1 Thess. 4:14 "them also which sleep in Jesus"

[DeaconDean]

I have been faulted in my belief and conviction that the "rapture" takes place before the "tribulation".

One member cites this verse:

"εἰ γὰρ πιστεύομεν ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ἀπέθανεν καὶ ἀνέστη, οὕτως καὶ ὁ θεὸς τοὺς κοιμηθέντας διὰ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ ἄξει σὺν αὐτῷ." -1 Thess. 4:14 (GNT)

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." -1 Thess. 4:14 (KJV)

It has been suggested that this action happens at the end of the tribulation period because Jesus brings with him, those that have died before.

John Gill, theologian, comments:

"even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The saints that are dead are not only represented as asleep, as before, but as "asleep in Jesus"; to distinguish them from the other dead, the wicked; for the phrase of sleeping in death is promiscuously used of good and bad, though most commonly applied to good men: and so say the Jews F3,

``we used to speak of just men, not as dead, but as sleeping; saying, afterwards such an one fell asleep, signifying that the death of the righteous is nothing else than a sleep.''


To represent death as a sleep makes it very easy and familiar; but it is more so, when it is considered as sleeping in Jesus, in the arms of Jesus; and such as are asleep in him must needs be at rest, and in safety: some join the phrase "in", or "by Jesus", with the word bring, and read the passage thus, "them that are asleep, by Jesus will God bring with him"; intimating, that God will raise up the dead bodies of the saints by Christ, as God-man and Mediator; and through him will bring them to eternal glory, and save them by him, as he has determined: others render the words, "them which sleep through", or "by Jesus"; or die for his sake, and so restrain them to the martyrs; who they suppose only will have part in the first resurrection, and whom God will bring with Jesus at his second coming; but the coming of Christ will be "with all his saints"; see ( 1 Thessalonians 3:13 ) wherefore they are best rendered, "them that sleep in Jesus"; that is, "in the faith of Jesus", as the Arabic version renders it: not in the lively exercise of faith on Christ, for this is not the case of all the saints at death; some of them are in the dark, and go from hence under a cloud, and yet go safe, and may be said to die, or sleep, in Jesus, and will be brought with him; but who have the principle, and hold the doctrine of faith, are, and live and die, true believers; who die interested in Christ, in union with him, being chosen and blessed, and preserved in him from everlasting, and effectually called by his grace in time, and brought to believe in him; these, both their souls and bodies, are united to Christ, and are his care and charge; and which union remains in death, and by virtue of it the bodies of the saints will be raised at the last day: so that there may be the strongest assurance, that such will God bring with him; either God the Father will bring them with his Son, or Jehovah the Son will bring them with himself; he will raise them from the dead, and unite them to their souls, or spirits, he will bring with him; the consideration of which may serve greatly to mitigate and abate sorrow for deceased friends."

F3 Shebet Juda, p. 294. Ed. Gent.

Source

This fits accordingly with Paul's previous statement:

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." -2 Cor. 5:8 (KJV)

Unless your an advocate of "soul-sleep". In which case, you don't belong in this area.

But, perhaps as some have suggested, I don't know what I'm talking about. Hum...

Lets examine this from the Greek.

To add to the above commentary, I submit:

Greek Word Order in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–5:11

Which would logically mean, Gill was at least correct.

If a believer dies "in Christ" or "in the faith of Christ", based on what Paul says also in 2 Cor. 5:8, we have to accept that where it says:

"even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." All the saints that have died in the faith of Christ, who have gone on to be with the Lord until the "catching up" "catching away" "rapture", are those saints who are with Him already, who He brings with Him, to be reunited with the bodies, to have them (their body) regenerated prior to those that are alive and remain.

Thusly:

"Topic Level 2 (14e), begun by the recitative "ὅτι", contains three preverbal elements. The constituent "ὁ θεὸς" is obviously old information since God is already known and the noun is articular. Thus, it makes sense to take this as a topical point of departure. The substantival participle "τοὺς κοιμηθέντας"also is old information because it appears in 4:13 (τῶν κοιμωμένων,), and it also is articular. Therefore, this is a topical point of departure as well.51 As suggested by Lambrecht, when there are two topics in a clause, the rest of the clause is meant to explain the relationship between them.52 In this case Paul himself makes it very obvious what this relationship is, for he adds another preverbal element: " διὰ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ".53 While "Ἰησοῦ" is indeed old information, here it is being applied in a new way with the preposition "διὰ", and this phrase is a marked focal element. Therefore, the most important aspect of the relationship between God and the sleeping ones in this clause is that it is "through Jesus." He is the agent, since God does what he does for dead Christians "διὰ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ".

51) Of all the commentaries I examined, only Fee, Thessalonians, 171-172, commented on the placement of the participle. He suggests that "Paul "fronts" the direct object...since that is the singular concern throughout. Using my terminology, he seems to understand the constituent as a marked focal element.

52 See Lambrecht, Information Structure, 147-148.

53 However, see Levinsohn, "Some Notes," 23, who takes the prepositional phrase as modifying "τοὺς κοιμηθέντας" and so that the entire construction acts as a marked focal element: "the ones sleeping through Jesus."

Ibid, p. 19

Here again, I know, I know as soon as I hit the post button, this will come under fire.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Well, DD, how is this relevant?

It enhances the pre-trib view.

Lets take the oppositions verses for example.

If you accept what they say, you have no recourse than to say Paul wrote "tongue-in-cheek" or BTW.

Oh, by the way, when He is revealed...

However, in the proof texts:

"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" -2 Thess. 1:7-8 (KJV)

And:

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" -2 Thess. 2:1-8 (KJV)

And I must add:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." -Rev. 19:11-21 (KJV)

It has been pointed out by me previously that "angels" (that must be who they are in Acts 1:11) say that you saw Him go, He will return the same way.

1)There is no indication in Acts that Jesus ascended up "in flaming fire, or sitting on a white horse". I have said that over and over.

2) According to 2 Thess 1:7, it says "mighty angels". Where in scripture are believers called "angels"?

3) Where in scriptures are we told we (believers) will be part of the Lord's "armies"?

If Paul wrote the Thessalonian church what he did in 1 Thess. 4:13-18, then came back in his 2nd epistle and wrote "Oh, by the way, when Jesus is revealed", why isn't the same clause/parentheses used in the parallel passage in 1 Corinthians 15?

And how do you reconcile Rev. 3:10:

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

If you look also at the word "wrath", it is not mentioned until Rev. 6:16.

From a strictly Greek usage, agro, is always used as a noun. And in at least one place, it is used as an adverbial modifying a noun.

An example would be the word "house". Even though it is a noun, it can be used as a adjective to describe a particular place.

What is important here is to look at scripture. I don't care what your particular view is on the tribulation. But it is important to know that after Rev. 6:15, scriptures there tell us what follows is God's wrath.

It is particularly to the point here:

"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" -Rev. 6:17 (KJV)

And again, in Rev. 16, we see an even more terrible event revealed. The pouring out of God's wrath in the "Bowl Judgements".

Now I will also freely admit, that the ultimate "wrath of God" comes upon those who have to spend an eternity in the "Lake of Fire".

But, as shown previously, the wrath of God begins with the opening of the "seven seals" of Revelation 6.

Paul told us:

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," -1 Thess. 5:9 (KJV)

Many people believe that this verse is in reference to our "initial" salvation. When we first are saved. This eliminates us from the "ultimate wrath of God in the Lake of Fire".

I'm not saying that is not true.

But when Paul also says:

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." -1 Thess. 1:10 (KJV)

This opens the door for the "rapture" where the dead "in Christ" are resurrected, and the church is taken out.

You absolutely cannot close the door on that possibility.

Christians will not endure that time when God's wrath is revealed as recorded in Revelation.

And once again, to say otherwise means that a person would have to accept the view that not only was Paul wrong in 1 Thess. 1:10, that Christians will suffer right along with the unsaved, but it also means somehow, the scriptures are in error.

A simple reading of the context between Rev. 6, and Rev. 11 shows us that at best, nearly half, or over half of the total world's population will die before the anti-Christ, false prophet, and the beast are even revealed.

Let alone that in the scriptures, there is absolutely no distinction made between who is, and who isn't saved/a Christian.

To adhere to a "Post-Trib" view, a "Post-Trib" rapture means that other than being saved from the Lake of Fire, Christians and unsaved, are treated the same, from the scriptures and God's P.O.V.

If there is a "post-trib" rapture, you most sincere prayer should be to be counted among those who:

"And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." Console yourself that you be counted among the 25% that die when the 4th seal is broken, so you don't have to endure even worsening conditions that are "yet to come".

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Hank77]

2) According to 2 Thess 1:7, it says "mighty angels". Where in scripture are believers called "angels"?

I agree with you that the angels in 2 Thess. 1:7 are indeed heavenly angels, that were never men.
But because you asked....
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel [G32] of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.[a heavenly messenger, not a man]

But we can clearly see that there are times men are called angels/messengers from God.
Mat 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger [G32] before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

ἄγγελος,, ὁ,
1. a messenger, envoy, one who is sent: Matthew 11:10; Luke 7:24, 27; Luke 9:52; Mark 1:2; James 2:25. (From Homer down.)
2. In the Scriptures, both of the Old Testament and of the New Testament, one of that host of heavenly spirits that, according alike to Jewish and Christian opinion, wait upon the monarch of the universe, and are sent by him to earth, now to execute his purposes.
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

 

[DeaconDean]

Wrath, a subject that "Post-Tribbers" ignore.

In a real sense, Paul makes it clear that God's wrath is revealed now:

"For the wrath "ὀργὴ" of God is revealed "Ἀποκαλύπτεται" from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;" -Rom. 1:18 (KJV)

3rd person, singular, present passive, indicative.

"it" (wrath) is currently being revealed.

We can also show that "wrath" from Paul's usage, can also be stored up.

"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath," -Rom. 2:5-8 (KJV)

For certain, there are/is a "wrath" or "wraths" coming.

In this current time, we may occasionally incur wrath when ( and I know somebody is going to object) we sin. I'm not speaking of deliberate/willful sinning, but the occasional slip ups we all have a tendency to do.

This may cost us blessings, etc.

But I'm talking of "wrath" as mentioned in the book of Revelation.

As shown in my previous post, God's "wrath" "ergo" is revealed from Rev. 6:16 onwards.

And here again, the Post-trib view, now matter how you review it, has "Christians" enduring God's wrath right along side the unsaved.

And here again, from the Greek, we see "ergo" "wrath" as revealed previously.

"καὶ λέγουσιν τοῖς ὄρεσιν καὶ ταῖς πέτραις, Πέσετε ἐφ' ἡμᾶς καὶ κρύψατε ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ προσώπου τοῦ καθημένου ἐπὶ τοῦ θρόνου καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς ὀργῆς τοῦ ἀρνίου," -Rev. 6:16 (GNT)

Make no mistake dear reader, this what its all about. Wrath, although different from what awaits in the Lake of Fire, but true "righteous wrath" that only God has.

The fruit of Post-trib" is, was, always will be, Christians will have to, no way to avoid it, endure God's righteous wrath right along with the unsaved, unrepentant. Period. No ifs, no buts, no nothing.

To what good, even from God's standpoint, is it, to beat a misbehaving child, then turn right around and get them a toy?

You could say the flood was one instance of God's wrath, but the better viewpoint is one of judgment. And even then, there was a provision by God for Noah and his family to escape it.

Even during the "Captivity" not all of Israel was carried away captive. Hosea and Amos are two examples where God's chosen, did not have to endure it.

But according to Post-trib theology, one would have to conclude logically, that we are in an even worse condition than Noah or Hosea, or Amos.

Spared from the wrath to come. That was Paul's message. He wrote that to the church in Thessalonica.

John told the church at Philadelphia they would be saved from the hour of temptation.

But not us.

I just cannot accept it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

I agree with you that the angels in 2 Thess. 1:7 are indeed heavenly angels, that were never men.
But because you asked....
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel [G32] of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.[a heavenly messenger, not a man]

But we can clearly see that there are times men are called angels/messengers from God.
Mat 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger [G32] before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

ἄγγελος,, ὁ,
1. a messenger, envoy, one who is sent: Matthew 11:10; Luke 7:24, 27; Luke 9:52; Mark 1:2; James 2:25. (From Homer down.)
2. In the Scriptures, both of the Old Testament and of the New Testament, one of that host of heavenly spirits that, according alike to Jewish and Christian opinion, wait upon the monarch of the universe, and are sent by him to earth, now to execute his purposes.
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

One point, angels are indeed messengers, that I will not dispute. And men can be called messengers.

The reference in Mt. 11:10, here again, has to be taken in "context".

Jesus speaks of John the Baptist as the forerunner of Him, the "messenger" sent "to prepared the way".

Men are never referenced to in scriptures as "angels". Messenger, yes, angel, no.

But I'm not going to debate that point, I'm saying is the two men clothed in white in Acts 1:11, were angels that brought a message.

Now comes another point, would an "angel" that is sent by God lie?

If they did, they were not "angels". They would have been demons, because even satan cn appear as an angel of light.

So, in light of that, did Jesus ascend up "In flaming fire taking vengeance" or did Jesus ascend up sitting/riding upon "a white horse"?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Hank77]

Men are never referenced to in scriptures as "angels". Messenger, yes, angel, no.

The scriptures were not written in English, in the Greek 'angelos' is the same for both. It is the context that tells us whether that word means heavenly angel messengers of God, or men who were messengers of God. Most times it is very clear but a few times it is not so clear.

So, in light of that, did Jesus ascend up "In flaming fire taking vengeance" or did Jesus ascend up sitting/riding upon "a white horse"?

Neither. Frankly, I never heard anyone say that He did.

 

[DeaconDean]

Neither. Frankly, I never heard anyone say that He did.

Here again, Acts 1:9-11 is the antecedent.

What is said there, is absent in 2 Thess. 1:7-8; 2 Thess. 2:1-8; Rev. 19:11-21.

In order to accept them as proof of Jesus' second coming, you must ignore Acts 1:9-11, along with other scriptures. (my point)

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

From a strict sense, the Greek always uses a single word when speaking of "man".

"ánthrōpos". "man"

However, as you pointed out, " ággelos" as a general rule, is rendered as:

1. a messenger, envoy, one who is sent: Matthew 11:10; Luke 7:24, 27; Luke 9:52; Mark 1:2; James 2:25.

My usage in Acts 1:11, is the same as what is said in both Old and New Testaments:

2. In the Scriptures, both of the Old Testament and of the New Testament, one of that host of heavenly spirits that, according alike to Jewish and Christian opinion, wait upon the monarch of the universe, and are sent by him to earth, now to execute his purposes (Matthew 4:6, 11; Matthew 28:2; Mark 1:13; Luke 16:22; Luke 22:43 (L brackets WH reject the passage); Acts 7:35; ; Galatians 3:19, cf. Hebrews 1:14), now to make them known to men (Luke 1:11, 26; Luke 2:9ff; Acts 10:3; Acts 27:23; Matthew 1:20; Matthew 2:13; Matthew 28:5; John 20:12f)

Source

However, while I admit that on occasion, as in the case of John the Baptist, forerunner to Christ, scriptures make the reference to him as a messenger.

And, saying that, we also have to admit, that our usage and after Acts 7, the Greek word changed when applied to certain people.

The basic meaning of "apostle" has been:

"ἀπόστολος"

1. a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders.

However, when applied to the twelve, the meaning changes:

2. Specially applied to the twelve disciples whom Christ selected, out of the multitude of his adherents, to be his constant companions and the heralds to proclaim to men the kingdom of God: Matthew 10:1-4; Luke 6:13; Acts 1:26; Revelation 21:14, and often, but nowhere in the Gospel and Epistles of John; ("the word ἀπόστολος occurs 79 times in the N. T., and of these 68 instances are in St. Luke and St. Paul." Lightfoot). With these apostles Paul claimed equality, because through a heavenly intervention he had been appointed by the ascended Christ himself to preach the gospel among the Gentiles, and owed his knowledge of the way of salvation not to man's instruction but to direct revelation from Christ himself, and moreover had evinced his apostolic qualifications by many signal proofs: Galatians 1:1, 11; Galatians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 1:17; 1 Corinthians 9:1; 1 Corinthians 15:8-10; 2 Corinthians 3:2ff; 12:12; 1 Timothy 2:7; 2 Timothy 1:11, cf. Acts 26:12-20.

Source

So in knowing this, context absolutely must dictate the proper rendering.

AS in Acts 1:11, these messengers, were not "forerunners". They were however, a "messenger sent forth with orders". But they were not one of the twelve.

So we must therefore conclude that the "messengers" were of the order "of heavenly spirits".

And, being as such, sent by God, with a message to the remaining eleven, I would ask: Would "angels/messengers" lie?

To use Paul's words: "God forbid!"

There message is 100% true. 100% accurate.

Which still leaves us the question:

"Where are we told that Jesus ascended up into heaven, "In flaming fire, taking vengeance", or sitting/riding upon "a white horse"?

As He departed, He must return the same way.

Any other position makes scriptures lie, and it means the "angels/messengers" lie.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

I will also admit, that a majority of my eschatological views are shaped by Acts 1:9-11.

"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

In the Greek, we read:

"καὶ ταῦτα εἰπὼν βλεπόντων αὐτῶν ἐπήρθη, καὶ νεφέλη ὑπέλαβεν αὐτὸν ἀπὸ τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν αὐτῶν. καὶ ὡς ἀτενίζοντες ἦσαν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν πορευομένου αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἰδοὺ ἄνδρες δύο παρειστήκεισαν αὐτοῖς ἐν ἐσθήσεσι λευκαῖς, οἳ καὶ εἶπαν, Ἄνδρες Γαλιλαῖοι, τί ἑστήκατε [ἐμ]βλέποντες εἰς τὸν οὐρανόν; οὗτος ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὁ ἀναλημφθεὶς ἀφ' ὑμῶν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν οὕτως ἐλεύσεται ὃν τρόπον ἐθεάσασθε αὐτὸν πορευόμενον εἰς τὸν οὐρανόν." -Acts 1:9-11 (GNT)

I have always stressed the "ascension". Ascension, although technically correct, is also technically wrong.

The Greek word here is: "ἐπήρθη" which means, "he was taken up".

"Pass. ἐπήρθη, was taken up (of Christ, taken up into heaven), Acts i. 9;"

Source

What is important here, is the "voice" of the word. Notice well that it is in the passive.

For lack of better words on my behalf, what we see is Jesus being lifted up, in a passive manner.

Our Greek word in 1 Thess. 4:16, which describes Jesus' return, is "καταβήσεται":

"3rd person, singular, future, middle deponent, indicative."

The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, Wesley J. Perschabacher, Hendrickson Publishing Company, Peabody, Mass., 01962, Copyright 1990, p.221

Jesus, in this verse, is the one acting on His own behalf.

But, as it should be pointed out, the Greek word "descend" used here, does not "indicate a complete uninterrupted descent" as Robert Guntry advocates. (1)

This point, as well as the Post-Trib view, has to dance around, or remain silence in the face of these verses:

"Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." -Jn. 14:1-3 (KJV)

Another tough piece of scripture to answer is this one:

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." -1 Thess. 4:17 (KJV)

The word to focus on here is "meet". "ἀπάντησις" (apantesis)

This word…[only occurs two] other places in the New Testament…. [In Acts 28:14, 15] we see that the brethren came out to meet Paul. However, the principal actor in the drama, which was Paul in this case, kept going and the people doing the meeting did the reversing of direction, as one would expect.

The only other place this word is used in the Scriptures is in the parable of the bridegroom and ten virgins (Matt 25:1-13). The ten virgins went out to meet the bridegroom. The bridegroom, who was the principal actor in this drama, kept coming, and those doing the meeting reversed course.

If this same usage holds true in 1Thessalonians, then when we meet Christ in the air, He will not reverse course, we will.(2)

Another argument from silence. The scripture says nothing, nothing about us "reversing direction". Only that we will remain with Him forever.

Most would agree that in the context, both Pre-trib and Post-trib adherents, use the 10 virgins as an example. And from a purely technical argument, both side are right. However, as with most scriptures, context must play its part. The parable of the 10 virgins is being told from a Jewish perspective. It is well known that the "Bride" would wait until the Groom went away and prepared their home. Then on the appointed day, return, and take the bride home. Same with the 10 virgins. Of all ten, five sleep, and upon the announcement, go out to meet the Groom, and the others sleep on. The groom takes them home.

Christopher Perdue explains it this way:

"The central theme of this parable is readiness to meet the Lord, as also is much of the previous context. Jesus is called the bridegroom and the church His bride in other passages (2Cor. 11:2; Matt. 9:15; John 3:28-29).

The story, in retrospect, appears to give a brief history of the church as it relates to the expectation of Christ’s coming. The virgins going out to meet the bridegroom is the founding of the church (Matt. 25:1). Since they must wait for Him, not knowing the hour of His coming (25:5; 24:36-51), the rapture is yet future from this point. During the long wait (see 25:19) the virgins fell asleep – probably the nearly 1500 years during which the second coming was spiritualized away. The midnight cry warning of His coming, awakening the sleepers, is the restoration of expectation of the Lord’s coming, most notably in the early 1800’s. Finally, the bridegroom arrives after an additional short wait, coming from His home with His friends (read angels; see Matt. 24:31 and 2Thess 1:7). He gathers the five wise virgins and returns to His home for the wedding celebration as per custom (25:10). In short, when the church meets her Bridegroom, it is He who will reverse direction."(3)

So, in essence, according to Acts 1:9-11, 1 Cor. 15:51-54, 1 Thess. 4:13-18 all show, especially from the Greek, that these passages in no way support the Post-Trib view. Not to mention the two completely different arrivals of Christ as contrasted by 2 Thess. 1-2:8; and Rev. 19:11-21.


(1) The church and the Tribulation, Robert Gundry: Zondervan, 1973, p.103

(2) James McKeever: Omega Publications, pp 96-97

(3) Some Problems with the Post-tribulation Rapture Theory

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Another "hot issue" with eschatology is: The Olivet Discourse (Mt. 24)

Lets start with this verse:

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" -Mt. 24:3 (KJV)

In the Greek:

"Καθημένου δὲ αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τοῦ Ὄρους τῶν Ἐλαιῶν προσῆλθον αὐτῷ οἱ μαθηταὶ κατ' ἰδίαν λέγοντες, Εἰπὲ ἡμῖν πότε ταῦτα ἔσται, καὶ τί τὸ σημεῖον τῆς σῆς παρουσίας καὶ συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος." -Mt. 24:3 (GNT)

Here, this might also add fuel to the fire as far as the KJV Only debaters. But the is not the point.

Here is an instance, where while technically correct, it is also technically wrong.

A literal rendering of the Greek would be:

"sitting and he on the mount of the olives came up to him the disciples privately, saying, tell us, when these things will be; and what the sign of your presence and of the termination of the age?"

Now how the KJ Translators got "world" from "age" is a good question. But that isn't the issue.

Debate, especially from JW's, is always based on the rendering of the Greek word "aion".

Aion means simply:

"αἰών, (ῶνος, ὁ (as if Αιε — poetic for ἀεί — ὤν, so teaches Aristotle, de caelo 1, 11, 9, vol. i., p. 279{a} 27; (so Proclus book iv. in Plato, Timaeo, p. 241; and others); but more probable is the conjecture (cf. Etym. Magn. 41, 11) that αἰών is so connected with ἄημι to breathe, blow, as to denote properly that which causes life, vital force; cf. Harless on Ephesians 2:2). (But αἰών ( = αἰϝών) is now generally connected with αἰεί, ἀεί, Sanskrit evas (aivas), Latinaevum, Goth. aivs, German ewig, English aye, ever; cf. Curtius, § 585; Fick, Part i., p. 27; Vanicek, p. 79; Benfey, Wurzellex, i., p. 7f; Schleicher, Compend. edition 2, p. 400; Pott, Etymologicum Forsch., edition 2, 2:2, p. 442; Ebeling, Lex. Homer under the word; Liddell and Scott, under the word ἀεί; Cremer, edd, 2, 3 ,4 (although in edition 1 he agreed with Prof. Grimm); Pott and Fick, however, connect it with Sanskrit ayus rather than evas, although both these forms are derived from i to go (see Pott, Sehleicher, Fick, Vanicek, as above).) In Greek authors:

1. age (Latinaevum, which is αἰών with the Aeolic digamma), a human lifetime (in Homer, Herodotus, Pindar, Tragic poets), life itself (Homer Iliad 5, 685 με καί λίποι αἰών etc.).

2. an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity, (Plato, Tim., p. 37 d. 38 a.; Tim. Locr., p. 97 d. (quoted below); Plutarch, others). With this signification the Hebrew and rabbinical idea of the word עולָם (of which in the Sept. αἰών is the equivalent)"

Source

Hence the questions: does it mean the end of the world as we know it, or does it mean the "end of the age of Grace, or does it mean to point to the signs that mark the end of the world, or age?

It is just my opinon, but "age" defined as "an unspecified length of time" is a better rendering.

And another fact also is that rendering, allows for both a short term and long term meaning.

In the short term, by AD 66, most of the events had happened. The ultimate "sign" was fulfilled 4 years later with the destruction of the Temple. (AD 70)

So in a very real sense, those events have occurred, but near the end of this present age, we'll see them again.

God Bless

Till all are one.