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1 Thessalonians 4:1

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Behold, Jul 24, 2020.

  1. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    1 Thessalonians 4:1. """Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more."""
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    This beautiful verse from God through Paul tells you 2 important things..
    It tells you that there is a "walk" that is the correct walk of faith that pleases God, and this means there is a faith walk that is incorrect, and will not please God.
    Also, this verse connects spiritually to Hebrews 11:6. "without faith its impossible to please God.""

    So, some of you, are interested in pleasing God.
    Some of you have nothing to do, so you show up or live on forums to fight and cause chaos and try to sound "smart" and "theologically deep".
    So, for the benefit of those who want to please God lets look at these verses.

    Notice that the information that you are to apply as your walk of faith has been "RECEIVED" according to 1 Thess 4:1.
    And how is that? Its by the teaching of Paul. Who is the "gentile apostle", and we are currently in the "time of the gentiles".
    So, when you are interested and truly devoted to pleasing God, you will find out how to do it and you'll do it.
    Go directly to Paul and find your WAY.

    So, what is "received" = that is how to please God?
    Well, first, its to know that without faith its impossible to please God.
    Your works dont' please God, they just make you obvious to others... "by your fruit you shall know them"..."by unfeigned love of the brethren"... and this is how people rate you, and Christians discern you, and as James says...this is for the benefit of other people.
    Or as James teaches..>"i will show YOU my faith".....not God, but other people, so that they can see that your faith is not "dead".

    Commandment keeping does not please God. FAITH pleases God.
    What type?
    The type that understands how to exist within God's Kingdom, perfectly, in perfect understanding.
    What is all this???
    This is your original faith, when you first believed, and God accepted your faith, and gave you the "new birth". "Justification BY Faith"
    And then there is your discipleship, that is the daily walking out the "working out your Salvation in awe and wonder".
    And the main thing to understand about this, Saint.... is that Christians fail to walk a good Life of Faith because they are trying to do it by will power and self effort, instead of doing it by faith that is pleasing to God, which is to believe right.
    Saint, you can't walk a perfected discipleship or withstand the devil's plan for you, unless you understand that everything that is related to how you overcome and how you sustain the Victory "in Christ", is based only in the Spiritual mind of Right Believing.
    The Spiritual mind is the mind of Christ, that is "renewed". Romans 12:2
    And when you have this mind, you have stopped "walking in the flesh" ...and this means that the sinning and repenting issue you have, will cease.
    "if you walk in the Spirit (Right MIND) you will not sin"..."not commit works of the Flesh"

    So, what is the GOAL that God has given you that you are to attain on earth by becoming zero flesh and all Spiritual Mind?
    Its this...>"the PRIZE of the High Calling of God in Christ".
    Now notice where this "prize" is located. Its located "in Christ".
    The "high calling" is to arrive to one simple thing...
    "The fullness of the Stature of Christ". Ephesians 4:13
    That is where you are supposed to EXIT in REAL FAITH that is RIGHT BELIEVING.
    If you are worrying about 1 John 1:9, and repenting, then you are definitely not there, are you.

    And what is that Prize that is the ARRIVAL of this fullness of the Stature of Jesus? Its this place of Spirituality. Galatians 2:20
    "it is not I who live, but CHRIST Who lives IN ME"..
    That is where you are to be....to exist, as that is the PRIZE for every believer to come into, on EARTH, by Right Believing.

    Right Believing is to exist in the Mind of Christ, which is to Walk in the Spirit.
    This is not repenting and confessing and doing it wrong for 40 yrs.
    This is not to worry about losing your salvation and obsess on commandments for 50 yrs.
    See, that stuff is YOUR MIND, and that is carnal, walking in the flesh.
    What is Carnal?
    Everything that isn't God's mind or God's perspective.
    Its the Human point of view, the HUMAN reasoning, the HUMAN secular understanding that tries to understand all things of GOD by the HUMAN comprehension point of view.
    And that is not possible , tho many try it and to prove it you have 42,000 denominations instead of one "body of Christ" who all believe right.
    You cannot understand God or understand God's Grace, or understand how to please God, by your opinion, or your reasoning power or your carnal mind.

    Saint....God exists in the Spiritual Realm. God is A Spirit. And we who have been born again into God's Spirit, must learn how to exist in a "like" mind. The mind of Christ. ='"walking in the Spirit".

    How do you start?

    Its just 3 simple things you have to BELIEVE.. and once you really believe them......and not just understand them to be true.......understand?
    When you leave the "i see that"...and enter the "I TRUST THAT", realm, then you have Rightly Believed.

    Here they are..

    1. Based only on the blood of Jesus, you are always kept in perfect PEACE with God, at all times, no matter what you do. Romans 5:1

    2. Your Salvation is a Gift from God to you, and you will never be parted from it. Not ever, for any reason. Romans 5:17

    3. All your sin is forgiven. Past, present, future. Colossians 2:13

    So, Saint, depending on how far you are from believing those 3 simple Spiritual truths is exactly how far you have to go in your walk of Faith to please God with Real Faith in Christ, which then will become your REST from SELF...= and your entrance into the place of perfected Discipleship. The right MIND....."walking in the Spirit" "in Christ".
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2020
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  2. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Of course the PROBLEM is that this heresy intentionally ignores
    the Biblical PROMISE that NO MAN will seek God, no, not even one.


    Romans 1 and 2 explain that reality and Romans 3 concludes with
    the biblical PROMISE that NO MAN will seek God.


    Therefore God had to "elect" or "chose" who He would save before
    the foundation of the earth. NOT based on anything that person
    would do, but ONLY on His Good Pleasure.


    Then, at some point during that person's life, God would "draw"
    that person to Christ and they would becomes saved for eternity.


    Can SOME MEN "trust"... yes, but only those God "elected"
    Can SOME MEN "believe"... yes, but only those God "elected".
    Can SOME MEN "have faith"... yes but only those God "elected"


    So the Bible can righteously say "whosoever believes..."
    because the Bible ALSO says ONLY the "elect" can believe.


    What does it mean to "believe" or "trust" or "have faith"?
    It means you understand how righteous God is and how
    depraved you are and how much you DESERVE to go to
    hell... and there is NOTHING you can do about it.


    It means you "trust" or "believe" or "have faith" that it is
    GOD ALONE that can save you... and that decision was made
    before the foundation of the earth.


    Are you "elect"... who can say? Your "fruit" will show it.
    But you cannot BECOME elect by deciding to do any work...


    That includes deciding to "believe" or "trust" or have "faith"...
    because REAL trust/faith/believe does NOT come from MAN,
    it is a GIFT OF GOD.


    Eph 2:8-9
    For by grace are ye saved through faith;
    and that [faith is] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Not of works, lest any man should boast.


    Anyone who tells you that you can generate trust/belief/faith
    "of yourself" is LYING to you, they follow the BOASTER'S GOSPEL.
    The "Boaster's Gospel" says that MAN is sovereign in salvation, that
    even though the Bible says men are spiritually DEAD, and NO MAN
    will ever seek God (on His terms) they teach man has just enough
    life left in them to generate some "trust/faith/belief"... and God will
    then SEE that good "work" the man has done and is OBLIGATED
    to save that person.


    That is the heresy of the BOASTER'S GOSPEL.
    Then they go out into the world and teach that other men
    can SAVE THEMSELVES just like they did. Total heresy.


    '
     
  3. TibiasDad

    TibiasDad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Rom 3:9What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10As it is written:“There is no one righteous, not even one; 11there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

    Romans does not say that no one will seek God in a verbatim manner; it says that all mankind is equal under the power of sin in that it keeps us all, Jew and Gentile alike from being able to do so of our own accord. Scripture is full of examples of men, Job, Enoch and Noah for example, that worshipped God rightly, but this was not does outside of God's gracious actions to reveal himself to these and other examples. God's grace must always precede any possible seeking of God!

    Doug
     
  4. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    That seems like a pretty "verbatim" statement there:
    "There is NONE righteous, not even one" and then
    "there is NO ONE who understands;" and then
    "there is NONE that seeks God"


    I cannot imagine how we could sneak in "some men seek"
    anywhere in that passage.


    Romans DOES say VERBATIM that "there is NONE that seeks
    after God
    " You just cannot get MORE verbatim than that.


    Of course this is "as it was written"... so Paul is quoting the OT
    which teaches the same thing.


    Psa 14:2-3
    The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
    to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
    They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy:
    there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


    Psa 53:2-3
    God looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
    to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
    Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy;
    there is none that doeth good, no, not one.



    Romans DOES say VERBATIM that "there is NONE that seeks
    after God
    " You just cannot get MORE verbatim than that.


    Do not get me wrong:
    I agree that all mankind (Jew and Gentile) is included in that
    statement. No Jew will seek God (unless "drawn") and no
    Gentile will seek God (unless "drawn").


    This is because men are born spiritually DEAD and are slaves
    in Satan's "Kingdom"... they have a sin nature that WANT to sin.
    They cannot, they are not capable of, ever making a move toward
    God unless/until He first "draws" them... and then ALL will come,
    and Christ will lose NONE of them.


    Doug.. I just cannot see HOW you could ever get "some seek"
    into the OT passages or Romans 3. If you think you can then
    make your best case... I do not think the language allows it.



    Of course I agree about Job and Enoch and Noah and Abraham...
    but (as you indicated) they did not seek God on their own, they
    were "drawn" by God.


    Again this gets down to a very basic and essential doctrine that
    after Adam rebeled all his offspring were born spiritually DEAD
    and no more capable of making a move toward God than
    Lazarus was capable of rising on his own.


    Lazarus is a PICTURE of all men. We are spiritually DEAD.
    We "stinketh", there is nothing (spiritually) alive in us. The fact
    that cannot be overlooked or diminished is we are SLAVES within
    the "Kingdom of Satan"... Satan HAS a "Kingdom" since Adam
    decided to follow him instead of God. All men are born into
    Satan's "Kingdom"... such a fundamental element.


    That is why we must be translated from DEATH into LIFE
    when we are "born again". We cannot just WILL ourselves
    from death into life... that takes an ACTION from God.


    In order to make a move toward God, we (like Lazarus) need
    to be given the EARS to hear His call. We need to be given the
    DESIRE and the STRENGTH to respond to that call. Only then
    can we make a move toward God. Moreover... EVERY MAN
    who is called (in that manner) "shall come" to Christ, and
    He will lose NONE of "His Sheep".


    So... if you can make a (Biblical) case that DEAD men are not
    really DEAD, they still have some LIFE left in them, they are not
    REALLY slaves in Satan's "Kingdom", they're in limbo somewhere,
    then please make your BEST case (from Scripture) I just don't see it.


    Jim
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
  5. TibiasDad

    TibiasDad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You fail to take the context that Paul sets these verbatim remarks (to, for the sake of argument, accept your belief that it is indeed verbatim) , namely,

    "Rom 3:9What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin."

    The incapacity of seeking and doing good is only true in the total absence of God's grace going before. But, As Paul made clear to the Athenians in Acts 17:24-28, everything that God has done from the creation forward, was for the expressed purpose that "men would seek him, and, perhaps, reach out for him and find him." The grace of God going before , even before the fall, ensures that when the truth of God is exposed to a human heart, by whatever means, the heart will be able to respond, to inquire about, to seek after that which is offered.

    But this is not possible by man's own ability, it is only possible because of what God has done from the beginning of creation forward. Man, under the control of sin and without God's deliberate involvement, can do nothing.


    Abraham and Noah were approached by God. Job and Enoch are simply recorded as walking faithfully with God, with no other details about how that came to be. Noah too is spoken of in this manner, but with a bit of further information about God's perspective of him. In contrast to the wickedness of mankind in general, scripture says, "But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord." (Gen 6 :8), why God found favor, is stated in the next verse:

    This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. (Gen 6:9)

    Mankind was wicked in God's eyes, and he wanted to destroy them, but Noah was different, he was righteous, blameless among his fellow humans, and walked faithfully with God. Now remember, this is long before the Law and any specific instructions on morality, and yet, like Cain and Able before him, and Job after him, he had some clue as to the means of worshiping God through sacrificial altars, and even some awareness regarding clean and unclean animals centuries before the Levitical law was given. (Gen 8:20),

    All that I am saying is that these men were capable of grasping the reality and presence of God when God approached them and responding in a positive manner. I think all men, under similar circumstances would be able to do the same, if only the would follow the leading of the truth that was presented to them.

    Doug
     
  6. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    No, I do not "fail to see the context" and I agree to the statement.
    I do not see HOW that negates anything in verses 10-12. In fact,
    I would argue the statement in v9 only affirms v10-12 apply to
    ALL MEN (both Jew and Gentile)



    But, of course, I agree with that statement since
    NO MAN can come unless they are "drawn"... and
    ALL MEN that are drawn "shall come".



    Again I agree. But that has to harmonize with ALL RELATED
    passages. We see in Romans 1 and 2 that God MADE mankind
    so that they would KNOW that He exists and, therefore, they are
    "without excuse" for not seeking Him. But that reality is PART
    of Paul's summary (in Romans 3) that NO MAN will seek Him.

    Rev 3:20
    Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice,
    and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him,
    and he with me.

    We see the same in the teachings of Jesus above. These, like the
    statements of Paul to the Athenians are absolutely True. However,
    they still must be harmonized with ALL RELATED Scriptures that
    teach that NO MAN will open the door unless elect... because
    ONLY "His sheep" are able to "hear My voice".



    Absolutely untrue. You have NO SCRIPTURE that teaches that.
    All Scripture that teaches that "the heart will be able to respond"
    is LIMITED to the heart of the elect. Those who were NOT elected
    cannot possibly respond because (a) they are DEAD... dead men
    cannot respond and (b) they are in "Satan's Kingdom". They are
    CAPTIVE until God "draws" them and translates them from death
    into life.

    I see your statement above to be a complete and total rejection
    of the Gospel that DEAD men are unable to respond (until "drawn").
    So, while the Gospel "call" goes out into the world of DEAD men,
    NONE of them will respond unless they are "chosen".

    Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

    MANY are called ["called" by the preaching of the Gospel]
    FEW are chosen ["chosen" or "elected" to be saved]



    And so there is your contradiction. First you say that "the heart
    is able to respond" and then you say this is only possible with the
    "Grace" of God or "God's deliberate involvement".

    What on earth does that mean?
    Just speak plainly and say NO MAN can come... unless they
    are "drawn" by God, and then ALL MEN "shall come".

    When you couch your message in words that SOUND like men
    are ABLE to respond and then (you insinuate that is only possible
    by the Grace of God) that leaves the MESSAGE that men can come
    because of the Grace of God.

    While TECHNICALLY that is Biblical... PRACTICALLY it is deceptive.
    Because it HIDES behind words about "grace" instead of just
    plainly preaching that NO MAN can respond UNLESS...

    With all due respect, I find that kind of presentation of the Gospel
    to be so "lukewarm" and "mushy" and "deceptive" that I can see
    NO GOOD to that presentation... few men (if any) can HEAR the
    Gospel Truth in that kind of presentation... even trained ears have
    a hard time distinguishing what your REALLY said from a gospel
    that ALL MEN can respond. Again, I say this with due respect.



    So we agree on this account. Pre-Flood Saints were "drawn"
    by God BEFORE they "walked with God". The Bible does not
    give us a lot of information about this but we can be sure that
    NONE of the Pre-Flood Saints (Jewish Saints or Christian Saints)
    ever were able to "seek God" without being "drawn" by God first.

    This fact only supports what I have been saying and said above.
    This fact only supports Paul's words that NO MAN seeks God,
    no, not even one.



    I do not disagree with any of that.
    As said before, Romans 1 and 2 are clear that God MADE MAN
    in such a way as to KNOW He exists, therefore, they are all
    "without excuse".

    And (I hope we can agree) that Noah was righteous BECAUSE
    God "elected" Him and NOT because of anything He did of
    himself.



    But of course, that is the KEY.
    Those men were able to respond because God "drew" them.
    Jewish Saints were able to respond when God "drew" them.
    Christian Saints respond because God "drew" them.

    What is the common thread with ALL THE SAINTS in history?
    They were all "chosen" or "elected" before the foundation of
    the earth and, sometime during their life, God "drew" them
    to Himself.

    So what WE ARE BOTH really saying...
    Is the Atonement was "particular" to those God "elected".
    Since ONLY those God "elected" are drawn and ONLY those
    God "elected" respond. In EACH "Kingdom of Heaven".

    You see... you do not REALLY believe in Universal Atonement
    at all. Otherwise you would not have to couch the fact that
    man's response is subject to God "drawing" them.

    Furthermore, you accept a Pre-Flood Kingdom and a separate
    Jewish Kingdom and a separate Christian Kingdom... now I just
    need to get you to understand the Great Tribulation "Kingdom"
    is separate also [Mat 25:1]. Then you will be able to see that
    the history of mankind is a REFLECTION of God's salvation plan
    over four (temporal) "Kingdoms of Heaven" before the Lord
    Returns to establish the (5th) ETERNAL "Kingdom of Heaven".


    Jim
     
  7. TibiasDad

    TibiasDad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It doesn't negate it, it sets the boundaries under which the aspects of verses 10-12 is spoken of as true, for we have many examples of men who not only sought God but faithfully walked with God!

    Doug
     
  8. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Yes Doug... but EACH and EVERY one of them was "elect"

    We have NO EXAMPLE of any person in history that "seeks God"
    unless they were "elected" before the foundation of the world.

    So your premise has no actual example of ever happening.
    It's a theory with no evidence in Scripture.


    Jim
     
  9. TibiasDad

    TibiasDad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And what other message is there but that we are only saved "by grace, through faith". Because of the Grace of God we are able to be forgiven, and thus saved by means of placing faith in his Graciousness!

    There is no contradiction, only a cause and effect relationship!

    Doug
     
  10. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    You said:
    And what other message is there but that we are only saved "by grace, through faith". Because of the Grace of God we are able to be forgiven, and thus saved by means of placing faith in his Graciousness!

    --------

    Please tell me,
    Does the word "we" (above) include ANYONE not "chosen"
    before the foundation of the world.

    If your answer is NO...
    then your theory about some "opportunity" to all men
    is proven wrong.

    Jim
     
  11. TibiasDad

    TibiasDad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Again, the doctrine of Election is not in evidence, and thus, using it as a foundation of your argument is assuming something is proven, which creates circular reasoning. My arguments, of which you seem to largely agree, merely assert that man is always inadequate to fulfill his needs by means of himself and indeed, cannot because his need is God himself and only God can offer himself, only God can offer forgiveness for offences against him. And these are things that man cannot control, manipulate, or deserve, but must simply recognize as God's gracious extention of his desire for reconciliation with his creation.

    Doug
     
  12. TibiasDad

    TibiasDad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No, but that doesn't preclude my belief from being true. The question is not if we are chosen, but rather the basis of God's choice. The scriptures indicate that God has chosen to accept all who believe; and God will turn away no man who comes to him in faith. That opportunity is for every sinner everywhere. No, most do not believe, but that is their own choice, not God's. God chose to choose all who believe, he does not choose who believes!

    Doug
     
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