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What do you think of 1 Thessalonians 4:14 And 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 When you read it?Back to back?
What I see is that the dead in Christ resurrect in heaven not on the Earth.
In 1 Thessalonians 5:10 it says either awake or asleep we will live together with jesus.If we live together with jesus while asleep(dead) then how are we being resurrected?
In 1 Thessalonians 5:10 it says either awake or asleep we will live together with jesus.If we live together with jesus while asleep(dead) then how are we being resurrected?
A person asleep in the grave ... knows nothing ...
The only thing in a literal grave is the dead body. It is not sleeping because it is dead. It rots away and is gone. The spirit/soul of a person goes either to heaven or to Hades and no one there is asleep. All the dead are awake and alert and are bodiless until resurrection.
Luk_23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Every eye shall see him, even those that had pierced him though they died long ago. If they were asleep or dead they couldn't witness his return!
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Here John seeing a future event in heaven and he sees the souls of the dead and they are fully alert and talking.
Luk_23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
[/QUOTE
The spirit goes to God!
Jesus IS God. He is eternal. Has always been ... just like the Father.
Luke 23:46
English Standard Version
Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.
The breath of life (sustaining His human life) returned to God.
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being" Genesis 2:7
Scripture gives us a simple equation for understanding the nature of humans:
Body (dust of the ground; the earth's elements) plus
Breath of life ("spirit" of life from God) equals
A living person (a soul).
Nowhere does the Bible speak of the soul as an immortal entity capable of living apart from our body. Neither does it speak of the spirit as an entity which can exist independent of our physical nature. We are not made of independent parts temporarily connected, but of body, soul, and spirit in one indivisible whole.
Only God is immortal. We do not become immortal until Jesus returns and the 1st resurrection happens.
Do souls die?
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20. "Every living soul died in the sea." Revelation 16:3.
Answer: According to God's Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal Job 4:17 Only God is immortal 1 Timothy 6:15, 16 . The concept of an undying, immortal soul goes against the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.
Souls under the alter
In vision, John is projected forward to our time now, a time when one martyrdom has already happened (during the Middle Ages) and a greater one (the Tribulation) is yet to come. The "souls" (persons - Christians) who "would be slain [martyred]" are told to "rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed" Revelation 6:11 Those who have died as martyrs are to continue to "rest" - remain in their graves - compare Acts 2:26-27 - until others, like them, are also martyred. Remember, heaven contains no graves, so this must occur on the earth.
The "souls" - the dead saints - crying "avenge our blood" Revelation 6:10 is similar to Abel's blood - his life, see Leviticus 17:14 - crying to God from the ground Genesis 4:10 Hebrews 11:4 . Since neither blood nor the dead talk Psalm 115:17 Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 , we know that the meaning is not literal. The "souls under the altar," then, is a symbolic picture of the martyrdom of saints.
Again ... nothing about us is immortal until Jesus returns and we are resurrected ... THEN we receive immortality ... until then those who have passed rest in the grave.
Paul sums it up here and is clear about it.
1 Thessalonians 4
The Return of the Lord
13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
We are not made of independent parts temporarily connected, but of body, soul, and spirit in one indivisible whole.
The soul and spirit are only in our bodies temporarily so you are wrong on this. When the body dies, the soul and spirit leave.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
The soul and spirit go to heaven when the body dies. The other important part of this is the fact that neither soul or spirit remain in a literal grave with the dead body.
Bible says otherwise as the scripture I previously put forth. A "soul" ... is a person
.... the breath of life (breath that sustains us while alive on earth) returns to God.
WE ARE NOT IMMORTAL ... no part of us is. We will be resurrected when the Lord returns ... THEN we become immortal. Look at the greek and hebrew.
A soul is also something inside of a person.
That isn't scriptural. The spirit in us returns to God not the breath of life.
That's strawman arguments.
The breath of life is what sustains our human life.
When we die our breath returns to God and we cease to exist our earthly life.
A soul is not something we "possess". Scripture is clear ... when we die our earthly death we wait until the return of the Lord.
Please provide all the verses that states when one dies (earthly death) they go to be in heaven at that time?
If so .... (go to heaven at earthly death) when has judgement occurred?
That isn't found in scripture. All it said is God breathed and Adam was alive. Nothing says it "sustains" human life. What sustains human life is food and water etc.
That is also not found in scripture. The only thing it does say is the spirit returns to God. Never does it say the breath of life does.
No, the spirit returns to God at death. We also have scripture showing the soul being in heaven after death so we know for a fact the soul and spirit leaves the body and does not stay in a literal grave.
Besides the story Christ told about the Rich man and Lazarus? One went to heaven one went to Hades. Then I already posted these verses:
Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
The body stays in the grave, but the spirit does not.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
The dead are in heaven and they aren't even asleep in heaven let alone any Earthly grave.
Judgement occurs for the faithful at the second coming. The unfaithful dead, "the rest of the dead" are judged after the thousand years are over, Rev 20.
If so .... (go to heaven at earthly death) when has judgement occurred?
Judgement occurs for the faithful at the second coming. The unfaithful dead, "the rest of the dead" are judged after the thousand years are over, Rev 20.
Besides the story Christ told about the Rich man and Lazarus? One went to heaven one went to Hades. Then I already posted these verses:
According to what you are claiming .... when one (saved) dies they (their "spirit") goes to heaven ....
nobody enters heaven (or "hell" for that matter ) unless they have been judged
How do you explain Pauls statements ... IF ... when one dies they either to to heaven or hell? He did not say they are in "Abrahams bosom" ... he said they are those who are sleep in death.
People don't go to "Abrahams bosom".
The overwhelming scriptural evidence (35+ verses) is people wait in the grave (as I previously posted).
That's what the OT says.
False. The saved are judged at the second coming and are resurrected or changed and raptured. The rest of the dead are judged a thousand years later as per Rev 20. Before these judgments the dead are either in heaven or hades.
Sleep in death means to be dead.
Christ said they do.
Only the dead body is in a literal grave. The spiritual grave where the spirit goes is either heaven or Hades.
I have already proven both soul and spirit are not in the grave with the dead body.
I have already proven both soul and spirit are not in the grave with the dead body.
You haven't proved anything .... you put forth interpretation as you understand it ... just as I do.
No, I didn't offer interpretation. I offered scripture that says the spirit returns to God, and scripture showing the souls of the dead in heaven. That is proof neither spirit nor soul remain in the grave. Nothing you provided counters those scriptures. All you have is scriptures saying the body is in the grave, or scriptures that speak of Hades or Heaven as a grave for the spirit/soul since that is where the dead dwell until resurrection and judgment. Not one scripture says spirit soul and body all remain in a literal Earthly grave and that is because that isn't correct.
John 3:13 (ESV)
No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
That is speaking of a bodily ascension. That doesn't contradict the verses saying the spirit returns to God and that souls of the dead are in heaven. Scripture cannot contradict scripture. In order to dispute the two verses I am speaking of you would have to address those scripture directly.