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1 John 3:4-9

Discussion in 'Hamartiology' started by giftofGod2, Sep 5, 2016.

  1. giftofGod2

    giftofGod2 Active Member

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    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins: and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abdieth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin: for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    Looking first at verse 7, let us consider its application in light of Philippians 3:9, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.

    It is clear that there are two types of rightousness in scripture: the righteousness which is of the law and that which is by faith in Jesus Christ. So, when it says in verse 7 of our passage, he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous, what does it mean? How does one do the righteousness of faith?

    2 Corinthians 5:7 says, (For we walk by faith, not by sight: )

    And Romans 4:12 says, And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had yet being uncircumcised.

    Without going into more detail of what the steps of Abraham's faith were, suffice it to say that there is a walk associated with faith, there are actions that result from a living faith, as we walk in those steps.

    So another definition of sin than the one given in our passage (the transgression of the law--verse 4) might be, what we find in Romans 14:23, And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

    And if whatsoever is not of faith is sin, then whatsoever is of faith is not sin; and therefore the key to walking in righteousness would be to do everything in faith. How? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17.

    But what of the first definition given of sin, found in our primary passage? it is said that sin is the transgression of the law.

    Nevertheless according to Romans 4:15, where there is no law there is no transgression, and according to Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19, and Romans 7:6, we as believers are not under the law, are dead to the law, and are delivered from the law. Can we therefore sin? According to 1 John 3:9 the one who is born of God cannot sin; I submit to you the idea that this is because he is delivered from the law and therefore to him it is as if there is no law, and according to Romans 4:15 this would mean that the Christian cannot transgress the law and therefore cannot sin.

    Nevertheless if you look carefully at the passage, you will surely see that much of it is speaking of practical sin. So can we really say that I can go ahead and sin and it won't really be a sin because I am not under the law? Or is there a certain sense in which 1 John 3:4-9 is speaking of how Jesus will deal with your sins practically, by removing the practice of them from your life, by setting you free from the hold that they may have upon your life?

    I believe that if you can first understand that you are forgiven, and that therefore the law does not apply to you in condemnation, and no longer has even the power to call you a sinner if you are in Christ; that from that point of view there can be a certain leaving of those things which the law calls sin, for the fact that as one in Christ you are spiritually minded and not because you are bound by the requirement to keep it.

    Being set free from the requirement has its way of setting one free of the things that the requirement is against: if you study it out in Romans 7 I believe you will see that to be set free from the law is to be set free from the sin that the law exposes, even in the practical sense, even as it is written, For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    The righteousness of faith translates into the righteousness of the law being fulfilled in us, because we walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. See Romans 8:3-4.

    Therefore if we walk according to faith 24/7, I most certainy believe that we will also not be sinning according to the same time spectrum.

    Somewhere in the Psalms it is written concerning the wicked that "God is not in all his thoughts." Therefore to have faith in my heart is to have God always in my thoughts. If I put the thought of what I am going to get at the grocery store on the frontburner of my thoughts, I need to make sure that the though of God is still simmering on the backburner. This is faith: a 24/7 relationship with Jesus Christ where He is never out of sight but the thought of Him is always on the stove burning somewhere, whether on the frontburner, (as when we are in church worshipping Him or hearing His word) or on the backburner (as when we are consciously aware of His presence in the mundane, everyday detalis of life).
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
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  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    There is "the rub".

    And of course Romans 3:19-21 tells us that the LAW of God condemns all mankind - "under the Law" -- "every mouth close" all accountable to God. "Under the Law" = "Under the condemnation of the Law"

    Yet Romans 6 says not to sin - even though we are not under the law (under the condemnation of the law").

    Thus it is still wrong for Christians to 'take God's name in vain' --- even in the NT.

    Romans 8:4-9 says that the wicked "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they"
     
  3. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Hi BobRyan, I was giftofGod2 before, I am justbyfaith now.

    I just wanted to say, Of course.

    There is a reality to the fact that we are both not under the law (Romans 6:14) and also under the law to Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21).

    What this means to me is that the law doesn't have the power to condemn us anymore from the outside as being written on tablets of stone, but now it governs us from the inside as being written on fleshy tablets of human hearts.
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Exactly! :)
     
  5. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    Where do you get this "under the condemnation of the law" from? It is not Scripture at least in this and other verses in Romans.
    No it does not. The passage is speaking about the carnal flesh and those who follow it instead of the Holy Spirit. Yes there are carnal Christians.

    bugkiller
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    So then you read Romans 3:19-21 or did not read it??
     
  7. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Lifting verses -- there were none in the original manuscripts; they were added many centuries later -- out of context always results in error. Sometimes those errors are serious. Here is what the section of Romans under discussion says...

    "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin

    But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

    The meaning of this section of scripture is perfectly clear. Misinterpretation is almost impossible.
     
  8. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    Sure have. And who is under the condemnation of the law? It is not the Christian.

    There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 8:1

    5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

    6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

    7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

    8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

    9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

    10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; I Tim 1

    Quoted so you will not have to look them up.

    bugkiller
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    So then you read Romans 3:19-21 or did not read it??

    1. That is not a quote of Romans 3:19-21
    2. That is not a quote of Romans 8:5-10

    So let's go to the actual text.

    Rom 3:19-21
    19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

    The term "UNDER the LAW" is specifically speaking of "under condemnation of the LAW" - all the World condemned as sinners --- means all the world NEEDS the Gospel. NEEDs Christ as savior.

    Here then is an obvious Bible detail that I am sure we ALL can admit to.

    Thus Romans 6 "not UNDER the Law" --> "under the condemnation of the LAW" for those who are saved -- YET they are NOT to SIN as Romans 6 states.

    And of course as 1 John 3:4 says "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Amen!

    1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the LAW"


    Romans 6
    What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

    11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

    12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

    15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
     
  11. listed

    listed are you?

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    Who do you think you're talking to here at CF in this part of the forum? The rules are a person must be a Christian. Christians aren't the world. Christians are righteous and don't practice sin as a lifestyle. Bugkiller posted 1 Timothy 1:9 showing the law isn't for the righteous. Paul never calls a Christian the world. You're preaching to the wrong crowd.

    A dead person can't sin. If that is so they can't transgress the law. If there is no transgression the law can't condemn.

    Romans 7:4

    Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

    Galatians 2:19

    For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

    You've already been able to read we're delivered from the law from Romans 7 if that indeed is your point.
     
  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +10,898
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    Like Constantine passed laws, "you must be Catholic" or die (or flee) ?
    That did not created, make, nor cause to be born again anyone,
    even though it was not only the law of the land, and anyone who did not comply
    was under constant threat of exile or imprisonment or death.
     
  13. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    There is no such rule that participants on the Christian forum must be Christians!
     
  14. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In John 5:46, Jesus said that Moses wrote about him, in Luke 24:27, it says that Jesus began with Moses and the Prophets interpreting to them all the things in Scriptures concerning himself, and in Hebrews 10:7, it say that the totality of the scroll is written about him, so it is important to understand that everything in the OT and NT is about Messiah and how to have a relationship with him based on faith, and the one and only way to become righteous that there has ever been is through that faith. So where Israel went wrong, as Paul did in Philippians 3:8-9, is they they had focused on doing what the Bible says to do, but they had lost sight of the fact that the whole purpose of doing those things is to grow in a relationship with Messiah based on faith, so to do those things without knowing Messiah is rubbish.

    In Romans 9:28-Romans 10:10, the reason why Israel failed to obtain righteousness was not because they did what God told them to do and God gave them faulty instruction, but rather the problem was that they were pursuing the Law as though righteousness were by works instead of pursuing the Law as though righteousness were by faith in Messiah. They were zealous for God, but their zeal was not based on knowledge because they did not know the righteousness of God through faith and sought to establish their own. The goal obedience to goal the Law to grow in a relationship with Messiah for righteousness for everyone who has faith. Moses wrote about a righteousness of the Law that was of faith that says that God's Law is not far off, but that the Word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart so that you can do it, and this is how we submit to Messiah as Lord.

    You are treating what is said about three distinct laws as though they are all referring to the same thing. Sin is the transgression of God's righteousness and the Law is God's revealed instructions for how to act according to His righteousness and avoid sin, so now that God has revealed those instruction we can no longer claim ignorance as an excuse. As 1 John 3:9-10 says, those who are children of God to continue to practice transgression of the Law, while those who are not children of God to not practice righteousness in accordance with His Law. We have been delivered from sin, so we have been set free from transgression in order to live in obedience to God's Law.

    In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeyed God's Law and that he served God's Law with his mind, but contrasted that with a law of sin that held him captive that he served with his flesh. Paul described the Law of sin as coming about to increase trespasses (5:20), to stir up sin to bear fruit unto death (7:5), that held him captive (7:6), that gave sin it's power (7:8), that decieved him through the commandment to put him to death (7:9), that caused him not to do the good that he wanted (7:13-20), while God's Law is not sin, but reveals what sin is (7:7), is holy, righteous, and good (7:12), is the good that Paul did not blame for bringing death (7:13), and is the good that he sought to do (7:13-20).

    So Paul described the law of sin as being a law where sin had dominion over him, and Romans 6:14 specifies that the law that we are no longer under is one where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 7:4, it is referring to the law of her husband that forbid a wife from remarrying her first husband after she has been with someone else (Deuteronomy 24:1-4). In the previous verse, Peter was obeying the man-made law mentioned in Acts 10:28 that forbade Jews from visiting or associating with the Gentiles when he stopped visiting or associating with them.

    It is true that there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1), but those who are in Christ ought to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 3:6), which was in obedience to the Law. If you read closely, it says that sin is the transgression of the Law and that no one who is in Christ continues to practice transgression of the Law.

    If sin is the transgression of God's Law, then what sense does it make to interpret Romans 6:14 as saying that we aren't under God's Law and then say in the next verse that being under grace doesn't meant that we are permitted to transgress God's Law? Rather, in Psalms 119:29, David asked God to be gracious to Him by teaching him to obey His Law, so if we are under grace, then we are under God's Law. This is also confirmed in Titus 2:11-14, where our salvation involves being trained by grace to do things that are in accordance with what the Law instructs.

    The problem was not with the standard of God's righteousness, but rather the problem was with the Law of sin that was preventing us from obeying God's instructions for how to live according to that standard, so the solution to the problem is not to do away with God's righteous standard, but to to free us from the law of sin so that we might obey the law and thereby meet is righteous requirement.

    If you have faith in God to guide you in how to live righteously, then you will live according to His instructions for how to do that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  15. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Hello, I am responding to this thread so that you will get the notification and see my previous post.

    In 1 Corinthians 9:21, it says in a parallel statement that he was not free from God's Law, but under the Law of Christ, so they both refer to the same thing. Jesus was not in disagreement with the Father about what laws we should follow, but rather he said that his teachings we not his own, but that of that Father (John 7:16).
     
  16. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    What is your beef?

    bugkiller
     
  17. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    The heading for this part of the forum says "Christians only."

    bugkiller
     
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Hi Soyeng,

    The Christian is not under the law (Romans 6:14) is dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19) and is delivered from the law (Romans 7:6).

    Also the law is not of faith (Galatians 3:12).

    But I certainly believe that we receive the Spirit by faith (Galatians 3:14) and that if we walk according to the Spirit the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4).

    Also in 1 Corintians 9:21 it says "under the law to Christ," so that would be referring to our relationship to the law as it applies to us according to a relationship with Christ, who has forgiven us of past, present, and future sin (Romans 4:6-8).
     
  19. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Hello, I discussed how to interpret those verses in post #14, so I again invite you to read it. It was in reply to your previous screen name, so you might not have been alerted to it:

    1 John 3:4-9

    The short of it is that Romans 6:14 specifies that the law we are not under is one where sin had dominion over us, and God's Law does not at all fit that description, but rather that perfectly fits Paul's description of the law of sin. In Romans 7:23, Paul described the law of sin as a law that held him captive and Romans 7:6 specifies that we have been delivered from a law that held us captive, so it again fits the law of sin. We have been set free from the law of sin so that we can be free to serve God. Christ did not redeem us from all Lawlessness to order to free us to be Lawless. Likewise, in Galatians 2:17-19 it talks about promoting sin, and it is the law of sin that promotes sin that we've died to.

    Romans 7:4 is actually referring the the law of her husband that prohibited a woman from returning to her first husband after she had been with another man (Deuteronomy 24:1-4). God had divorced Israel, so she could not return without committing adultery, yet God continued to call for her return (Jeremiah 3). This created a dilemma because the only way for the wife to be free from her adultery would be if her first husband died, which means that God would have to die. Enter Jesus, who died so that Israel could be free from the law of her husband that she might be free to belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead that we might bear fruit for God (Romans 7:4). God's Law is His instructions for how to bear fruit for Him, so it wouldn't make any sense to free us from that.

    In Galatians 3:10-12, it is referring to man-made works of law, which are not of faith. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith was one of the weightier matters of God's Law, so God's Law is of faith, and straightforwardly it is about having faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live.

    The Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to the Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27) and all the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with what the Law instructs (Exodus 34:6-7), which should make sense because the Law was given by God and the Spirit is God, so if we are walking according to the Spirit, then we are walking in accordance with God's Law. Christ died to set us free from sin, which is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4), so that we might be free to obey it and thereby meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4).

    That doesn't detract from what I said because the law to Christ is in a parallel statement with not being without the law to God, which are both the Mosaic Law.
     
  20. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Even the law of God has a principle attached to it that I call the "Wet Paiint Principle". You are told not to do something, your tendency is to do that thing. If a Wet Paint sign is placed over a green bench you will find that a bunch of people wil touch that bench to see if the paint is stil wet. People want to test the boundaries to see if anything bad will happen to them if they violate a law of the Lord.

    Also, the scripture says that the law is not of faith; so I will take its word over yours on that issue. Galatians 3:12 says it, I believe it, that settles it. Bringing in a different scripture that to you says the opposite is not going to change the fact that the scripture says pretty plainly that the law is not of faith; unless you can somehow reconcile the two scriptures to each other so that they fit together nicely. What I am saying is that you need to show how Galatians 3:12 does not say that the law is not of faith and in what sense it does not say it according to context.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
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