1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Isn't A Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Don't Be Deceived!

Marvin Knox

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Please respond by quoting my post here..... just say... "Yes, I changed my view" or "NOPE".
Nope - I haven't changed my view.

Truth 1x7 and some others like him have a personal agenda against the idea that the Lord's promises concerning believers not being destined for His wrath and Him reigning on earth for 1000 years are to be trusted.

I have observed and commented on that misguided agenda for some time now and I have not changed, and will not change my mind, and doubted the promises of God.:)

P.S. - I have also observed that most, but by no means all, of these argumentative threads are started by the anti rapture crowd and not by those trying to push the idea of a rapture.
 
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Douggg

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Satan doesn't want an end time army of saints ready to endure persecution; he wants a disorganized group who isn't ready to face persecution, believing strongly they will be spared the worst. This is setting the church up for a falling away when hard times come. This is exactly what happened in China when it was first evangelized; the Chinese were taught they wouldn't have to face persecution so when persecution did come, many fell away.
But that will not be the reason for the falling away in 2Thessalonians2:3. The falling away in 2Thessalonians2:3 will because it will appear to many Christians, the person the Jews will embrace as their messiah King of Israel following Gog/Magog will be so convincing that the Jews were right all along, that many in Christianity will quit believing in Jesus and be caught up in the messiah fever following Gog/Magog.

That person is coming for an absolute certainty. And so is the falling away that goes with. It will not be because of persecution. It will be by deception.

The Chinese example you gave for your rationale was because of persecution.
 
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Quasar92

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I'll go first:

NOPE, I have not changed my view on the reality of and timing of the Rapture by viewing, reading and participating in any of the many, many, many threads that have argued this ad nauseam.



The Second Coming of Jesus WITH HIS CHURCH from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7-8, while the tribulation is taking place on earth. Which makes the pre-trib teachings in the Bible abundantly clear for all serious Christians who have done their homework.

Mt..24:31 "And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds [Israel], from one end of heaven to the other [Church]." [Parenthesis mine}

Rev.19:11 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

How did the elect get into heaven?


Scriptural verification for the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

Jn.14:2 "My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

Jn.14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
1 Thess.4:14 "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.

2 Thess.2:3 "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or "to depart." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed in verse 7:

"For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.


Quasar92
 
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JacksBratt

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The area now known as "The Temple Mount" is the remains of Roman Fort Antonia, which was built to house the thousands of Roman soldiers needed to police the city of Jerusalem during the time of Christ.

Recent underground excavations by well known Israeli archeologist Eli Shukron at the base of the area now known as "The Wailing Wall", which is made up of stones stacked one upon another (see Matthew 24:1-3), revealed a Roman coin minted after Herod's temple was completed.

Therefore it cannot be a part of the ancient Jewish temple.


See the link below.

The Temple Mount and Fort Antonia
I agree.

The area for the Temple is to the south of the Wailing Wall. Archaeologists have found it and determined it through what they found in conjunction with ancient writings, including the Bible.

It is now up to the orthodox Jews to accept it.
 
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JacksBratt

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The Second Coming of Jesus WITH HIS CHURCH from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.10:7-8, while the tribulation is taking place on earth. Which makes the pre-trib teachings in the Bible abundantly clear for all serious Christians who have done their homework.

Mt..24:31 "And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds [Israel], from one end of heaven to the other [Church]." [Parenthesis mine}

Rev.19:11 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

How did the elect get into heaven?


Scriptural verification for the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

Jn.14:2 "My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

Jn.14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
1 Thess.4:14 "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.

2 Thess.2:3 "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or "to depart." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed in verse 7:

"For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.


Quasar92
I agree with you.... totally.

My point was that these threads are nothing but regurgitated past arguments and, at the very most, pathetic application and presentations of the commentaries of those who are much more educated and credible in this debate, for both sides.


These threads, as Marvin Knox has stated, usually started by someone who is non pre trib.

I place them in the same category as threads to do with "The perpetual virginity of Mary", "Purgatory", "the emblems of the last supper actually becoming Christ vs only being an emblem",

And...other posts that do nothing in any way to change the views of the participants. They only cultivate argumentative behavior.
 
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thesunisout

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But that will not be the reason for the falling away in 2Thessalonians2:3. The falling away in 2Thessalonians2:3 will because it will appear to many Christians, the person the Jews will embrace as their messiah King of Israel following Gog/Magog will be so convincing that the Jews were right all along, that many in Christianity will quit believing in Jesus and be caught up in the messiah fever following Gog/Magog.

That person is coming for an absolute certainty. And so is the falling away that goes with. It will not be because of persecution. It will be by deception.

The Chinese example you gave for your rationale was because of persecution.

Well, there is another scripture that talks about a falling away which gives us more details:

Matthew 24:9-14

Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Notice the connection between verse 9 and 10. "At that time"..meaning, that Jesus is connecting the falling away to persecution. Something is going to happen which will cause all nations to hate and persecute Christians. I'm thinking that the Antichrist makes that happen some how.

In regards to what you're saying, I agree that Christians will fall away because the Jews embrace another Messiah as Jesus predicted they would in John 5:43. However, that happens before the middle of the tribulation. It's in the middle of the tribulation when the abomination of desolation happens and the Antichrist causes the sacrifices to cease and demands to be worshiped as God that the Jews realize their mistake. This is what I believe Paul is referring to in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. That is when I believe Zechariah 12:10 is fulfilled.
 
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BABerean2

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Notice the connection between verse 9 and 10. "At that time"..meaning, that Jesus is connecting the falling away to persecution. Something is going to happen which will cause all nations to hate and persecute Christians. I'm thinking that the Antichrist makes that happen some how.


Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:


Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.


Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5  Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 

Luk 21:6  "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 

(Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )





Luk 21:7  So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" 

(Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

( Mar 13:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 

Mar 13:4  "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?") 





Luk 21:8  And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them. 

(Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )



Luk 21:9  But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.) 



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



Luk 21:10  Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



Luk 21:11  And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



Luk 21:12  But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:9  "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13  But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 

Luk 21:14  Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 

Luk 21:15  for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 

Luk 21:16  You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 

Luk 21:17  And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:10  And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )



Luk 21:18  But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 

Luk 21:19  By your patience possess your souls. 

(Mat 24:13  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.) 



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 

(Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 



Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

(Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.) 



Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 

Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 

(Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! )



Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 

(Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 



Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

(Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.) 



Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

(Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.




The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same reference to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse in each Gospel.


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Brian Mcnamee

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1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the event of the "Second Coming" and "Resurrection" of " The Dead In Christ", on "The Last Day".

Is there a resurrection of "The Dead In Christ" seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

100% "YES"!

When does the resurrection of "The Dead In Christ" take place?

"On The Last Day", As Jesus Christ Clearly Taught In John 6:40, John 11:23-24.

"I Will Raise Him Up At The Last Day"


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 isn't a Pre-Trib Rapture, its "The Last Day", with no days of human existence beyond this.

Don't Be Deceived By The Ole Bait And Switch Trick.

Jesus Christ Is Lord

Truth7t7
There can be more than one last day as the last day of the week, the last day of the month and the last day of the year are all last days of different sequences. Many who deny the rapture also deny the 1000 year reign of Jesus from earth. Jesus said it would be like the days of Noah and the days of Lot and we see there was a last day before the event transpired. This passage talks about a day when the dead in Christ are raised and those alive at this time meet Him in the air. We see in Rev 20 those beheaded in the tribulation are promised to live again and reign with Jesus 1000 years. In Rev 5 they sing a song that they too should rule and reign with Jesus upon the earth. In Jude we see Enoch quoted saying he saw the LORD coming with thousands of His saints. In Zech 14 we see the very day Jesus returns described in detail. As this chapter shows Jerusalem being overrun. It says the LORD will fight and he comes with His saints. It says on this specific day that the MT of Olives will split in two and a new river will flow year round and in that day the LORD will be king over all the earth. It says it is a day that at night it will be daylight and the LORD will melt his enemies and it shows a continuation on earth after this day the kingdom comes to earth as from that point on the nations must come to keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain.

In Rev 20 it shows Satan is bound for 1000 years and the nations are no more deceived from that time on until he is loosed. The 2nd coming is at the battle of Armageddon when Satan is released he rallies a force and surrounds Jerusalem and then fire comes down and destroys him That is the last day then the great white throne judgment and then the new heaven and earth come down. I believe the coming of the LORD to meet the saints in the air is called a blessed hope that is a source we are supposed to encourage one another with. If there is no rapture and the 2nd coming and rapture are mid or post trib is does not void the timeline of events leading to the 2nd coming and millennium.
 
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Douggg

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Well, there is another scripture that talks about a falling away which gives us more details:

Matthew 24:9-14

Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Notice the connection between verse 9 and 10. "At that time"..meaning, that Jesus is connecting the falling away to persecution. Something is going to happen which will cause all nations to hate and persecute Christians. I'm thinking that the Antichrist makes that happen some how.

In regards to what you're saying, I agree that Christians will fall away because the Jews embrace another Messiah as Jesus predicted they would in John 5:43. However, that happens before the middle of the tribulation. It's in the middle of the tribulation when the abomination of desolation happens and the Antichrist causes the sacrifices to cease and demands to be worshiped as God that the Jews realize their mistake. This is what I believe Paul is referring to in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. That is when I believe Zechariah 12:10 is fulfilled.

The problem with your argument is 2thessalonians2:3 falling away happens before the person reveals his evil nature in 2thessalonians2:4, and the persecution that goes along with it. The falling away in 2thessalonians2:3 will be during a time the world will be saying peace and safety. It will take place during most of the first half of the seven years.


If a person were to put the verses you cited "at that time" as pertaining to the end times, the persecution on worldwide massive persecution of the saints would be after the abomination of desolation is setup to be worshiped - which will not be until the middle of the 7 years and forward.

And would also have to be after the Antichrist commits the act in 2thessalonians2:4 revealing that he was not the promised great King of Israel, that the Jews will first have thought.

____________________________________________________________

A quick review of the sequence of the events:

Confirming of the covenant for 7 years, by the perceived messiah King of Israel,
The falling away in Christianity begins,
The person commits the transgression of desolation in 2thessalonians2:4, revealing himself as the man of sin,
God has the person killed and in disdain for him brings him back to life,
As the beast, he begins persecuting anyone that doesn't worship or the image made of him,
As the great tribulation begins - which if a person were to put Matthew 24:9-14 in the end times, that is where it would fit - till the end.
 
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DavidPT

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20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.


You guys realise that our chambers are not in this world because we are taken out of this world right ?


There are no doors in heaven needing to be shut. Can't you see that the text states this---enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee?

It doesn't say enter into His chambers, and shut His doors, it says thy chambers, thy doors. Obviously this is not meaning in a literal sense then.
 
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Truth7t7

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"Scripture Explicitly States"

Jesus returns in the final judgment, eternal life, eternal kingdom.

"Eternity Begins"

Matthew 25:31-46

Verse 31-32 Jesus returns with the angels, the nations are gathered before the throne for judgment.

Verse 34 The eternal kingdom is presented to the righteous

Verse 42 The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire.

Verse 46 The righteous obtain eternal life, and enter the eternal kingdom in verse 34.

"Eternity Begins"

The will be no 1000 year kingdom on this earth at the return of Jesus Christ.

Marv Do The Righteous Obtain Eternal Life, Are The Wicked Judged To The Lake Of Fire?

100% "YES"!

The Final Judgment Takes Place Here, Can't You See This Basic Scriptural Truth?

Jesus Christ Is Lord

Truth7t7
He assumes that the scriptures are not deceiving us when they tell us that very thing.

He also assumes that the promises given to Israel in the O.T. will be honored by God in the future as He clearly told us.

He assumes that the Lord has not destined us to His wrath such as d
He displays in the tribulation.

Millions of us assume the same things.
 
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Truth7t7

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2 Thessalonians 2:3

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

Paul warns us there will be a deception about the day of the Lord, and that is exactly what we are seeing today. There is not a single scripture which clearly teaches the pre-trib rapture; it is cobbled together from a misinterpretation of a few different scriptures. It is also invoked to fill in the gaps where our understanding is lacking in certain elements of the tribulation times. Where ever there is a lack of light on a certain element of the tribulation someone finds a way to insert the pre-trib rapture into it. All this does is impede our understanding and preparation for what these times will be like.

Satan doesn't want an end time army of saints ready to endure persecution; he wants a disorganized group who isn't ready to face persecution, believing strongly they will be spared the worst. This is setting the church up for a falling away when hard times come. This is exactly what happened in China when it was first evangelized; the Chinese were taught they wouldn't have to face persecution so when persecution did come, many fell away.
I agree, however the future tribulation will not be as dispensationalism claims it will be?

We have had the propaganda movies of the 70's-80', in "A Thief In The Night" series, Dallas Theological Alumni Tim La Haye's "Left Behind" Sci-Fi.

This has Satan running around killing every living christian, a false teaching. Will there be future tribulation martyrs, yes just as there is today around the world.

Many are ignorant of the truth of the future "Two Witnesses" literal prophets returned, that will bring literal plagues upon this world, as often as they will.

A remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt. Were the Hebrews protected during this time, 100% Yes!

God's Protection:

"All believers are sealed" by God the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 4:30

Revelation 9:4 we see the evil released to torment the earth, it's "COMMANDED" to hurt only those "Without God's Seal"

Revelation 13:9-10 we see God shouting protection for the believer, if they desire to kill, they in return will be killed.

"Here Is The Patience And Faith Of The Saints"

Revelation 3:9-11 We see the Lords protection in the final hours, this same protection is seen in Isaiah 26:20-21, enter your chambers for a little moment, until the indignation is past.

"Just as the Hebrew passover in Egypt"!

Jesus Christ Is Lord.

Truth7t7
 
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Truth7t7

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There can be more than one last day as the last day of the week, the last day of the month and the last day of the year are all last days of different sequences. Many who deny the rapture also deny the 1000 year reign of Jesus from earth. Jesus said it would be like the days of Noah and the days of Lot and we see there was a last day before the event transpired. This passage talks about a day when the dead in Christ are raised and those alive at this time meet Him in the air. We see in Rev 20 those beheaded in the tribulation are promised to live again and reign with Jesus 1000 years. In Rev 5 they sing a song that they too should rule and reign with Jesus upon the earth. In Jude we see Enoch quoted saying he saw the LORD coming with thousands of His saints. In Zech 14 we see the very day Jesus returns described in detail. As this chapter shows Jerusalem being overrun. It says the LORD will fight and he comes with His saints. It says on this specific day that the MT of Olives will split in two and a new river will flow year round and in that day the LORD will be king over all the earth. It says it is a day that at night it will be daylight and the LORD will melt his enemies and it shows a continuation on earth after this day the kingdom comes to earth as from that point on the nations must come to keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain.

In Rev 20 it shows Satan is bound for 1000 years and the nations are no more deceived from that time on until he is loosed. The 2nd coming is at the battle of Armageddon when Satan is released he rallies a force and surrounds Jerusalem and then fire comes down and destroys him That is the last day then the great white throne judgment and then the new heaven and earth come down. I believe the coming of the LORD to meet the saints in the air is called a blessed hope that is a source we are supposed to encourage one another with. If there is no rapture and the 2nd coming and rapture are mid or post trib is does not void the timeline of events leading to the 2nd coming and millennium.
There can be more than one last day?

The First Last Day?

The Second Last Day?

The Third Last Day?

The Last Day Of The Last Day?

There can be more than one last day, if you want a false teaching like the pre-trib rapture to work.

Bend & Twist To Make It Fit.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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"Scripture Explicitly States"

Jesus returns in the final judgment, eternal life, eternal kingdom.

Matthew 25:31-46

Verse 31-32 Jesus returns with the angels, the nations are gathered before the throne for judgment.

Verse 34 The eternal kingdom is presented to the righteous

Verse 42 The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire.

Verse 46 The righteous obtain eternal life, and enter the eternal kingdom in verse 34.

"Eternity Begins"!

The will be no 1000 year kingdom on this earth at the return of Jesus Christ.

"Eternity Begins"!
the Our Father has an interesting line thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Heaven was never forfeited and Gods reign there shows in Job that after the fall God had authority over Satan. The prophecy in Gen after the fall was the seed of the serpent will bruise the heal of the seed of the women but the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent. When Jesus was baptized he was then tempted by Satan who offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in a time if He would bow to Satan. Jesus called Satan the ruler of this world. In Rev 11 the angles proclaim that the kingdoms of this earth have become the kingdoms or our LORD and His Christ and he will reign forever. The book of Rev ch 20 says Satan is bound for 1000 years and the beast and false prophet are cast into the fire. After 1000 years Satan is let out to deceive the nations one more time. In Daniel 7 it speaks of the one speaking pompous words being thrown into the fire. And it says the other beasts had their dominion taken away but their lives were prolonged a season and a time. The kingdom that begins at the 2nd coming is the one that enter that goes into the new Jerusalem after the great white throne judgement . The kingdom that was on earth continues with the same kingdom of God after the millennium. When Satan is loosed as Dan 7 refers to the rest of the beast lost their dominion but their live were prolonged for a season and a time. You see when Satan is loosed he does not get back any dominion and his demise is described as fire coming down form heaven as they surround Jerusalem. This is not Armageddon.
 
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Truth7t7

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the Our Father has an interesting line thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Heaven was never forfeited and Gods reign there shows in Job that after the fall God had authority over Satan. The prophecy in Gen after the fall was the seed of the serpent will bruise the heal of the seed of the women but the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent. When Jesus was baptized he was then tempted by Satan who offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in a time if He would bow to Satan. Jesus called Satan the ruler of this world. In Rev 11 the angles proclaim that the kingdoms of this earth have become the kingdoms or our LORD and His Christ and he will reign forever. The book of Rev ch 20 says Satan is bound for 1000 years and the beast and false prophet are cast into the fire. After 1000 years Satan is let out to deceive the nations one more time. In Daniel 7 it speaks of the one speaking pompous words being thrown into the fire. And it says the other beasts had their dominion taken away but their lives were prolonged a season and a time. The kingdom that begins at the 2nd coming is the one that enter that goes into the new Jerusalem after the great white throne judgement . The kingdom that was on earth continues with the same kingdom of God after the millennium. When Satan is loosed as Dan 7 refers to the rest of the beast lost their dominion but their live were prolonged for a season and a time. You see when Satan is loosed he does not get back any dominion and his demise is described as fire coming down form heaven as they surround Jerusalem. This is not Armageddon.
There is no future 1000 year kingdom on this earth as you claim in error.

Jesus returns in the final judgment, eternal life, eternal kingdom.

Matthew 25:31-46

Verse 31-32 Jesus returns, nations gathered for judgment.

Verse 34 The eternal kingdom presented to the righteous.

Verse 41 The wicked judged to the eternal lake of fire.

Verse 46 The righteous obtain eternal life, and enter the eternal kingdom in verse 34

There is no 1000 year kingdom on earth when Jesus returns.

"Eternity Begins"

How long will you continue to teach in error?
 
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JacksBratt

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There is no future 1000 year kingdom on this earth as you claim in error.
No?

Then for what "1000 year period" is Satan going to be restrained?

It cannot be now.
It hasn't been previously.
It must be in the future.
If there is no millennial reign of Christ after the tribulation... then...It cannot be after the return of Christ at Armageddon.

So? When is Satan locked up for 1000 years and then let out near the end to deceive those for one more time?
 
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BABerean2

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So? When is Satan locked up for 1000 years and then let out near the end to deceive those for one more time?

The answer is found below.
The judgment of the dead occurs right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


 
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Postvieww

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Don't tell me. Let me guess... this is another thread for people to argue on and on about the reality of and timing of the Rapture...

Oh good. We needed another thread on this....

Hey... has anyone changed their view..

Please respond by quoting my post here..... just say... "Yes, I changed my view" or "NOPE".
I have been a member of this forum for a little over 3 years and I have recollection of one person changing their mind on any subject. I changed my mind on this topic but it was not a result of arguments on this forum.

You do make a good point here, but we carry on. After all we all think we are right, don't we? :preach:
 
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