1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Isn't A Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Don't Be Deceived!

[Douggg]

No I'm Not A Baptist, Nor Do I Subscribe To The False Teachings Of A Pre-Trib Rapture, Or 1000 Year Kingdom On This Earth.

Whats Your Argument?

My own point.... the rapture may happen pre-70th week. Or it may happen after the 70th week begins.

 

[Quasar92]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the event of the "Second Coming" and "Resurrection" of " The Dead In Christ", on "The Last Day".

Is there a resurrection of "The Dead In Christ" seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

100% "YES"!

When does the resurrection of "The Dead In Christ" take place?

"On The Last Day", As Jesus Christ Clearly Taught In John 6:40, John 11:23-24.

"I Will Raise Him Up At The Last Day"

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 isn't a Pre-Trib Rapture, its "The Last Day", with no days of human existence beyond this.

Don't Be Deceived By The Ole Bait And Switch Trick.

Jesus Christ Is Lord

Truth7t7

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, who refute you:

Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Scriptures that prove the Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ on Earth

Matthew 19:28--And Jesus said unto them, Truly I say unto you, that ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Messieh comes in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 25:31--When the Messieh shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory.

This coming with power and great glory with his angels is well documented (Matthew 24:30-31). And that he sits on an earthly throne after this coming cannot be disproven. Right now, John saw him on a Throne in heaven. He is there as God and reigns as God on that throne. He has never ceased to be God and there has ever been a Kingdom of God in heaven. He said: Heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool. But he also said to the Apostles his throne would be upon this earth. He brought this heavenly Kingdom to earth and he will reign here in person as the heir of David's throne in the millennial.

2Peter 3:8--But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

In verse 7 it appears Apostle Peter had given a prophecy of the very end of the world when it would be destroyed. Then in retrospect of a time before that event he gives us the prophecy of the thousand years and equates it as one day with the Lord. He urges us not to be ignorant of this time frame of a day being equal to a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4--And I saw thrones, and they that sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,and for the word of God,and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither has received his mark upon their foreheads, or upon their hands; and they lived and reigned with Messieh a thousand years.

Matthew 25:34--Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come ye blessed of God, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

1Corinthians 6:9--Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, etc. ect.

Revelation 21:7--They that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be their God, and they shall be my elect.

Revelation 5:10--And has made us unto God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 20:6--Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Messieh, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It is obvious that the 1,000 years follows the resurrection. It is also obvious the 1,000 years is a time when death has no power over the Saints of God. This can only be after the second coming at which time it is said:

1Corinthians 15:54--So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

It is further obvious that the 1,000 years is after the first physical resurrection of those dead, after death has no power, that the resurrected Saints reign as Priests of God for one thousand years. The sequence must remain intact and in sequential order. The same 1,000 years the devil is bound is the same 1,000 years those who were martyred for not taking the mark of the beast are physically raised in a resurrection and reign with the Lord.

To say the 1,000 years runs concurrently or parallel with the Church is to say the physical resurrection of those who were martyred is past. The amillennialist have yet to prove there are resurrected martyrs in the world and have been here since their alleged 1,000 began. Such is demanded if the spiritualization of the 1,000 years as the Church age is correct. Are there many thousands of Saints who already have immortality and are deathless, and that they are now as Priest reigning with Messieh upon the earth?

The present Ministry of the Church are not reigning and are forbidden to be Lord's over God's heritage. They are nor deathless. And the resurrection and immortality have not come yet because Jesus has not returned. To have immortality here now is to say that Jesus has come already. And if he has, what of their end of the world when he comes. Why are we still here? Why has not the world ended? Please read on now as I bring forth more on this important endtime subject.

Source: http://jesus-messiah.com/apologetics/ca ... mill1.html

Quassar92

 

[Quasar92]

Why 1 Thess.4:16 is not a resurrection

First of all, 1 Thess.4:16 is seven years before Rev.20:4 will take place, and Jesus told John, the resurrection of the tri8bulation mrtyrs/saints in Rev.20:4, is the first one.

The statement by Paul in 1 Thess.4:16, "...and the dead in Christ will rise first," does not mean a resurrection is about to occur. Because they were all raised once before, as those who die in Christ, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8, and as FIRSTFRUITS, each in his own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. Who will return with Jesus when He comes with them from heaven, according to vs 14. If Paul meant it was to be a resurrection. 1 Thess.4:13-18 has nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Christ to the earth, as documented in Mt.24:30; Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, when the Pre-trib raptured Church RETURNS WITH CHRIST, from their marriage in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-8!

But rather than meaning it to be a resurrection, it was the third of Paul's assurances to the Thessalonians, that all the members of their church, who had already died in Christ, would not miss the pre-trib rapture of the Church he was teaching them about.

The first of Paul's three assurances begins in vs 13: "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep [die], or to grieve like the rest of men [non-believers], who have no hope." [Parenthetics mine].

Then he followed up his first assurance to them that all those who had previously died in Christ would be together with them at the rapture of the Church in the very next verse [14]: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him." Revealing to them, that Christ had previously raised them all once before, as documented in 2 Cor.5:6-8, and had been in heaven with Him ever since. Since all the dead in Christ have been raised once before, there is no reason for them having to be raised a second time. Confirming their status as FIRSTFRUITS, raised each in his own order, according to 1 Cor.15:23.

There will not be any resurrected then, because all their dead in Christ had already been raised once before, in their spiritual bodies [As recorded in 1 Cor.15:44], following the death of their bodies, when they immediately went to be with Christ in heaven. Confirming Ecc.12:7 as well as 2 Cor.5:6-8. Confirmed in 1 Thes.4:14, saying they are returning with Christ, when He returns, from heaven with them. Therefore, when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky for all those who belong to Him left here on earth alive, they will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air [together with those who previously died in Him, who are already there].

The second of Paul's three assurances to the Thessalonians, was that their dead in Christ will not miss the rapture of the Church is in vs 15, which states: "According to the Lord's own word [Recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are left [Believers] till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep [Died]." Of course not! Because they will have already been raised once before, and gone to be with the Lord in heaven in their spiritual bodies, and then return with Him when He comes from heaven! They certainly do not need a resurrection, because they are going to the spiritual world in heaven. In contrast to the glorified physical bodies that will be necessary at the time of the resurrection documented in Rev.20:4 and 6. Because they are to be priests of God and rule with Jesus for 1,000 years right here on the earth, in a human environment! [Parenthetics mine].

The third and final assurance Paul wrote in vs 16, the subject of this thread, has already been addressed above.

There is also the false view by those, who attempt to make 1 Thes.4:16-17 a reference to the first resurrection in Rev.20:4 and 6, at the second coming of Christ, which does not take place until seven years later. Which is not possible, because after we [All believers] have been CAUGHT UP to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, we will go to be with our Father in heaven, as Jesus promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. Seven years after that, we will all return with Christ, from heaven, at His second coming to the earth, as recorded in Rev.19:14, Zech.14:4-5 and in Jude 14.

Nowhere in the Bible is there a single passage of anyone called up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, when He returns in His second coming to the earth! Because the first of many things He will do, is in fighting the Antichrist, the false prophet and their ten nations allied to them, in the battle of Armageddon and defeating them, the forces of evil, according to Rev.19:11-20. Then in setting up His Millennial Kingdom here on the earth, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. He does not return to heaven from that time on until the present heaven and earth is destroyed and a new heaven and earth is created by God in Rev.21:1.
The precise timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church is recorded in 2 Thes.2:1-8, in which the theme of it begins in the first verse: Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our being gathered to Him..., which is a clear reference to 1 Thes.4:17, where Paul stated that we will all be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky.

In 2 Thess.2:3 he made this statement according to the original translation: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, from vs 2, the seven year tribulation] will not come until the apostasia/Greek term meaning departure [When we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky] occurs [first] and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction." The same vile person in vs 4 who abominates the temple of God and sets himself up as God.

The following is the translation history of the Greek term apostasia and the Latin term discessio Jerome translated apostasia as, in 325 A.D.
Translation History of apostasia and Discessio:

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384 A.D.); Tyndale Bible (1526 A.D.); Coverdale Bible (1535 A.D.); Cranmer Bible (1539 A.D.); Breeches Bible (1576 A.D.); Beza Bible (1583 A.D.); Geneva Bible (1608 A.D.) .[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' " Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" in 1611 A.D.?

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No good reason was ever given. [Most likely because of the RCC Amillianial theology].

The difference between the rapture of the Church and the second coming of Christ

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, who is all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27 and the abomination of desolation. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, which triggers the seven year tribulation, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.

There is no resemblance of Mt.24:30-31, or in any of the counterparts in Mk.13 and Lk.21 of the second coming of Christ, to the earth, to that of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, when Jesus gathers us all into the clouds of the sky and takes us from there to our Father in heaven, according to as Jesus, in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. And Paul in 1 Thes.4:14-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8. Confirming Dan.9:27. [The latter confirms who the antichrist is, his triggering the 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation and the timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church as confirmed by Paul in 2 Thes.2:1-8].

In Mt.24:30-31, Jesus returns in His second coming to the earth for a number of reasons [to fight the battle of armageddon and defeat the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten nation confederation allied to them, in Rev.19:17-20. He does not gather anyone to Himself in the clouds of the sky, nor does He return to heaven with them!
But rather, to save the remnant of Israel, in Zech.14, to throw Satan into the Abyss for 1,000 years, in Rev.20:1-3, to administer to the first resurrection, in Rev.20:4 and 6], and to establish His 1,000 year reign on the earth.

There are no saints meeting Him in the clouds of the sky, nor does He return to heaven with the saints to our Father in heaven as He promises us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. In addition to the fact the raptured saints are seen returning with Jesus and His angels [From Mt.24:30] in His second coming to the earth in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, in His armies from heaven, ridiing white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. ["Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints," Rev.19:8 NIV].

The Scriptures clearly teach there is going to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church!

All parenthetics mine

Quassr92.

 

[Truth7t7]

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, who refute you:

Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf


Quasar92

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture, Jesus nor any of the apostles taught of such as you claim.

 

[Quasar92]

My post you replied to, T7x7, refute you. The opinion you expressed is meaningless, without a shred of Scriptural support. Let me see your Scriptural support to verify those that refute you.

Quasr92

 

[Cat Loaf You]

For people who don't see difference .

Hosea 6:2
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Last day =/= Third day .

Also why would you ressurect somebody first to then hide them in chambers ? Why not just revive all on last day unless...


19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.


You guys realise that our chambers are not in this world because we are taken out of this world right ?

John 17:16
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.


Also if there is post tribulation rapture then Jesus lied here

Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


He said it pretty clear . Born of women = before Holy Spirit sealed people , we as Christians are born of God that's why even evil Christians are higher in kingdom than these before Holy Spirit was given , we can't be risen up at the same time .

 

[SeventyOne]

You assume there will be a 1000 year kingdom on this earth?

Jesus Returns " Immediately after the tribulation" Matthew 24:29-31

Jesus returns in the resurrection, final judgment, eternal life, eternal kingdom. Matthew 25:31-46

This existing earth is dissolved by the Lords fire at his appearance/return.

2 Peter 3:10-13, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, Malachi 3:2, Luke 17:29-30, 1 Corinthians 3:13

There will be no 1000 year kingdom on this earth to follow the return of Jesus Christ.

"Eternity Begins"

When scripture explicitly states, "They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Then I'm inclined to believe Christ was also reigning for those thousand years. Besides, nothing you wrote there would actually hinder such a kingdom. It's all a matter of knowing when the new heaven and earth come.

 

[SeventyOne]

Yup. It's the righteous people.

Everybody in the world belongs to one of two very specific groups. The righteous, or the wicked. You either have the mark of God, or the mark of the beast. There is no in between.

James 4:4 says "You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God."


On the contrary. Even granny who died 30 years ago was either righteous or wicked. She either had the mark of God, or the mark of the beast.

You completely ignored the description of those people to make it fit your theology. Then you allgorized the beheadings and the mark of the beast to make it say what you wanted.

How can we talk about this when you use scripture as your own personal Play-Doh set?

 

[Truth7t7]

When scripture explicitly states, "They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Then I'm inclined to believe Christ was also reigning for those thousand years. Besides, nothing you wrote there would actually hinder such a kingdom. It's all a matter of knowing when the new heaven and earth come.

"Scripture Explicitly States"

Jesus returns in the final judgment, eternal life, eternal kingdom.

Matthew 25:31-46

Verse 31-32 Jesus returns with the angels, the nations are gathered before the throne for judgment.

Verse 34 The eternal kingdom is presented to the righteous

Verse 42 The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire.

Verse 46 The righteous obtain eternal life, and enter the eternal kingdom in verse 34.

"Eternity Begins"!

The will be no 1000 year kingdom on this earth at the return of Jesus Christ.

"Eternity Begins"!

 

[SeventyOne]

"Scripture Explicitly States"

Jesus returns in the final judgment, eternal life, eternal kingdom.

Matthew 25:31-46

Verse 31-32 Jesus returns with the angels, the nations are gathered before the throne for judgment.

Verse 34 The eternal kingdom is presented to the righteous

Verse 42 The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire.

Verse 46 The righteous obtain eternal life, and enter the eternal kingdom in verse 34.

"Eternity Begins"!

The will be no 1000 year kingdom on this earth at the return of Jesus Christ.

"Eternity Begins"!

You mean the same passage that starts off with Jesus returning to Earth to sit on His throne?

Where the righteous living are told 'inherit' the kingdom?

The one where only those who make up the nations of the earth at that time are being judged, and not all people?

The passage that states the wicked 'will' go away into eternal punishment, not that they were sent to the lake of fire at that very moment?

I don't know how to break it to you, but there's nothing here that doesn't fit with a millennial reign. You can deny it, but there are no contradictions.

 

[dqhall]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the event of the "Second Coming" and "Resurrection" of " The Dead In Christ", on "The Last Day".

Is there a resurrection of "The Dead In Christ" seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

100% "YES"!

When does the resurrection of "The Dead In Christ" take place?

"On The Last Day", As Jesus Christ Clearly Taught In John 6:40, John 11:23-24.

"I Will Raise Him Up At The Last Day"

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 isn't a Pre-Trib Rapture, its "The Last Day", with no days of human existence beyond this.

Don't Be Deceived By The Ole Bait And Switch Trick.

Jesus Christ Is Lord

Truth7t7

Jesus will return to establish righteousness. I remember some time ago there was a Greek Orthodox priest writing in Christian Forums. He testified the Book of Revelation is not used in the Greek Orthodox liturgy. Eusebius wrote about some objections to Revelation in his "Ecclesiastical History," of the first three centuries AD.

Matthew 25:31-46 World English Bible (WEB)
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in. 36 I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you; or thirsty, and give you a drink? 38 When did we see you as a stranger, and take you in; or naked, and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?’

40 “The King will answer them, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you didn’t give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me in; naked, and you didn’t clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’

44 “Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?’

45 “Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[Quasar92]

You mean the same passage that starts off with Jesus returning to Earth to sit on His throne?

Where the righteous living are told 'inherit' the kingdom?

The one where only those who make up the nations of the earth at that time are being judged, and not all people?

The passage that states the wicked 'will' go away into eternal punishment, not that they were sent to the lake of fire at that very moment?

I don't know how to break it to you, but there's nothing here that doesn't fit with a millennial reign. You can deny it, but there are no contradictions.

In response to Truth7x7 claims there will be no 1,ooo year reign of Christ on earth:

THERE WILL BE TWO MORE TEMPLES BUILT IN ISRAEL

The tribulation temple:

Matthew 24:15 - When you see the “abomination of desolation,” spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place…

2 Thessalonians 2:4 - "...so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God"

Revelation 11:1 - "...Go and measure the temple of God and the alter..."

The Millennial temple:

Ezekiel 43:7 - "...this is the place of my throne...This is where I will live among the Israelites forever."

Ezekiel 43:27 - …your priests will your burnt offerings and peace offerings on the altar, and I will accept you, declares the Lord.

Zechariah 6:12 - Here is the Man whose name is the Branch, and he will…build the temple of the Lord.

At the present time there is no temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, the location of both the first and second Jewish Temples. Instead, two Muslim shrines, The Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, stand on the Temple Mount. Meantime, the Jewish people to consider the Temple
Mount to be the most sacred place for Jews in all the world.

No wonder the Temple Mount is a political powder keg and must be part of any formula for peace in the Middle East!

According to the Bible, a temple will once again stand on the Temple Mount. How and when the Temple Mount will be available for a future temple remains to be seen. Biblical prophecy “buffs” have proposed all kinds of potential scenarios for how all of this could take place—everything from earthquakes to explosives to the collapse of the
Temple Mount platform!

Some well-meaning Christians have felt that the biblical predictions of a future Temple should be spiritualized, saying that these prophecies refer to the Church or to the individual Christian. Indeed, 1 Corinthians 3:16 makes it quite clear that the Church, as the body of Christ, is the spiritual temple of the Holy Spirit. And in 1 Corinthians 6:19 we are taught that the physical body of every individual believer is to be honored and kept clean, because it is the temple of the Holy
Spirit. But these wonderful New Testament truths do not alter the biblical predictions of a literal future Temple in Jerusalem.

The question of a future Temple gets more complicated when we realizethat the Bible teaches that two temples are yet to stand on the Temple Mount in the future. First will come a Tribulation Temple, followed by a Millennium Temple which will be built when the Lord returns and sets up His kingdom on this earth. Let's look at the Scriptures dealing with
these two future temples.

Here: Israel's Third and Fourth Temples

Here: http://sonstoglory.com/ThirdTempleEzeki ... Temple.htm [No tribulation temple shown]


.The following explains the vast differences in the dimensions of the Millennial temple described in Ez,40-47 over that of Zerubbabel's, in:

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.p ... ost5640230

Versus the following! Dimensions.Of the dimensions of this Temple there are given but few data. Hecatæus, a Greek writer contemporary with Alexander the Great, is quoted by Josephus ("Contra Ap." i. 22) as saying that the Temple area was enclosed by a wall a plethra, or 500 Greek feet, in length and 100 Greek cubits in breadth, i.e., 485½ × 145½ English feet. The altar was built of unhewn stones in conformity with the precepts of the Law (comp. I Macc. iv. 44 et seq.). The dimensions of the building were probably the same as those of Solomon's Temple, though the edifice was apparently at first lacking in ornament. It was probably because the building was less ornate that the old men who had seen the former Temple wept at the sight of its successor (Ezra iii. 12; Josephus, "Ant." xi. 4, § 2).

Nehemiah in rebuilding the city wall followed the lines of the former wall, and it is altogether likely that the old lines were followed in building the walls of the Temple also. The statement in Ezra vi. 3 that Cyrus gave permission to make the Temple 60 cubits high and 60 cubits broad has probably no connection with its actual dimensions: how the statement arose can now be only conjectured. The authorities for this period make no mention of the palace of Solomon. If the wall of the Temple was at this period less than 500 feet long, the whole Temple court occupied but about one-third the length of the present Ḥaram area, and less than half its width (comp. Baedeker, "Palestine and Syria," ed. 1898, p. 39). It is probable that the site of Solomon's palace either lay desolate or was covered by other dwellings.

The Temple was surrounded by two courts (I Macc. i. 22, iv. 48); but until the time of Alexander Jannæus (104-79 B.C.) it would seem that these were separated by a difference of elevation only. That ruler surrounded the inner court with a wall of wood because the Pharisees, with whom he was unpopular, had pelted him with citrons while officiating at the altar at the Feast of Tabernacles (comp. "Ant." xiii. 13, § 5). The inner court contained chambers for storing the garments of the priests (I Macc. iv. 38, 57). The stone altar of burnt offering probably occupied the site of the bronze altar in Solomon's Temple.

Source: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... the-second


Quasar92

 

[dqhall]

In response to Truth7x7 claims there will be no 1,ooo year reign of Christ on earth:

THERE WILL BE TWO MORE TEMPLES BUILT IN ISRAEL

The tribulation temple:

Matthew 24:15 - When you see the “abomination of desolation,” spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place…

2 Thessalonians 2:4 - "...so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God"

Revelation 11:1 - "...Go and measure the temple of God and the alter..."

The Millennial temple:

Ezekiel 43:7 - "...this is the place of my throne...This is where I will live among the Israelites forever."

Ezekiel 43:27 - …your priests will your burnt offerings and peace offerings on the altar, and I will accept you, declares the Lord.

Zechariah 6:12 - Here is the Man whose name is the Branch, and he will…build the temple of the Lord.

At the present time there is no temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, the location of both the first and second Jewish Temples. Instead, two Muslim shrines, The Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, stand on the Temple Mount. Meantime, the Jewish people to consider the Temple
Mount to be the most sacred place for Jews in all the world.

No wonder the Temple Mount is a political powder keg and must be part of any formula for peace in the Middle East!

According to the Bible, a temple will once again stand on the Temple Mount. How and when the Temple Mount will be available for a future temple remains to be seen. Biblical prophecy “buffs” have proposed all kinds of potential scenarios for how all of this could take place—everything from earthquakes to explosives to the collapse of the
Temple Mount platform!

Some well-meaning Christians have felt that the biblical predictions of a future Temple should be spiritualized, saying that these prophecies refer to the Church or to the individual Christian. Indeed, 1 Corinthians 3:16 makes it quite clear that the Church, as the body of Christ, is the spiritual temple of the Holy Spirit. And in 1 Corinthians 6:19 we are taught that the physical body of every individual believer is to be honored and kept clean, because it is the temple of the Holy
Spirit. But these wonderful New Testament truths do not alter the biblical predictions of a literal future Temple in Jerusalem.

The question of a future Temple gets more complicated when we realizethat the Bible teaches that two temples are yet to stand on the Temple Mount in the future. First will come a Tribulation Temple, followed by a Millennium Temple which will be built when the Lord returns and sets up His kingdom on this earth. Let's look at the Scriptures dealing with
these two future temples.

Here: Israel's Third and Fourth Temples

Here: http://sonstoglory.com/ThirdTempleEzeki ... Temple.htm [No tribulation temple shown]


.The following explains the vast differences in the dimensions of the Millennial temple described in Ez,40-47 over that of Zerubbabel's, in:

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.p ... ost5640230

Versus the following! Dimensions.Of the dimensions of this Temple there are given but few data. Hecatæus, a Greek writer contemporary with Alexander the Great, is quoted by Josephus ("Contra Ap." i. 22) as saying that the Temple area was enclosed by a wall a plethra, or 500 Greek feet, in length and 100 Greek cubits in breadth, i.e., 485½ × 145½ English feet. The altar was built of unhewn stones in conformity with the precepts of the Law (comp. I Macc. iv. 44 et seq.). The dimensions of the building were probably the same as those of Solomon's Temple, though the edifice was apparently at first lacking in ornament. It was probably because the building was less ornate that the old men who had seen the former Temple wept at the sight of its successor (Ezra iii. 12; Josephus, "Ant." xi. 4, § 2).

Nehemiah in rebuilding the city wall followed the lines of the former wall, and it is altogether likely that the old lines were followed in building the walls of the Temple also. The statement in Ezra vi. 3 that Cyrus gave permission to make the Temple 60 cubits high and 60 cubits broad has probably no connection with its actual dimensions: how the statement arose can now be only conjectured. The authorities for this period make no mention of the palace of Solomon. If the wall of the Temple was at this period less than 500 feet long, the whole Temple court occupied but about one-third the length of the present Ḥaram area, and less than half its width (comp. Baedeker, "Palestine and Syria," ed. 1898, p. 39). It is probable that the site of Solomon's palace either lay desolate or was covered by other dwellings.

The Temple was surrounded by two courts (I Macc. i. 22, iv. 48); but until the time of Alexander Jannæus (104-79 B.C.) it would seem that these were separated by a difference of elevation only. That ruler surrounded the inner court with a wall of wood because the Pharisees, with whom he was unpopular, had pelted him with citrons while officiating at the altar at the Feast of Tabernacles (comp. "Ant." xiii. 13, § 5). The inner court contained chambers for storing the garments of the priests (I Macc. iv. 38, 57). The stone altar of burnt offering probably occupied the site of the bronze altar in Solomon's Temple.

Source: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... the-second


Quasar92

The Jews desire a temple, but God does not live in buildings made by hand (Isaiah 66:1-2, Acts 17:24).

Jesus was speaking to a Samaritan woman by a well while his disciples went into town to buy food:

John 4:19 The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.”

21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour comes, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, will you worship the Father. 22 You worship that which you don’t know. We worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to be his worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

 

[Quasar92]

The Jews desire a temple, but God does not live in buildings made by hand (Isaiah 66:1-2, Acts 17:24).

Jesus was speaking to a Samaritan woman by a well while his disciples went into town to buy food:

John 4:19 The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.”

21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour comes, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, will you worship the Father. 22 You worship that which you don’t know. We worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to be his worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

You have not read the statements of God pertaining to the completion of both Solomon's temple as well as that of Zerubbabel's, contradicting your claims, As well as the Scriptures posted in my post you replied to that refute you.

Quasar92

 

[JacksBratt]

Don't tell me. Let me guess... this is another thread for people to argue on and on about the reality of and timing of the Rapture...

Oh good. We needed another thread on this....

Hey... has anyone changed their view..

Please respond by quoting my post here..... just say... "Yes, I changed my view" or "NOPE".

 

[JacksBratt]

I'll go first:

NOPE, I have not changed my view on the reality of and timing of the Rapture by viewing, reading and participating in any of the many, many, many threads that have argued this ad nauseam.

 

[BABerean2]

At the present time there is no temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, the location of both the first and second Jewish Temples.

The area now known as "The Temple Mount" is the remains of Roman Fort Antonia, which was built to house the thousands of Roman soldiers needed to police the city of Jerusalem during the time of Christ.

Recent underground excavations by well known Israeli archeologist Eli Shukron at the base of the area now known as "The Wailing Wall", which is made up of stones stacked one upon another (see Matthew 24:1-3), revealed a Roman coin minted after Herod's temple was completed.

Therefore it cannot be a part of the ancient Jewish temple.

See the link below.

The Temple Mount and Fort Antonia

 

[Marvin Knox]

You assume there will be a 1000 year kingdom on this earth?

He assumes that the scriptures are not deceiving us when they tell us that very thing.

He also assumes that the promises given to Israel in the O.T. will be honored by God in the future as He clearly told us.

He assumes that the Lord has not destined us to His wrath such as d
He displays in the tribulation.

Millions of us assume the same things.

 

[thesunisout]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the event of the "Second Coming" and "Resurrection" of " The Dead In Christ", on "The Last Day".

Is there a resurrection of "The Dead In Christ" seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

100% "YES"!

When does the resurrection of "The Dead In Christ" take place?

"On The Last Day", As Jesus Christ Clearly Taught In John 6:40, John 11:23-24.

"I Will Raise Him Up At The Last Day"

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 isn't a Pre-Trib Rapture, its "The Last Day", with no days of human existence beyond this.

Don't Be Deceived By The Ole Bait And Switch Trick.

Jesus Christ Is Lord

Truth7t7

2 Thessalonians 2:3

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

Paul warns us there will be a deception about the day of the Lord, and that is exactly what we are seeing today. There is not a single scripture which clearly teaches the pre-trib rapture; it is cobbled together from a misinterpretation of a few different scriptures. It is also invoked to fill in the gaps where our understanding is lacking in certain elements of the tribulation times. Where ever there is a lack of light on a certain element of the tribulation someone finds a way to insert the pre-trib rapture into it. All this does is impede our understanding and preparation for what these times will be like.

Satan doesn't want an end time army of saints ready to endure persecution; he wants a disorganized group who isn't ready to face persecution, believing strongly they will be spared the worst. This is setting the church up for a falling away when hard times come. This is exactly what happened in China when it was first evangelized; the Chinese were taught they wouldn't have to face persecution so when persecution did come, many fell away.