1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Isn't A Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Don't Be Deceived!

[Truth7t7]

Assuming Premil is the correct position, which of course it is, but that's beside the point, what was satan doing before he gets bound? Was he not doing exactly what you just said, deceiving the nations to going to battle? He then gets bound so that he can no longer deceive the nations to go to battle again until after he is loosed. In your scenerio you simply have him bound so that he can't deceive the nations to go to battle. In the Premil scenerio he is bound because that's exactly what he was doing that led to him getting bound, thus the binding preventing him from doing this yet again until he is loosed.

To further show what I'm trying to get at here, consider the following analogy.

Joe drives around drunk and gets in one accident after another, hurting others in the process. Joe then is eventually detained and locked up for several years. What will this prevent him from doing during that time? Would it not prevent him from doing what got him locked up in the first place?

Joe then is released after several years and goes back to doing exactly what he did before, that got him locked up the first time. But this time around it results in Joe losing his life in one of these accidents. Not a perfect analogy of course, but it shows that satan is bound to prevent him from doing what he was doing that lead to him getting bound. In this case, that would be that he was deceiving the nations and causing them to go to battle. We know that has to be why he was initially bound, based on what he does once he is loosed. Not to mention, exactly what Premil shows him doing prior to him getting bound.

Satan is currently "Sealed" from performing Revelation 16:12-17, also seen in parallel in Revelation 20:7-9

Can satan currently perform this, 100% No!

The seal upon satan are the seals in the book of Revelation, can satan expedite the vials being poured to dry up the river, and cast "Devils/Demons" to the kings of the earth, as seen in Revelation 16:12-17 100% No!

Only Jesus Christ Can Break/Loose all seals, Revelation 5:1-5

The deception Satan is bound and sealed from in Revelation 20:1-3 is "Deceiving The Nations To Battle"As clearly explained in Revelation 20:7-8 & Revelation 16:12-17 "Simple"

Dave you got Joe the drunk driver as your explanation, as God's clear truth is right before your face?

 

[Douggg]

Dr. Sam Storms was taught Dispensational Futurism while he was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary, but rejected the doctrine when he could not get it to match up with his Bible.

Quite a few of us here have done something similar.

However, a few of us cannot let go of it...

.

What I don't like about his eschatology approach and commentary is that the takes Revelation and metaphorically smudges the words on the pages. Useless.

I try to clear the picture and he tries to blur it.

 

[BABerean2]

What I don't like about his eschatology approach and commentary is that the takes Revelation and metaphorically smudges the words on the pages. Useless.

I try to clear the picture and he tries to blur it.

Yes, his viewpoint does destroy yours.

The Book of Revelation is a book of symbols.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Otherwise, you have above two men made of wood and metal.

I am now listening to his whole sermon series on the Book of Revelation. It started last year at Bridgeway Church, in Oklahoma. So far, it has been excellent.

Here is the first one in the series for those who are interested.

Bridgeway Church: Oklahoma City, OK


.

 

[Truth7t7]

You can't stop at candle sticks and olive trees in your symbolic allegory?

How do we symbolize the seven questions below?

1.We have a street and city where Jesus was crucified?

2.Bodies laying in a street?

3.People seeing dead bodies?

4. People that were tormented?

5. People celebrating, exchanging gifts?

6. People watching dead bodies being raised?

7. Bodies standing on their feet?

Revelation 11:4-12
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Yes, his viewpoint does destroy yours.

The Book of Revelation is a book of symbols.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Otherwise, you have above two men made of wood and metal.

I am now listening to his whole sermon series on the Book of Revelation. It started last year at Bridgeway Church, in Oklahoma. So far, it has been excellent.

Here is the first one in the series for those who are interested.

Bridgeway Church: Oklahoma City, OK


.

 

[JacksBratt]

Gods words dictate truth!

Your pre-trib rapture and 1000 year kingdom on this earth are not found in Gods words.

Thats A Fact!

Just because "you" keep stating that it "is a fact" means nothing.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Wee agree God's word is truth and I can make a strong scriptural case that Revelation was not fulfilled in 70AD and that the covenants with Israel have not been transferred to the church and that Christ will sit on the throne of David and be king over all the earth at the 2nd coming. These ideas come directly from scripture and use tow rules of interpretation from scripture to determine to take them literally. In Exodus the law of the prophets states that a prophet must be 100% right or he has spoken presumptuously and the false prophet should be stoned to death. Then Peter say no prophecy is of any private interpretation or prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[fn] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

I would say with these rules coming from scripture it is pretty tough to say that the two witnesses were around in 70AD . The abomination of desolation if it happened in 70AD what about the promise that from that time Jerusalem the holy city would be trodden under the foot of the Gentiles for forty-two months. Nothing happened 42 months later. The futurist would expect to see Israel become a nation again at a time when the world is moving towards a one world government and a one world monetary system with a cashless society. The Jews would have to be hated by the rest of the nations and the epicenter for geo political turmoil with the issue of the temple mount being a hot topic. The Jews would have to prepare for the return of the sacrifice because it would be necessary for the abomination of desolation to occur in. If you look at the passage in Rev 11 the beast also needs to survive a mortal wound to his head just prior to committing this act and then enforce the mark of the beast and image of the beast too.
If we look at Israel now it is just as the futurist would expect with the Temple Institute having prepared everything necessary to resume the sacrifices and at the time one world government is the stated goal along with a one world monetary system and plans for a global cashless society. Furthermore the tension on the Mount has never been greater. The Moslem's are expecting the coming of the 12th Iman or Mahdi. The new ager's the coming of Maitreya, the Vatican is expecting visitors from another planet. Many Christians know Jesus is supposed to come again too. I maintain we are seeing the table set for the fulfillment of these things according to the two rules I made out. The world will unite under a being who can be all these things to all these people who are in expectation to unite the planet promising peace and unity.
If Rev occurred in 70 AD Nero would have had to be the man of sin. ! Thes 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[fn] who now restrains will do so until He[fn] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
What sings and lying wonders did Nero do? This lawless one is supposed to be destroyed at the brightness of Jesus coming. I don't remember that happening either. If you go to Zech 14 we see the day the LORD is proclaimed king over all the earth. Note John wrote in Rev of things to come and the angels proclaim in Ch 11 the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of the LORD and hHis Christ and He shall reign forever. Zech 14 describes this day to a T.
Look at this chronology in Zech 14

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
(this occurs when all the nations battle against jerusalem and the city is taken)
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You
And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The LORD is one,”[fn]
And His name one.
It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
(when the LORD comes to fight against all these nations His feet will stand on the MT of Olives and it will split in two and create a large valley and a new river will flow year round and the declaration Here in Ch 9 is The LORD shall be king over all the earth. The mt of Olives has not split, that river has not formed. This is future as Psalm 110 says the LORD said to my Lord sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. The enemies of the cross have never been put down and Jesus is still at the right hand for this day is future. Also note that the LORD comes with His saints. And in that day it is said the LORD is one. This is Jesus coming and now they say The LORD is one this is the day Israel understands Jesus is God just as the Father is God. Lastly this day is so different that it is a day with no light then at night it is light.)

Zech 14 continues
The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

(note Jerusalem form this point on shall be safely inhabited and how graphis is the death of the armies of the nations)
6 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
( you see here a clear continuation of life on earth after the LORD destroys these armies with the brightness of His coming and the nations must now come and keep the feast of Tabernacles or they get no rain. Even Egypt is singled out for this and no doubt in the Millennium Egypt will be crying out in a great drought for not having come up and this scripture will be used then.)

The two rules I cited I have kept to. I hold the prophet to mean what he says and it must be 100%. I have not made any private interpretation upon the text and expect it to be fulfilled right down to the letter.

The throne of David is promised to Jesus.
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

In John Zacharias mouth was loosed and he said of Jesus that he would deliver Israel from their enemies and from that point on they would worship and serve the LORD without fear all the days of their lives. When Jesus comes as seen in Zech 14 that is the promised deliverance and the time when Jesus in king over all the earth and this kingdom will not end as it says in Dan that the rest of the beast have lost their dominion, they never get it back but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. This is when the beast and false prophet are cast into the fire and Satan is bound for 1000 years.

Here is the promise in LUKE

67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

So we agree scripture is truth and you accuse me of being a false teacher by believing the scripture to say exactly what they say. I remember a verse about not being led astray be every wind of doctrine. Which way is the wind blowing?

 

[LastSeven]

You're dishonest. I'm done with you.

So rude.

 

[LastSeven]

Just because "you" keep stating that it "is a fact" means nothing.

While technically that's true, it's just a matter of reading your Bible to confirm it.

 

[LastSeven]

Wee agree God's word is truth and I can make a strong scriptural case that Revelation was not fulfilled in 70AD and that the covenants with Israel have not been transferred to the church and that Christ will sit on the throne of David and be king over all the earth at the 2nd coming. These ideas come directly from scripture and use tow rules of interpretation from scripture to determine to take them literally. In Exodus the law of the prophets states that a prophet must be 100% right or he has spoken presumptuously and the false prophet should be stoned to death. Then Peter say no prophecy is of any private interpretation or prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[fn] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

I would say with these rules coming from scripture it is pretty tough to say that the two witnesses were around in 70AD . The abomination of desolation if it happened in 70AD what about the promise that from that time Jerusalem the holy city would be trodden under the foot of the Gentiles for forty-two months. Nothing happened 42 months later. The futurist would expect to see Israel become a nation again at a time when the world is moving towards a one world government and a one world monetary system with a cashless society. The Jews would have to be hated by the rest of the nations and the epicenter for geo political turmoil with the issue of the temple mount being a hot topic. The Jews would have to prepare for the return of the sacrifice because it would be necessary for the abomination of desolation to occur in. If you look at the passage in Rev 11 the beast also needs to survive a mortal wound to his head just prior to committing this act and then enforce the mark of the beast and image of the beast too.
If we look at Israel now it is just as the futurist would expect with the Temple Institute having prepared everything necessary to resume the sacrifices and at the time one world government is the stated goal along with a one world monetary system and plans for a global cashless society. Furthermore the tension on the Mount has never been greater. The Moslem's are expecting the coming of the 12th Iman or Mahdi. The new ager's the coming of Maitreya, the Vatican is expecting visitors from another planet. Many Christians know Jesus is supposed to come again too. I maintain we are seeing the table set for the fulfillment of these things according to the two rules I made out. The world will unite under a being who can be all these things to all these people who are in expectation to unite the planet promising peace and unity.
If Rev occurred in 70 AD Nero would have had to be the man of sin. ! Thes 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[fn] who now restrains will do so until He[fn] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
What sings and lying wonders did Nero do? This lawless one is supposed to be destroyed at the brightness of Jesus coming. I don't remember that happening either. If you go to Zech 14 we see the day the LORD is proclaimed king over all the earth. Note John wrote in Rev of things to come and the angels proclaim in Ch 11 the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of the LORD and hHis Christ and He shall reign forever. Zech 14 describes this day to a T.
Look at this chronology in Zech 14

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
(this occurs when all the nations battle against jerusalem and the city is taken)
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You
And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The LORD is one,”[fn]
And His name one.
It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
(when the LORD comes to fight against all these nations His feet will stand on the MT of Olives and it will split in two and create a large valley and a new river will flow year round and the declaration Here in Ch 9 is The LORD shall be king over all the earth. The mt of Olives has not split, that river has not formed. This is future as Psalm 110 says the LORD said to my Lord sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. The enemies of the cross have never been put down and Jesus is still at the right hand for this day is future. Also note that the LORD comes with His saints. And in that day it is said the LORD is one. This is Jesus coming and now they say The LORD is one this is the day Israel understands Jesus is God just as the Father is God. Lastly this day is so different that it is a day with no light then at night it is light.)

Zech 14 continues
The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

(note Jerusalem form this point on shall be safely inhabited and how graphis is the death of the armies of the nations)
6 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
( you see here a clear continuation of life on earth after the LORD destroys these armies with the brightness of His coming and the nations must now come and keep the feast of Tabernacles or they get no rain. Even Egypt is singled out for this and no doubt in the Millennium Egypt will be crying out in a great drought for not having come up and this scripture will be used then.)

The two rules I cited I have kept to. I hold the prophet to mean what he says and it must be 100%. I have not made any private interpretation upon the text and expect it to be fulfilled right down to the letter.

The throne of David is promised to Jesus.
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

In John Zacharias mouth was loosed and he said of Jesus that he would deliver Israel from their enemies and from that point on they would worship and serve the LORD without fear all the days of their lives. When Jesus comes as seen in Zech 14 that is the promised deliverance and the time when Jesus in king over all the earth and this kingdom will not end as it says in Dan that the rest of the beast have lost their dominion, they never get it back but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. This is when the beast and false prophet are cast into the fire and Satan is bound for 1000 years.

Here is the promise in LUKE

67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

So we agree scripture is truth and you accuse me of being a false teacher by believing the scripture to say exactly what they say. I remember a verse about not being led astray be every wind of doctrine. Which way is the wind blowing?

Too many words.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Too many words.

This subject could fill several volumes in book form so I suggest a couple pages of mostly scripture is not too many words but in a world of people making up their minds on tweet sized bites it might be too many for some.

 

[Truth7t7]

Wee agree God's word is truth and I can make a strong scriptural case that Revelation was not fulfilled in 70AD and that the covenants with Israel have not been transferred to the church and that Christ will sit on the throne of David and be king over all the earth at the 2nd coming. These ideas come directly from scripture and use tow rules of interpretation from scripture to determine to take them literally. In Exodus the law of the prophets states that a prophet must be 100% right or he has spoken presumptuously and the false prophet should be stoned to death. Then Peter say no prophecy is of any private interpretation or prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[fn] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

I would say with these rules coming from scripture it is pretty tough to say that the two witnesses were around in 70AD . The abomination of desolation if it happened in 70AD what about the promise that from that time Jerusalem the holy city would be trodden under the foot of the Gentiles for forty-two months. Nothing happened 42 months later. The futurist would expect to see Israel become a nation again at a time when the world is moving towards a one world government and a one world monetary system with a cashless society. The Jews would have to be hated by the rest of the nations and the epicenter for geo political turmoil with the issue of the temple mount being a hot topic. The Jews would have to prepare for the return of the sacrifice because it would be necessary for the abomination of desolation to occur in. If you look at the passage in Rev 11 the beast also needs to survive a mortal wound to his head just prior to committing this act and then enforce the mark of the beast and image of the beast too.
If we look at Israel now it is just as the futurist would expect with the Temple Institute having prepared everything necessary to resume the sacrifices and at the time one world government is the stated goal along with a one world monetary system and plans for a global cashless society. Furthermore the tension on the Mount has never been greater. The Moslem's are expecting the coming of the 12th Iman or Mahdi. The new ager's the coming of Maitreya, the Vatican is expecting visitors from another planet. Many Christians know Jesus is supposed to come again too. I maintain we are seeing the table set for the fulfillment of these things according to the two rules I made out. The world will unite under a being who can be all these things to all these people who are in expectation to unite the planet promising peace and unity.
If Rev occurred in 70 AD Nero would have had to be the man of sin. ! Thes 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[fn] who now restrains will do so until He[fn] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
What sings and lying wonders did Nero do? This lawless one is supposed to be destroyed at the brightness of Jesus coming. I don't remember that happening either. If you go to Zech 14 we see the day the LORD is proclaimed king over all the earth. Note John wrote in Rev of things to come and the angels proclaim in Ch 11 the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of the LORD and hHis Christ and He shall reign forever. Zech 14 describes this day to a T.
Look at this chronology in Zech 14

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
(this occurs when all the nations battle against jerusalem and the city is taken)
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You
And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The LORD is one,”[fn]
And His name one.
It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
(when the LORD comes to fight against all these nations His feet will stand on the MT of Olives and it will split in two and create a large valley and a new river will flow year round and the declaration Here in Ch 9 is The LORD shall be king over all the earth. The mt of Olives has not split, that river has not formed. This is future as Psalm 110 says the LORD said to my Lord sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. The enemies of the cross have never been put down and Jesus is still at the right hand for this day is future. Also note that the LORD comes with His saints. And in that day it is said the LORD is one. This is Jesus coming and now they say The LORD is one this is the day Israel understands Jesus is God just as the Father is God. Lastly this day is so different that it is a day with no light then at night it is light.)

Zech 14 continues
The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

(note Jerusalem form this point on shall be safely inhabited and how graphis is the death of the armies of the nations)
6 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
( you see here a clear continuation of life on earth after the LORD destroys these armies with the brightness of His coming and the nations must now come and keep the feast of Tabernacles or they get no rain. Even Egypt is singled out for this and no doubt in the Millennium Egypt will be crying out in a great drought for not having come up and this scripture will be used then.)

The two rules I cited I have kept to. I hold the prophet to mean what he says and it must be 100%. I have not made any private interpretation upon the text and expect it to be fulfilled right down to the letter.

The throne of David is promised to Jesus.
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

In John Zacharias mouth was loosed and he said of Jesus that he would deliver Israel from their enemies and from that point on they would worship and serve the LORD without fear all the days of their lives. When Jesus comes as seen in Zech 14 that is the promised deliverance and the time when Jesus in king over all the earth and this kingdom will not end as it says in Dan that the rest of the beast have lost their dominion, they never get it back but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. This is when the beast and false prophet are cast into the fire and Satan is bound for 1000 years.

Here is the promise in LUKE

67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

So we agree scripture is truth and you accuse me of being a false teacher by believing the scripture to say exactly what they say. I remember a verse about not being led astray be every wind of doctrine. Which way is the wind blowing?

You can't show in scripture, that Jesus returns to earth to start a 1000 year kingdom, hanging out with mortal humans dying around him.

Matthew 24:23-27

Jesus warned the believer against this false teaching, as he will not be found on earth.

"Believe It Not"!

 

[Truth7t7]

Wee agree God's word is truth and I can make a strong scriptural case that Revelation was not fulfilled in 70AD and that the covenants with Israel have not been transferred to the church and that Christ will sit on the throne of David and be king over all the earth at the 2nd coming. These ideas come directly from scripture and use tow rules of interpretation from scripture to determine to take them literally. In Exodus the law of the prophets states that a prophet must be 100% right or he has spoken presumptuously and the false prophet should be stoned to death. Then Peter say no prophecy is of any private interpretation or prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[fn] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

I would say with these rules coming from scripture it is pretty tough to say that the two witnesses were around in 70AD . The abomination of desolation if it happened in 70AD what about the promise that from that time Jerusalem the holy city would be trodden under the foot of the Gentiles for forty-two months. Nothing happened 42 months later. The futurist would expect to see Israel become a nation again at a time when the world is moving towards a one world government and a one world monetary system with a cashless society. The Jews would have to be hated by the rest of the nations and the epicenter for geo political turmoil with the issue of the temple mount being a hot topic. The Jews would have to prepare for the return of the sacrifice because it would be necessary for the abomination of desolation to occur in. If you look at the passage in Rev 11 the beast also needs to survive a mortal wound to his head just prior to committing this act and then enforce the mark of the beast and image of the beast too.
If we look at Israel now it is just as the futurist would expect with the Temple Institute having prepared everything necessary to resume the sacrifices and at the time one world government is the stated goal along with a one world monetary system and plans for a global cashless society. Furthermore the tension on the Mount has never been greater. The Moslem's are expecting the coming of the 12th Iman or Mahdi. The new ager's the coming of Maitreya, the Vatican is expecting visitors from another planet. Many Christians know Jesus is supposed to come again too. I maintain we are seeing the table set for the fulfillment of these things according to the two rules I made out. The world will unite under a being who can be all these things to all these people who are in expectation to unite the planet promising peace and unity.
If Rev occurred in 70 AD Nero would have had to be the man of sin. ! Thes 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[fn] who now restrains will do so until He[fn] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
What sings and lying wonders did Nero do? This lawless one is supposed to be destroyed at the brightness of Jesus coming. I don't remember that happening either. If you go to Zech 14 we see the day the LORD is proclaimed king over all the earth. Note John wrote in Rev of things to come and the angels proclaim in Ch 11 the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of the LORD and hHis Christ and He shall reign forever. Zech 14 describes this day to a T.
Look at this chronology in Zech 14

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
(this occurs when all the nations battle against jerusalem and the city is taken)
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You
And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The LORD is one,”[fn]
And His name one.
It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
(when the LORD comes to fight against all these nations His feet will stand on the MT of Olives and it will split in two and create a large valley and a new river will flow year round and the declaration Here in Ch 9 is The LORD shall be king over all the earth. The mt of Olives has not split, that river has not formed. This is future as Psalm 110 says the LORD said to my Lord sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. The enemies of the cross have never been put down and Jesus is still at the right hand for this day is future. Also note that the LORD comes with His saints. And in that day it is said the LORD is one. This is Jesus coming and now they say The LORD is one this is the day Israel understands Jesus is God just as the Father is God. Lastly this day is so different that it is a day with no light then at night it is light.)

Zech 14 continues
The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

(note Jerusalem form this point on shall be safely inhabited and how graphis is the death of the armies of the nations)
6 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
( you see here a clear continuation of life on earth after the LORD destroys these armies with the brightness of His coming and the nations must now come and keep the feast of Tabernacles or they get no rain. Even Egypt is singled out for this and no doubt in the Millennium Egypt will be crying out in a great drought for not having come up and this scripture will be used then.)

The two rules I cited I have kept to. I hold the prophet to mean what he says and it must be 100%. I have not made any private interpretation upon the text and expect it to be fulfilled right down to the letter.

The throne of David is promised to Jesus.
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

In John Zacharias mouth was loosed and he said of Jesus that he would deliver Israel from their enemies and from that point on they would worship and serve the LORD without fear all the days of their lives. When Jesus comes as seen in Zech 14 that is the promised deliverance and the time when Jesus in king over all the earth and this kingdom will not end as it says in Dan that the rest of the beast have lost their dominion, they never get it back but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. This is when the beast and false prophet are cast into the fire and Satan is bound for 1000 years.

Here is the promise in LUKE

67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

So we agree scripture is truth and you accuse me of being a false teacher by believing the scripture to say exactly what they say. I remember a verse about not being led astray be every wind of doctrine. Which way is the wind blowing?

Brian get off the "Novel" sized responses, nobody will read them.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Brian get off the "Novel" sized responses, nobody will read them.

LOL when do novels come in 3 pages. You say no proof for the millennium and are unwilling to read a few pages so to lower the scope of the debate to a few sentences is not good. Here is a verse prophesied in Isaiah 65.
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD,
And their offspring with them.
24 “It shall come to pass
That before they call, I will answer;
And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,”
Says the LORD.

Note there is still death so this is not in the New Jerusalem as the child who dies will be 100. It seems like the life spans go back to pre flood levels at some time. Note also that Jerusalem is central to this prophecy. i suppose this is already at your limit so the other ideas relevant will have to wait. You know ideas that develop a cohesive argument which takes time and structure.

 

[LastSeven]

Try to focus. Isaiah 65 for example, no need to post the entire chapter. Just post the verses relevant to your point.

 

[DavidPT]

Gods words dictate truth!

Your pre-trib rapture and 1000 year kingdom on this earth are not found in Gods words.

Thats A Fact!

Let me make some needed corrections to what you said above.
--------------------
Gods words dictate truth!

Your pre-trib rapture is not found in Gods words.

Thats A Fact!
----------------------

Now what you said is a fact and no longer a contradiction instead.

 

[DavidPT]

Brian get off the "Novel" sized responses, nobody will read them.

At least his replies don't appear to be scripted like many of yours and a lot of other Amils around here at times. Not only is he able to post Scriptures he's able to give commentary on what he posts.

 

[Truth7t7]

LOL when do novels come in 3 pages. You say no proof for the millennium and are unwilling to read a few pages so to lower the scope of the debate to a few sentences is not good. Here is a verse prophesied in Isaiah 65.
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD,
And their offspring with them.
24 “It shall come to pass
That before they call, I will answer;
And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,”
Says the LORD.

Note there is still death so this is not in the New Jerusalem as the child who dies will be 100. It seems like the life spans go back to pre flood levels at some time. Note also that Jerusalem is central to this prophecy. i suppose this is already at your limit so the other ideas relevant will have to wait. You know ideas that develop a cohesive argument which takes time and structure.

Child dying a hundred years old, is symbolic of "Eternal"

If it stated a child dies at a Ziillion years old, you would believe this meant eternal.

Isaiah 65:17-19 is exactly Revelation 21:1-5

Isaiah 65 is the eternal kingdom.

 

[Truth7t7]

At least his replies don't appear To be scripted like many of yours and a lot of other Amils around here at times. Not only is he able to post Scriptures he's able to give commentary on what he posts.

Well Dave the book of life teaches there are "Two" groups of people in the world.

Those in the book of life, and those not in the book of life.

Eternal Kingdom, Eternal Fire

No In B-e-t-w-e-e-n

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Child dying a hundred years old, is symbolic of "Eternal"

If it stated a child dies at a Ziillion years old, you would believe this meant eternal.

Isaiah 65:17-19 is exactly Revelation 21:1-5

Isaiah 65 is the eternal kingdom.

not likely it means a zillion but really does mean 100 as in heaven there is no death and no sin. There is still sinners in Isaiah 65. I dont think there will be sin in heaven that is why I post most of the chapter so you can see the context. You seem to miss this verse
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. How is this in the eternal kingdom of heaven. The life spans were greatly reduced after the fall and down to 70 years as the norm. if the curse is reversed at the 2nd coming and close to 1000 year life spans are normal at 100 you would still be relatively a child.

 

[BABerean2]

But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. How is this in the eternal kingdom of heaven.

This is one of the most mistranslated verses in the Bible, and the subject of much false doctrine.

The Hebrew text begins with a negative.
Therefore, none of the things mentioned in the verse will occur in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

(KJV+) There shall beH1961 noH3808 moreH5750 thenceH4480 H8033 an infantH5764 of days,H3117 nor an old manH2205 thatH834 hath notH3808 filledH4390 (H853) his days:H3117 forH3588 the childH5288 shall dieH4191 an hundredH3967 yearsH8141 old;H1121 but the sinnerH2398 being an hundredH3967 yearsH8141 oldH1121 shall be accursed.H7043


Is you translate the Hebrew into English as, "There will not be..." you will understand the verse within the context of the passage.

.