent today.

    Felonies punishable by death included murder, some thefts, blasphemy against God, and blaspheming the king. A person might also be burned at the stake for "holding opinions conflicting with the opinions of the king".

    You are attempting to paint the Church as chief creator of all punishments of the Middle Ages, and in doing so you are quite wrong. All those punishments inflicting against a person for blasphemy were common forms of execution of the time. They were not "brought back by the Pope".

    As an example of a crime a person could have been executed for at the time, here is an excerpt of Watts vs. United States, as quoted by Supreme Court Justice William Douglas:

    " It is said that one Walter Walker, a 15th century keeper of an inn known as the 'Crown,' was convicted under the Statute of Treasons for telling his son: 'Tom, if thou behavest thyself well, I will make thee heir to the CROWN.' He was found guilty of compassing and imagining the death of the King, hanged, drawn, and quartered."

    Now, until you have studied the punishments of the Middle Ages, felonies of the Middle Ages, and means of execution of the Middle Ages, please don't go accusing the Pope of doing a thing when your accusation is patently wrong.
     
  8. GoldenKingGaze

    GoldenKingGaze Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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    I am not so familiar with the eastern churches. I am friends with Catholics and don't want to bash them. The RCC admits to sin and repented. My parish priest when I was a youth exclaimed humbly that the RCC had been scandalous. And some of the conversion of Europe was after the work of Constantine, and so it was not so spiritual and from the heart... also it was after many of the Godly men of Rome died in persecution. I think Luther had extreme ideas, in keeping with the RCC, and as leaving the wrong teachings, was himself did the wrong things. He had to work with warlords and speak against people sometimes. I think but am not sure, homosexuals would fear to come out in those days in Germany...

    People more withdrew from those doctrines in the great awakenings, in the enlightenment, when Brainerd preached to the Indians, and with civil rights advancing.

    I bash unnecessary war, killing, hate, division, witch hunts, courts with no judge of the court, and kangaroo courts...
     
  9. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I heard a Catholic official doctrine professor say he thinks there will be popes in hell.

    There are people who are trying to make the forbidding to marry and abstaining from meats apply to Roman Catholicism only or mainly. Even though the Catholic Church where I was had stopped requiring us to abstain from meat on Friday, some decades ago, I have recently heard someone claim that even now Catholics are being required to abstain from meat on Friday and one claimed this proves that Paul is talking about the Roman Catholic Church, or something like this.

    So, yes people can use anything to attack whoever they want to criticize.

    My opinion is that the Roman Catholic Church does not directly forbid anyone to marry, but men are expected to voluntarily be celibate in order to be priests. They are expected to make sure with God, about if God wants them to be celibate, and they are expected to make sure that God is making them suitable for this.

    I was clearly taught this while being given Catholic doctrine, and I could understand this before I was in high school, if I remember right. So, in case anyone has taken it on themselves to become priests when they did not make sure with God, they took that on their own selves. But, of course, if it is not God's will to have celibate pastors, then He will not make His approved men able to do what He does not want!! And so, if this is the case, any group who uses false standards will have various problems with ones God has not prepared to serve in their group.

    So > does God require that His pastors be celibate? This is another matter. I consider what our Apostle Paul, who was a celibate, gave for qualifications for who is ready just to be considered to "take care of the church of God" > 1 Timothy 3:1-10.
     
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  10. GoldenKingGaze

    GoldenKingGaze Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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    A lot of priests have expressed that they wish they could marry. But I am not up against the RCC, but ideas found in the RCC and any church using extreme measures.
     
  11. GoldenKingGaze

    GoldenKingGaze Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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    I do not think the first century church would agree to burn someone to death or crucify a sinner, or use an iron maiden... But after Constantine it is different. The Pope should never have gone to extremes. Never been worldly nor Luther ...
     
  12. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    If you ask good questions about a passage and get good answers the interpretation often presents itself. Who is speaking? The Spriit
    When is this coming to pass? In the latter days? When are the latter days? Does it make sense for the Spirit to point that out if as some have suggested it was dealing with issues in that day and not a future time? No
    What will they do? depart from the Faith. Give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons.
    What is the faith? What are seducing spirits? and doctrines of demons?
    if you do a word search for Faith in the Bible is comes us 245 times. If you read all of those verses you will have a real good idea of what the Faith is that these will be departing from. A quick summary of what is in these verses is we are justified by faith counted righteous and saved by faith and giver the Spirit by faith in Jesus so that our lives will reflect a faith in Jesus that produces a repented life and a Christ centered heavenly focus with good works and a growing maturity. Faith finally comes by hearing the word of God. That is studying and knowing the scriptures not just in your head but made alive that changes your whole character, This is what they will depart from.. They are making a trade from a faith filled life to one following seducing Spirits and doctrines of demons. If your church spends 98% of its time talking about you, money and your happiness rather that focusing on what has been described as the faith that is a seducing Spirit. If your church teaches things that contradict the faith such as salvation apart from Jesus and that you can live in your sins and accepts moral practices that the Bible teaches we need repent from that is a doctrine of demons.
    When I found this quote by Anton Levey founder of the church of Satan and writer of the Satanic Bible I figured his philosophy might reflect doctrines of demons.
    Here are some astonishing quotes of his;
    "The Tv set (is the) Satanic family altar."

    "Television is the major mainstream infiltration for the new satanic religion."

    "It should be brought out that we not only condone, but encourage all types of what would be called sexual perversity and deviations because we feel that in a few short years it will be established that everyone is a sexual deviant and pervert.

    In the Satanic Bible, "LaVey explained that he was moved to establish the Church of Satan when he saw the need for a church that would "recapture man's body and carnal desires as objects of celebration."

    "The Church of Satan preaches a religious system that endeavors to overcome the repressions and inhibitions of human instinctual behavior it believes has been fostered by the Judeo-Christian tradition."


    We look around and certainly most churches have departed from the faith. Many are teaching the doctrines of demons with rainbow flags out their celebrating the carnality of man just as Lavey said they would and we are seeing the green religion working towards banning meat as we move forward also this points to Rome who also banned meat on certain days and forbids to marry. Perhaps further down the state will not allow marriage anymore. Who knows about this until it is in hindsight. This appears we are entering the latter days and if you look up latter days you will see many other specifics related to this latter time which relate to Israel and the LORD. This will make a strong case for this as a future prophecy which is being fulfilled and will culminate with the antichrist coming if you integrate the rest of the Bible with this passage.
     
  13. AvgJoe

    AvgJoe Member since 2005 Supporter

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    Perhaps this article will be helpful~~~> www.khouse.org/articles/2014/1171/
     
  14. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hi, Brian :)
    There are a lot of things that can get our attention away from seeking God to change our character to be like Jesus.

    Ones can be fighting mainly about behavior which is outward, without dealing with the need to cure a person's character to the person's actions change. Also, we can see a lot of attention going to politics, in a nation claiming to be about democracy. What can happen is each voter can become one's own dictator! And one's independence can keep one from being able to share closely as God's family with other children of God.

    So, yes there is the constant activity of Satan's kingdom to keep our attention away from personally seeking and submitting to God, and how He personally rules us in His own peace while correcting and maturing our character >

    "And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

    But something I see is how he talks mainly about physical ways of getting control. The real battle is deeper than TV and physical immorality. Ones can read your quotes and then only or mainly struggle against too much TV and against physically wrong ways of sensual stuff.

    But possibly our real battle is about if our attention stays with God, all the time. Oh-h > so, a deception of what he writes is how he only mentions certain things as being what to use to get people's attention away from God. Anything can have power over our attention to distract us!!

    "I will not be brought under the power of any," Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6:12.

    So, since he is of Satan, he can be fooling his own self about what works for Satan's kingdom. But I do notice how he includes immoral activities. So, why would a Satanic being want immoral sensual stuff? Pleasure. I understand how evil invisible beings and humans both can spiritually feel horrible because of sin; so they try to use physical nice feeling things to make themselves feel better. And immoral stuff can involve pleasure which feels nice and it is intense and it can be easy to get it.

    Easy to get pleasure can be why ones want convenience so much.

    We do see, though, how the winner in politics can use TV to get attention and to keep attention away from others.

    So, where our attention is, at every moment, is important.
     
  15. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    Hi I agree with your assessment and look at the progression described in Romans one which we see today as the normal mindset of the world and is becoming the mindset in the church. this is demonstrating again a departure from the faith.

    18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
    24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
    26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
    28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[fn] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[fn] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
     
  16. GoldenKingGaze

    GoldenKingGaze Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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    That article was not so helpful. It mixes some other Pauline scriptures into the same warning. I think it has errors.
     
  17. GoldenKingGaze

    GoldenKingGaze Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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    I think the doctrines of demons at Paul's writing was a few centuries off. Gnosticism was not a church doctrine, so it was not the Gnostic heresy.

    When Satan cannot stop God's men, he gets behind to push them too far. The warning was about extreme measures, that come after some strange rules as in the Timothy quote in the OP. Brutality, cruelty, coldness, numb conscience, seared consciences, sociopaths in power... These were the fruits of the doctrines of demons still simmering in Northern Ireland.

    Division and fighting. The enlightenment and human rights and freedoms, non violent action, these help put those fires out.

    Converting ones the old world would call witches and debate with so called heretics is better. The Holy Spirit embraced again in revivals like Wesley's is great. Most of today's believers are such people captured by the Spirit outside Western countries!
     
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