1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Isn't A Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Don't Be Deceived!

[JacksBratt]

Child dying a hundred years old, is symbolic of "Eternal"

If it stated a child dies at a Ziillion years old, you would believe this meant eternal.

Isaiah 65:17-19 is exactly Revelation 21:1-5

Isaiah 65 is the eternal kingdom.

So, someone dying at 100 is "eternal"?


Not in my book... in my book "eternal" means "no death".

But.... your words are always "Fact"..........Right?

 

[Truth7t7]

So, someone dying at 100 is "eternal"?


Not in my book... in my book "eternal" means "no death".

But.... your words are always "Fact"..........Right?

I suggest you respond to BaBerean's excellent response in post #100 to this passage, and the doctrines created in error.

If ya have time, compare Isaiah 65:17-19 & Revelation 21:1-5, the same exact place, the eternal New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem.

"Eternal"

Isaiah 65:20
"There Shall Be No More Thence An Infant Of Day's"

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Try to focus. Isaiah 65 for example, no need to post the entire chapter. Just post the verses relevant to your point.

Hi that idea of just quoting the relevant verses is how so many people can be led into certain doctrines. Bible study is finding the context it is written in and not just pulling a verse here or there. I also did not post the whole chapter unless the chapter starts in verse 17.

Here is the same verse as translated in the King James
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Too bad you were not there to keep them from making so many translation errors. Either way you look at it the sinners being accursed certainly does not play in the new Jerusalem.

 

[Truth7t7]

Hi that idea of just quoting the relevant verses is how so many people can be led into certain doctrines. Bible study is finding the context it is written in and not just pulling a verse here or there. I also did not post the whole chapter unless the chapter starts in verse 17.

Here is the same verse as translated in the King James
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Too bad you were not there to keep them from making so many translation errors. Either way you look at it the sinners being accursed certainly does not play in the new Jerusalem.

The sinner will be accursed in the "Eternal Kingdom" "Forever"!

Revelation 14:10-11
They are gonna burn in the presence of the Angels and Jesus Christ for eternity.

Your Earthly 1000 Year Kingdom Does Not Exist In Scripture.

 

[DavidPT]

This is one of the most mistranslated verses in the Bible, and the subject of much false doctrine.

The Hebrew text begins with a negative.
Therefore, none of the things mentioned in the verse will occur in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

(KJV+) There shall beH1961 noH3808 moreH5750 thenceH4480 H8033 an infantH5764 of days,H3117 nor an old manH2205 thatH834 hath notH3808 filledH4390 (H853) his days:H3117 forH3588 the childH5288 shall dieH4191 an hundredH3967 yearsH8141 old;H1121 but the sinnerH2398 being an hundredH3967 yearsH8141 oldH1121 shall be accursed.H7043


Is you translate the Hebrew into English as, "There will not be..." you will understand the verse within the context of the passage.

.

If we apply "There will not be" to these parts----for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed---this is what we end up with.

There will not be the child that shall die an hundred years old.



There will not be the sinner being an hundred years old that shall be accursed

Look how this completely changes the meaning in this latter one. Yet the text says----but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed---and not instead---but the sinner being an hundred years old shall not be accursed

And you start off your post like such----This is one of the most mistranslated verses in the Bible. Then you turn right around and clearly prove it via your conclusions here. But not the way you were thinking and hoping though. You were obviously meaning mistranslated by others, but not by you as well. Yet it looks like to me you have some mistranslating going on yourself. This post kinda backfired on you then, except I don't expect you to actually admit it though.

 

[Choose Wisely]

I would say the same about you.

wheat harvest, barley harvest, pentecost, passover, equals the rapture?

Thats not even logic!

Oh here.........let me help you. This would be the grape harvest also known as the fall fruit harvest.

Rev 14
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

The sinner will be accursed in the "Eternal Kingdom" "Forever"!

Revelation 14:10-11
They are gonna burn in the presence of the Angels and Jesus Christ for eternity.

Your Earthly 1000 Year Kingdom Does Not Exist In Scripture.

If Jesus is going to rule with a rod of iron that would be on earth as in heaven He would not need a rod of iron as all believers are promised to be raised incorruptible. The rod of Iron is when the wolf will lie down with the lamb and when men will beat there spears into pruning hooks and their spears into plowshare and learn war no more. We likely will disagree and either very soon Ill graciously admit you were right or you after 1000 years will apologize and concede you were wrong.
Either way we are united in the gospel.

 

[Truth7t7]

If Jesus is going to rule with a rod of iron that would be on earth as in heaven He would not need a rod of iron as all believers are promised to be raised incorruptible. The rod of Iron is when the wolf will lie down with the lamb and when men will beat there spears into pruning hooks and their spears into plowshare and learn war no more. We likely will disagree and either very soon Ill graciously admit you were right or you after 1000 years will apologize and concede you were wrong.
Either way we are united in the gospel.

The wolf will lay with the lamb in the eternal kingdom.

There will be no future 1000 year kingdom on this earth.

Jesus returns in the final judgment, eternal life, eternal kingdom as clearly taught in Matthew 25:31-46

Verses 31-32 Jesus returns, the nations are gathered before the throne for judgment.

Verse 34 The eternal kingdom is presented to the righteous.

Verse 41 The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire.

Verse 46 The righteous obtain eternal life, and enter the eternal kingdom in verse 34.

Eternity Begins!

 

[LastSeven]

Hi that idea of just quoting the relevant verses is how so many people can be led into certain doctrines. Bible study is finding the context it is written in and not just pulling a verse here or there. I also did not post the whole chapter unless the chapter starts in verse 17.

Here is the same verse as translated in the King James
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Too bad you were not there to keep them from making so many translation errors. Either way you look at it the sinners being accursed certainly does not play in the new Jerusalem.

Of course context is important for understanding, but typically not so important for making a point. And if you post an entire chapter, nobody's going to read it. Your choice.

 

[Riberra]

The sinner will be accursed in the "Eternal Kingdom" "Forever"!

Revelation 14:10-11
They are gonna burn in the presence of the Angels and Jesus Christ for eternity.

Your Earthly 1000 Year Kingdom Does Not Exist In Scripture.

If the 1,000 years EARTHLY kingdom of Jesus when Jesus will rule the Nations with a Rod of Iron does not exist in Scripture as you claim ....Can you tell us why Revelation 20 have been written ?

No need to be a Bible Scholar to see that the 1,000 years will begin after that Jesus will defeat the armies assembled at Armageddon Revelation 19:20-21 [Jesus defeat the armies -the birds will eat their flesh-]-----and after -----> Revelation 20:1-6 begin ....

 

[WailingWall]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the event of the "Second Coming" and "Resurrection" of " The Dead In Christ", on "The Last Day".
Truth7t7

Yup. And lets not forget the "Day of the Lord"

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

 

[LastSeven]

Yup, and the reason it's called "the great day of the Lord" is because that is the day that will last forever. The sun will never set on that day because it is the last day.

 

[DavidPT]

Yup, and the reason it's called "the great day of the Lord" is because that is the day that will last forever. The sun will never set on that day because it is the last day.

Don't know why you might think that day would last for all eternity though?

Zephaniah 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Who could possibly think verse 15 above describes what it will be like for all eternity? Pretty much contradicts a new heavens and a new earth if what is described in verse 15 occurs throughout eternity.


The great day of the LORD is near----That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness


You instead say----The great day of the LORD is near----is because that is the day that will last forever. The sun will never set on that day because it is the last day.

Who should I believe in the case? You or the Bible?

 

[DavidPT]

Well Dave the book of life teaches there are "Two" groups of people in the world.

Those in the book of life, and those not in the book of life.

Eternal Kingdom, Eternal Fire

No In B-e-t-w-e-e-n

Let's test that theory.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


What does the text clearly indicate? Doesn't it indicate they were judged every man according to their works? Without works of some kind, one can't be present at this judgment then, right? What about infants who die as infants, or were aborted before they were born? Will they be at this judgment being judged according to their works? Which of these two groups do they fit into?

 

[Truth7t7]

If the 1,000 years EARTHLY kingdom of Jesus when Jesus will rule the Nations with a Rod of Iron does not exist in Scripture as you claim ....Can you tell us why Revelation 20 have been written ?

No need to be a Bible Scholar to see that the 1,000 years will begin after that Jesus will defeat the armies assembled at Armageddon Revelation 19:20-21 [Jesus defeat the armies -the birds will eat their flesh-]-----and after -----> Revelation 20:1-6 begin ....

I have shown you "Several Times" that revelation 20:1-6 is in the spiritual realm of the Lord, not a earthly kingdom as you claim.

Angel, heaven, devil, Satan, the souls, the dead, God, Christ.

No earthly kingdom there for the 10th time.

 

[Truth7t7]

And w

Let's test that theory.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


What does the text clearly indicate? Doesn't it indicate they were judged every man according to their works? Without works of some kind, one can't be present at this judgment then, right? What about infants who die as infants, or were aborted before they were born? Will they be at this judgment being judged according to their works? Which of these two groups do they fit into?

Dave you wiggle around verse 15, there are two groups of people,

saved/unsaved

Name in book/Name not in book

Simple!

I believe innocent infants and the unborn are written in the book, don't you

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Riberra]

I have shown you "Several Times" that revelation 20:1-6 is in the spiritual realm of the Lord, not a earthly kingdom as you claim.

Angel, heaven, devil, Satan, the souls, the dead, God, Christ.

No earthly kingdom there for the 10th time.

So you are saying that Jesus AFTER HIS COMING AT THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON [Revelation 19:20-21]will reign 1,000 years in Heaven with the SOULS of DEAD believers who have been BEHEADED because they have REFUSED to worship the Beast and refused to take his mark during the [still to come] 42 months reign of the Beast.?

The text in Revelation 20:4-6 say clearly that there will be 2 groups of DEAD....those who will be resurrected[and they lived] at that moment called the FIRST RESURRECTION ----AND ----Those who will be resurrected 1,000 years later.


Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that had been BEHEADED for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[LastSeven]

Don't know why you might think that day would last for all eternity though?

Zephaniah 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Who could possibly think verse 15 above describes what it will be like for all eternity? Pretty much contradicts a new heavens and a new earth if what is described in verse 15 occurs throughout eternity.

It's both a day of mourning (for the wicked) and a day of rejoicing (for the righteous). That trouble and distress he speaks of is only for the wicked. Obviously.

 

[Truth7t7]

So you are saying that Jesus AFTER HIS COMING AT THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON [Revelation 19:20-21]will reign 1,000 years in Heaven with the SOULS of DEAD believers who have been BEHEADED because they have REFUSED to worship the Beast and refused to take his mark during the [still to come] 42 months reign of the Beast.?

The text in Revelation 20:4-6 say clearly that there will be 2 groups of DEAD....those who will be resurrected[and they lived] at that moment called the FIRST RESURRECTION ----AND ----Those who will be resurrected 1,000 years later.


Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that had been BEHEADED for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Once again as I have shown you "Several Times"

There is one future resurrection of all the dead at the return of Jesus, both righteous and wicked, all that are in the graves "ALL" John 5:28-29

This resurrection takes place on the "Last Day" as Jesus Taught in John 6:40

Jesus returns in the final judgment, eternal life, eternal kingdom, as Jesus clearly taught in Matthew 25:31-46

There will be no 1000 year kingdom on this earth.

When Jesus returns, eternity begins.

 

[Douggg]

Of course context is important for understanding, but typically not so important for making a point. And if you post an entire chapter, nobody's going to read it. Your choice.

Last Seven, it would be wonderful if the amil posters would modified their personal information below their
avatar to say "amil" like you did. The premil could do the same if they have space.

I am pre-mil but don't have the space. TruthT7T has space for "amil" and other things.