1 Cor 14 -entire chapter, verse by verse

[zeke37]

Hi there all,

I am fairly new to this forum, and I quickly noticed that the "tongues" issue is prominent.

I thought that we could look into it verse by verse and see if we can come to a resolution



Now, to qualify, in Acts2 (Pentecost) God Himself spoke His words through the Apostles, as it was none of their thoughts but His....and ALL understood without need for any man to interpret. Many people who spoke many different languages heard the message and understood it (whether they accepted it is not the issue).



Does 1Cor14 speak of the same thing?

Or does 1Cor14 speak of a secret incoherent prayer language, from a man to God?

Or does 1Cor14 speak of God speaking through an individual and others interpreting that (what some call babble) (un)language?


Now MY opinion is none of the above. As I understand it, 1Cor14 teaches us how to effectively spread the Gospel to the other nations ...so that people that don't understand Hebrew or Greek can hear and have the opportunity of Salvation. This is done with HUMAN interpreters (someone who knows more than 1 language) and a preacher.

Feel free to respond, these are my thoughts and it is a long post.

Here we go!!!




1 Corinthians 14 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain


1 Corinthians 14

1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Prophecy is both given in Visions and in The Word. A teacher of the Scriptures is also called a prophet. There are no more prophets (visions from God-as there was in the Old Test-exception being the future 2 witnesses).

Take heed if someone claims direct revelation from God, and it doesn't line up.
Jesus said "I have foretold you all things"
The Law and the Prophets.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

The preacher is Spirit lead and saying the Words of Salvation found in the Gospels. The listener doesn't understand the preachers language, and therefore can learn nothing. The preacher is whistling dixie, and only God and the Angels would understand said preacher, for (T)they understand all earthly languages. But the people wouldn't, unless you bring a translator or speak the language.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

Teaching God's Words with understanding.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Speaking in a language that is not known to the public, is fruitless, and beneficial only to ones self. Now, teaching the Word with understanding, benefits the church listeners. No confusion.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

This is simply saying that it is better to teach the Word than to be gifted enough to speak foreign languages. If you speak that foreign language, than you can use that ability to translate to the church listeners.

Paul says that he wishes that they all could speak another/more languages than just the one from their birth. Even more so, he wishes that they understood the Word, the revelation of Christ, and were able to broadcast that truth. That is the IMPORTANT piece.

Paul spoke MANY different languages. This made him the ideal candidate for his mission, the Great Commission...spreading the Gospel to others besides those who speak Hebrew or Greek.

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

If Paul spoke in another Language, then those listening wouldn't have a clue what was being said. Instead, Paul speaks to them with revelation, knowledge, teaching and sound doctrine. Paul is lead by God's Holy Spirit.

7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

A pipe sounds like a pipe, a harp sounds like a harp, so speech of the Word (or prayer for that matter) should be also understood, as a pipe is understood. We know what a trumpet sounds like, it does not sound like something else, but like a trumpet blast. So should our prayers. No incoherent speech, but full understanding. No confusion. A prayer should sound like a prayer.

8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

If it doesn't sound like itself, then who would know what was heard? If a prayer or teaching is spoken in a foreign language, those listening wouldn't know what was being said.

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

This is self explanatory. Speaking in a language that is not understood by those listening is useless. You might as well be speaking to the air....or just to God, cause the people don't understand you....unless you speak their language. God and the angels on the other hand, understands all earthly languages.

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

All things have their own voice. People do not sound like babblers, we sound intelligent. We should fully understand what is being said, and what to pray.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

If you can't understand the speech, then the speaker would sound like a barbarian to you, and vice-versa.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

We all want Spiritual gifts, but the truth of the Word is what is to sought after, the gifts are rewards. Deserved because of obedience.

13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

This means simply that if you are speaking to foreigners in your language, make sure that you can interpret the words or have someone there that can.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

We've covered this.
Preaching/praying in any language that is not known to the audience is fruitless, even if you are preaching the truth. They won't understand it.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Everything with understanding. The 'praying in the Spirit' is with full understanding. Singing in the Spirit, is also with full understanding.
This would seem to discount the "unknown prayer language" as legit and render it false and fruitless.

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

Again pretty strait forward. If they can't understand you, they wouldn't even know when to say Amen.

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

You may be praying with understanding in your language, but those who hear your words, that don't know your language, won't have a clue as to what is being said. That edifies no one. After all, that is the point.

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Paul is saying that this (above) problem is not his because God has gifted him with many different languages. Paul spoke Greek, Hebrew Aramaic, and many dialects in between. Paul was a great vessel for God to work through. Paul could go to these different areas and preach without the need of an interpreter.

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

This verse also is strait forward. Understanding is paramount. No Babel or confusion. If it is not understood, it is fruitless. Again this seems to unqualify the 'gibberish' prayer language or 'gibberish' words from God through some so called preacher.

cont.

 

[zeke37]

20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

Learn like men/women, do not be unlearned as children. Again stressing the order and understanding.

21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

So God is going to use other people that speak languages to spread the Gospel. English surpasses Greek and Italian and Hebrew, when it comes to spreading the Good News. Again we are speaking of languages, foreign languages and not any unknown prayer language. This is Old Test. prophecy and it HAS come to pass with Christians. Jews did not as a whole, accept Christ, but the Christian nations did. We are these people.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

This is about promoting Christ as Messiah. Tongues means languages. Simply. So, spreading the Gospel in different languages is needed and proof for those who have not heard the Good News yet, while those that believe already, have previously heard the Gospel in their own language.

If we teach the Word to those that won't believe it is fruitless but is of much value to those of us who do believe.

23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

If the body of believers from all over, come together to worship and learn and teach....yet they all speak a different language or all speak different languages all at once, those that come in not knowing the Gospel or those young in faith will think that the congregation is nuts.

The noise that would make...all those languages mixing together...would make it impossible to learn or even comprehend anything. The Newbie or unbeliever would run for the hills. Now THIS sounds like the 'tongues' phenomenon...and that is not a good thing.

24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

But if all are in one accord and are prophesying (teaching) the Word of God so that all can understand it, then the Newbie or unbeliever will hear the Gospel and have the CHANCE to believe and live forever.

25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

In this way will Newbies and unbelievers be strengthened with God's truth and Revelation. Common practice of repentant Newbies (when overcome with the Holy Spirit) is to fall to the ground and weep, worshipping God...acknowledging their sin and breaking. Being born again as some call it. Accepting the Gospel and having a relationship with God.

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Paul is admonishing them here for disorderly conduct. This church was in need of healing. Too much confusion and different languages with out interpreters. If it does not edify, then it is not profitable to teach....and understanding each others speech/tongue/language is the first important step. Use interpreters, those that speak multiple languages...KNOWN languages.

There were no bibles then and folks from all over would bring a little and teach, in what ever language they knew. Not all understood the same language.

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

As detailed earlier...One preacher/prophet, one interpreter........at the most two or three preachers/prophets and an interpreter......interpret after each, in order and with understanding. No confusion. All in the peoples language so they can understand.

Not in Hebrew or Greek, as many early divisions of the new faith would suggest that this was for Jews only, not for Gentiles. This is Paul's great commission, to get the Word of Christ out to the World....not just in the Holy Land.

So, 1 person who knows the native language, and at most 2 or 3 teachers...at a time, otherwise it is very confusing.

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

No confusion....If no one can interpret your foreign language to the people, then do not speak out-loud and confuse the people. Speak in your heart and mind to God...to yourself.

29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

same as verse 27

30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

order and not confusion. No speaking over one another. Order

31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

One by one and there IS order, thus the people can learn.

32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

The prophetic writings of the Prophets are for the new teachers/prophets to use to teach the people, not any new revelation that might go against Them. We have the Prophets and Scriptures, and they are the truth. Don't fall into the traditions of man.

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

God decrees that all the churches should follow these rules of order and non-confusion. "as in" all churches = ..."And I mean in" all churches. Important. GOD is not the author of CONFUSION.

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

The history reports that there were both false prophetess' and temple prostitutes that worked the city in their temples and evidently were common to the church in Corinth as well. Paul tells the folk "there" to follow these rules for women, because 'man' is not strong enough to combat the whiles of forward women. No harlots or priestess' (of 'gods') allowed in the Christian Church of the Living God.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Culture. As above. Changing a whole city. From Pagan beliefs to Christian.

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

God's Word is for ALL, and not a secret to be held to one person. It is not a private matter, but for all. Also, God's Word came to us, it did not originate in out hearts or our minds. If God wants to speak to me he doesn't have to use an unintelligible language. This whole chapter is teaching this very thing. Order, not Kaos.

God's Word is for ALL, not just a preacher who says so.

37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

We must follow the Word of God over any traditional viewpoint. If the Word lines up with the Prophet = teacher = preacher, then fine...

...if not, well.....

38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

You can't change someones heart if they are set on a particular way of thinking. Let em to it. God will use their ignorance for a greater good....eventually. The Millennium is just around the corner.

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Teaching God's Word with Clarity is to be sought after. Allow the Gospel of Christ to spread amongst the peoples and languages of the whole world, and do not forbid this because you may think that it is only for this group or that group. The message was not just for Jews as many of Christ's followers thought. Paul clears that wrong thinking up in Acts.

40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

The central theme of the chapter.

This kinda defeats this whole private prayer language, or mumbo jumbo gift of tongues or whatever it is called.

If we follow the whole thought being presented the truth jumps out at you.

If we take verse out of context, we can allow the scriptures to represent anything that we can imagine.

The private prayer language and Babel tongue seen on TV ministries and in most Pentecostal churches is not a good thing.

And if a preacher claims revelation through gibberish, then he/she is not being truthful. If a preacher says that they are actually speaking for God (halllashaboookana....God says......) well, I suggest leaving right away.

They are in direct conflict of the very chapter that those (who support this doctrine) claim for their proof.




I invite any comments.


Thanks for your time.



Peace in Christ Messiah
c

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am not sure that this is a proper and an accurate exegesis of 1Corinthians14. It looks to me that you have quoted the verses but your comments in many cases do not match or explain what is actually said in those verses. Compare it with the exposition that I have written on the same chapter:
http://personal-communication.net.nz/1Corinthians14.html

All I have done is to expand on what the chapter actually says.

 

[sunlover1]

1 Corinthians 14

1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Prophecy is both given in Visions and in The Word. A teacher of the Scriptures is also called a prophet. There are no more prophets (visions from God-as there was in the Old Test-exception being the future 2 witnesses).

The NLT didn't interpret this like you did.
It seems you've taken poetic lisence with the entire chapter.
Pauls words were crystal clear, with no need
for commentary.

Follow after love,
Desire spiritual abilities too.
especially prophecy.

Just that simple.

1 Corinthians 14:1 NLT
1 Let love be your highest goal,
but also desire the special abilities the Spirit gives,
especially the gift of prophecy.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

The preacher is Spirit lead and saying the Words of Salvation found in the Gospels.

Again, where does it even imply this?

The listener doesn't understand the preachers language, and therefore can learn nothing. The preacher is whistling dixie, and only God and the Angels would understand said preacher, for (T)they understand all earthly languages. But the people wouldn't, unless you bring a translator or speak the language.

According to you, the Holy Spirit would be giving someone the ability to speak a foreign language when there is no hearer
of that language to be found.
God would waste His time doing such?


We need to go to the Word of God without bias.

2 Corinthians 3:18 ​

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. ​

The Word has the power to change us, but in order
for it to change us, we have to go into it with a soft heart and an open mind.
We study it
then we meditate on it
and then we can get revelation from God
and understand
His word.
Like this:

Mark 4:26-29 ​

26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground; ​

27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how. ​

28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. ​

29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.​

​

 

[sunlover1]

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Everything with understanding. The 'praying in the Spirit' is with full understanding. Singing in the Spirit, is also with full understanding.
This would seem to discount the "unknown prayer language" as legit and render it false and fruitless.

Your interpretation doesn't work.
Again, you're adding your bias.
What it says is simple to understand:

What is it then?
I will pray with the spirit,
and I will pray with the understanding also.

I will sing with the spirit,
and I will sing with the understanding also.

 

[sunlover1]

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Paul is saying that this (above) problem is not his because God has gifted him with many different languages. Paul spoke Greek, Hebrew Aramaic, and many dialects in between. Paul was a great vessel for God to work through. Paul could go to these different areas and preach without the need of an interpreter.

But he's not speaking about all these languages that he speaks or this next wouldn't make sense.
He doesn't understand when he speaks other languages?
Of course he does.

Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding.

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

This verse also is strait forward. Understanding is paramount. No Babel or confusion. If it is not understood, it is fruitless. Again this seems to unqualify the 'gibberish' prayer language or 'gibberish' words from God through some so called preacher.

cont.

fruitless?
He says "in the church".
Why did he add that qualifier?
Again, it appears you take poetic license.

IMO
sunlover

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

This means simply that if you are speaking to foreigners in your language, make sure that you can interpret the words or have someone there that can.

Where do you get the word "unknown" from, as I do not see that in the greek [which would be strong's # 50 if used]? No fair adding to the word LOL.

Galatians 1:22 and was unknown/agnooumenoV <50> by face to the assemblies of Judea, that [are] in Christ,


If one is speaking in a tongue to someone knowing that tongue, how would it be an unknown one? He may not understand what is being said but that person speaking will have to know the Scriptures to be able to interpret it I think. Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

1 corin 14:13 Wherefore the one speaking to tongue let him be praying! that he may be interpreting

1 corin 14:19 But in an assembly I am willing five words through the mind of me to speak, that also others I should be instructing or/than/h <2228> ten thousand words in a tongue.

1 Corinthians 14:19 all <235> {BUT} en <1722> {IN } ekklhsia <1577> {ASSEMBLY} qelw <2309> (5719) {I DESIRE} pente <4002> {FIVE} logouV <3056> {WORDS} dia <1223> tou <3588> {OF THE} nooV <3563> {UNDERSTANDING} mou <3450> {OF ME} lalhsai <2980> (5658) {TO SPEAK,} ina <2443> {THAT} kai <2532> {ALSO} allouV <243> {OTHERS} kathchsw <2727> (5661) {I MAY INSTRUCT,} h <2228> {THAN} muriouV <3463> {TEN THOUSAND} logouV <3056> {WORDS} en <1722> {IN} glwssh <1100> {A TONGUE.}

 

[sunlover1]

Where do you get the word "unknown" from, as I do not see that in the greek [which would be strong's # 50 if used]? No fair adding to the word LOL.

Galatians 1:22 and was unknown/agnooumenoV <50> by face to the assemblies of Judea, that [are] in Christ,


If one is speaking in a tongue to someone knowing that tongue, how would it be an unknown one? He may not understand what is being said but that person speaking will have to know the Scriptures to be able to interpret it I think. Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

1 corin 14:13 Wherefore the one speaking to tongue let him be praying! that he may be interpreting

1 corin 14:19 But in assemblies I am willing 5 words through the mind of me to speak, that also others I should be instructing or/than/h <2228> ten thousand words in a tongue.

1 Corinthians 14:19 all <235> {BUT} en <1722> {IN [THE]} ekklhsia <1577> {ASSEMBLY} qelw <2309> (5719) {I DESIRE} pente <4002> {FIVE} logouV <3056> {WORDS} dia <1223> tou <3588> {WITH} nooV <3563> {UNDERSTANDING} mou <3450> {MY} lalhsai <2980> (5658) {TO SPEAK,} ina <2443> {THAT} kai <2532> {ALSO} allouV <243> {OTHERS} kathchsw <2727> (5661) {I MAY INSTRUCT,} h <2228> {THAN} muriouV <3463> {TEN THOUSAND} logouV <3056> {WORDS} en <1722> {IN} glwssh <1100> {A TONGUE.}

It's "unknown" if there need be an interpretor.
So in that sense it is unknown anyhow.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
Where do you get the word "unknown" from, as I do not see that in the greek [which would be strong's # 50 if used]? No fair adding to the word LOL.

Galatians 1:22 and was unknown/agnooumenoV <50> by face to the assemblies of Judea, that [are] in Christ,..........................

It's "unknown" if there need be an interpretor.
So in that sense it is unknown anyhow.

But I don't believe in adding or taking away words in the Word if it is not in the original greek, or at least put it in [brackets], especially the article "the" which is either left out or put in even though the greek says otherwise.
But that is just me LOL.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Mark 13:13 and ye shall be being hated by all because of the Name of Me, butyet the one enduring into [an] End/teloV <5056>--he shall be saved.

Matt 24:14 And shall be being proclaimed this, the Good News of the Kingdom, in whole the inhabited land/house//oiko-umenh<3625>, into witness to all the Nations, then shall be arriving The/to <3588> End/teloV <5056>

 

[sunlover1]

But I don't believe in adding or taking away words in the Word if it is not in the original greek, or at least put it in [brackets], especially the article "the" which is either left out or put in even though the greek says otherwise.
But that is just me LOL.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Mark 13:13 and ye shall be being hated by all because of the Name of Me, butyet the one enduring into [an] End/teloV <5056>--he shall be saved.

Matt 24:14 And shall be being proclaimed this, the Good News of the Kingdom, in whole the inhabited land/house//oiko-umenh<3625>, into witness to all the Nations, then shall be arriving The/to <3588> End/teloV<5056>

I was just giving a possible reason for the adding of the word "unknown".

I agree, I don't care for the added stuff either.

blessings,
sunlover

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I was just giving a possible reason for the adding of the word "unknown".

I agree, I don't care for the added stuff either.

blessings,
sunlover

I suppose that is one reason I like to read the Scriptures with an interlinear so I won't be reading added words from translators which could change the whole meaning of a verse or even a chapter in the Bible.
Thank you for your thoughts and may the LORD bless you continually.

 

[zeke37]

Hi there Sunlover


The reason I found it necessary to show the entire chapter is so that the whole thought doesn't get lost.

I had hoped that by reading the whole, it would show any reader that the tongue that Paul speaks of is languages, not gibber jabber.

Paul is sent on the road to spread the Gospel. What is more likely,

1- Paul teaches the Corinthians about a secret unknown giibberjabber prayer language, or that God speaks to us in gibberjabber....

2-or that Paul is fulfilling his portion of the Great Commission by spreading the Gospel of Christ to the nations that didn't necessarily speak Hebrew or Greek.

Remember that the Gospel is open up to the world, not just the Jew. So Paul is sent by God to do this. Not to say hallashabookana.






Yes I am aware that the word 'unknown' is not in the manuscripts. I was quoting from a KJV.


Of course I disagree with your analysis. The point is spreading the Gospel to people who didn't speak Greek or Hebrew, to open it up to the world. That is the entire point. The Great Commission.

By your analysis, you would have me believe that Paul was in Corinth teaching people to rant in babble and call it a prayer to God??? or call it God Himself (speaking in babble).


To me that is the most fantastically wrong explanation I know of. I am afraid that you are missing the point.


At least, by way of the poll on another thread, only app. 1/3 of the people that took the pole believe in it the way you do.

Everything is to be done with understanding, not the opposite, which is what tongue talkers are doing.


sunlover,

I realize that you believe that I wrote my BIAS opinion, but after reading the whole, it seems that my BIAS opinion is the only honest way to read the scripture.


I believe that YOUR opinion is BIAS as well. You are a 'Pro" for babble tongues, while I am a "Con".


That is to be expected. I knew I would get somewhat of a negative response, but I am trying to help someone that doesn't already have an opinion made up in their mind.


You do....so what else can I say.

21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.


33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.


Have at it then.

38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Have a nice day,


in His service
c

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

In the interests of giving a balanced view of 1Corinthians14, it is good to do an analysis of this interpretation of 1Corinthians14. A good exposition of a passage of Scripture has to be accurate, in harmony with the rest of the New Testament, and coming from what the passage actually says, not what we want it to say. Therefore, to get the best out of a passage of Scripture we need to come to it with an open mind and not one full of preconceived ideas.

Let's look at it then.

1 Corinthians 14 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain


1 Corinthians 14

1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Prophecy is both given in Visions and in The Word. A teacher of the Scriptures is also called a prophet. There are no more prophets (visions from God-as there was in the Old Test-exception being the future 2 witnesses).

Take heed if someone claims direct revelation from God, and it doesn't line up.
Jesus said "I have foretold you all things"
The Law and the Prophets.

This is not what Paul is talking about at all. Paul is saying that we should follow after love and make that the motivation for all that we do. With love as our foundation and motivation, we are to desire spiritual gifts. Spiritual gifts are not to be desired out of a desire for influence or power, but from the love of Christ, as detailed in the previous chapter. Paul then says that of the spiritual gifts we exercise, prophecy is to be preferred.

Paul does not mention the Old Testament, or that revelation from God has finished. Nor does he give any warning about the use of prophecy.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

The preacher is Spirit lead and saying the Words of Salvation found in the Gospels. The listener doesn't understand the preachers language, and therefore can learn nothing. The preacher is whistling dixie, and only God and the Angels would understand said preacher, for (T)they understand all earthly languages. But the people wouldn't, unless you bring a translator or speak the language.

This interpretation has little to do with the verse.

Paul is merely stating whom tongues is directed to. It is not directed toward men but to God because no person is able to understand what is being spoken. He then says that a person is speaking mysteries in the Holy Spirit. Paul does not mention the words of salvation, or that tongues is 'whistling dixie'

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

Teaching God's Words with understanding.

Zeke has missed Paul's definition of New Testament prophecy and the purpose of it. If Paul meant preaching and teaching he would not have used the word 'prophesieth'. He would have used 'preached' or 'taught'. Paul is not unlearned in language. He knows how to use the correct words to explain his meaning.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Speaking in a language that is not known to the public, is fruitless, and beneficial only to ones self. Now, teaching the Word with understanding, benefits the church listeners. No confusion.

This is not what the verse actually says. The verse says that when a person speaks in tongues he builds himself up in his faith. Paul does not say that tongues is fruitless in itself. When we spend time in private prayer, we build ourselves up in our faith and awareness of God through fellowship with Him. Tongues is a tool for assist that. But in the church, prophecy builds up others. Again, Zeke misquotes the Scripture. Prophecy is not teaching the Word. Paul would have said that if he meant preaching and teaching.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

This is simply saying that it is better to teach the Word than to be gifted enough to speak foreign languages. If you speak that foreign language, than you can use that ability to translate to the church listeners.

Paul says that he wishes that they all could speak another/more languages than just the one from their birth. Even more so, he wishes that they understood the Word, the revelation of Christ, and were able to broadcast that truth. That is the IMPORTANT piece.

Paul spoke MANY different languages. This made him the ideal candidate for his mission, the Great Commission...spreading the Gospel to others besides those who speak Hebrew or Greek.

This may very well be what Zeke believes, but it is not what Paul is saying. Paul is saying that he would rather they all used the gift of tongues, but prophecy is to be preferred in the church because that gift is greater and more suitable in that context than tongues, except if the tongues were interpreted. The point of it is that in public use, prophecy edifies the church more than tongues.

To say that Paul wanted his hearers to learn several natural languages and speak them to exercise the gift of tongues is just nonsense. It is not what Paul is saying at all.

How do we know that Paul spoke many languages? Where in the New Testament does it say that of Paul? Come on!

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

If Paul spoke in another Language, then those listening wouldn't have a clue what was being said. Instead, Paul speaks to them with revelation, knowledge, teaching and sound doctrine. Paul is lead by God's Holy Spirit.

Granted. He has it right here (for once).

I cut the next verses to save space, and because I basically agree with what Zeke is saying.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

We all want Spiritual gifts, but the truth of the Word is what is to sought after, the gifts are rewards. Deserved because of obedience.

Nowhere in the New Testament does it say that the gifts of the Spirit are rewards for obedience. Everything that God gives to us is on the basis of grace. We don't deserve anything. This is one of the cardinal doctrines of the New Testament.

The gifts of the Spirit are God's tools of trade. They are not for us, and we don't own them. They are the different ways that the Holy Spirit moves through us to support the powerful preaching of the gospel to sinners. The Holy Spirit is passionate for souls to be saved. He allows us to use the tools in order to accomplish that.

Paul is saying that we should use the resources that God has made available to us to build the church up.

I agree with Zeke in the next verse.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

We've covered this.
Preaching/praying in any language that is not known to the audience is fruitless, even if you are preaching the truth. They won't understand it.

This is not what Paul is saying. He says that when a person prays in tongues, his natural understanding is unfruitful. He does not say that the exercise of speaking in tongues is fruitless at all. Paul says that when he is praying in tongues his spirit is praying directly to God, but he cannot understand with his natural mind what he is praying about. This is because it is direct spirit to spirit praying.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Everything with understanding. The 'praying in the Spirit' is with full understanding. Singing in the Spirit, is also with full understanding.
This would seem to discount the "unknown prayer language" as legit and render it false and fruitless.

Again, Zeke is misquoting the Scripture. Paul is saying that he will pray with his natural mind, and he will pray with his spirit in tongues. He will combine them in his prayer times alone with God. He will also sing with his natural mind and he will sing in tongues when he is in the private places with God.

Zeke does not realise that Paul is contrasting praying with his understanding and praying with his spirit. Praying with his understanding is not praying with his spirit, and praying with his spirit is not praying with his understanding. Zeke has totally missed Paul's meaning here and interpreted the verse from his own preconceived misconception.

I agree with his take on verse 16.

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

You may be praying with understanding in your language, but those who hear your words, that don't know your language, won't have a clue as to what is being said. That edifies no one. After all, that is the point.

This is NOT what Paul is saying in this verse. He is saying that when you pray in tongues you are giving thanks to God well; in other words you are doing something that is thoroughly approved of God. But because you are doing it in a church meeting before others, they are not built up by it because they do not understand what is being said.

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Paul is saying that this (above) problem is not his because God has gifted him with many different languages. Paul spoke Greek, Hebrew Aramaic, and many dialects in between. Paul was a great vessel for God to work through. Paul could go to these different areas and preach without the need of an interpreter.

This has no basis in Scripture at all. This is not what Paul is saying. Paul is saying that he speaks in unknown tongues more than all of them. Zeke believes that Paul could speak many languages and he twists the Scripture around to fit its beliefs, rather than formulate his belief on the basis of what the Scripture actually says.

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

This verse also is strait forward. Understanding is paramount. No Babel or confusion. If it is not understood, it is fruitless. Again this seems to unqualify the 'gibberish' prayer language or 'gibberish' words from God through some so called preacher.

Zeke would be right in the first part of his interpretation when he limits his thinking to the church meeting. I disagree with the second part where he calls the gift of tongues 'gibberish' because there is no basis anywhere in the New Testament to back up his claim.

Paul does not call the tongues that the Corinthians are speaking as 'gibberish' and furthermore, he compares his own speaking in tongues with theirs as being much the same. It is not the speaking in tongues that is at fault, it is where the Corinthians are speaking it. They are speaking it in their church meetings instead of using it in private prayer where it belongs.

Zeke will not be able to show us anywhere in the New Testament where Paul ever said that the tongues that the Corinthians or anyone else was speaking is just gibberish. He views theirs and his tongues as real languages, spoken somewhere in the world, that God understands when spoken in the private prayer room.

I think that it is misleading and dangerous to set out an exposition of Scripture that does not reflect what the Scripture is actually saying. We need to base our theology on what the Scripture actually says instead of making it say what we want it to say to back up our preconceived ideas.

I won't bother to analyse the second post, because I have made my point quite clear in this one. Zeke has every right to put forward his views and I don't deny him his right. But I also have the right to give my answers to them as well, which I have done.

We will let the other readers decide for themselves.

 

[zeke37]

erased posted before spell check, and it needed it.

 

[zeke37]

from oscar

In the interests of giving a balanced view of 1Corinthians14, it is good to do an analysis of this interpretation of 1Corinthians14. A good exposition of a passage of Scripture has to be accurate, in harmony with the rest of the New Testament, and coming from what the passage actually says, not what we want it to say. Therefore, to get the best out of a passage of Scripture we need to come to it with an open mind and not one full of preconceived ideas.

If you truly mean that, you will have to forget about any charismatic tongue at least at first, until you think it is explained in scripture. In other words, no pre conceived notions, either of us. If you can admit that the word "unknown" is not in the manuscript, and that the word tongue(s) is "glossa" in the greek,

Strong's
G1100
&#947;&#955;&#969;&#834;&#963;&#963;&#945;
glo&#772;ssa
gloce'-sah
Of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication a language (specifically one naturally unacquired): - tongue.
then we can move forward. I will attempt to answer your responses to your satisfaction...after I reply to this post.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke37
FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=View Post"


1 Corinthians 14 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain


1 Corinthians 14

1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Prophecy is both given in Visions and in The Word. A teacher of the Scriptures is also called a prophet. There are no more prophets (visions from God-as there was in the Old Test-exception being the future 2 witnesses).

Take heed if someone claims direct revelation from God, and it doesn't line up.
Jesus said "I have foretold you all things"
The Law and the Prophets.



This is not what Paul is talking about at all. Paul is saying that we should follow after love and make that the motivation for all that we do. With love as our foundation and motivation, we are to desire spiritual gifts. Spiritual gifts are not to be desired out of a desire for influence or power, but from the love of Christ, as detailed in the previous chapter. Paul then says that of the spiritual gifts we exercise, prophecy is to be preferred.

-the emphasis is prophecy. In this case prophecy means scriptural knowledge and the ability to teach others, which of course is Spirit lead. Paul was in Corinth which was a church and he was about to give them instructions about order and how to avoid confusion....he was giving these orders to those who were there to share their Psalms or Scriptures with others. FACT: Corinth was a melting pot of culture. It was a church that Paul admonished. He corrected them. Many different people that spoke many different (earthly) languages were represented there.
So, Paul is saying that the Spiritual Gifts are great and that the most important one is prophecy, which I know in this case means to be a true teacher of God's Word, with Holy Spirit lead knowledge from those Scriptures. It does not mean prophecy as in receiving a new one from God, but a prophecy already received in His Word. "Prophecy to these people....".....as an example. Christ said..."I have told you all things." and He spent a lot of time praying. And teaching....and He said...It is written.....so many times...
so Prophecy can mean teaching the Word properly, or it can mean a revelation of God about something that is going to happen in the future...given to the likes of Jeremiah and Daniel and Ezekiel and Isaiah....the prophets....
which is it? You know what I think. That's why I used the OT examples...as I did last time.


Paul does not mention the Old Testament, or that revelation from God has finished. Nor does he give any warning about the use of prophecy.


as explained above, I felt it necessary to explain the use of the word prophecy in this case. Christ said "I have told you ALL things." We have in His Word, ALL the prophets.


Quote:
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Quote:

The preacher is Spirit lead and saying the Words of Salvation found in the Gospels. The listener doesn't understand the preachers language, and therefore can learn nothing. The preacher is whistling dixie, and only God and the Angels would understand said preacher, for (T)they understand all earthly languages. But the people wouldn't, unless you bring a translator or speak the language.



This interpretation has little to do with the verse.

Paul is merely stating whom tongues is directed to. It is not directed toward men but to God because no person is able to understand what is being spoken. He then says that a person is speaking mysteries in the Holy Spirit. Paul does not mention the words of salvation, or that tongues is 'whistling dixie'


'whistling Dixie' was a figure of speech, something that Paul used much in his writings. Colloquial Greek. Mine was Americana.
The reason "unknown" was added by the translators was to imply that it was foreign, and the 'speaking' is preaching or teaching or singing God's Word to others, to edify them that heard (some for the first time)the Gospel message of Messiah. It was a church. A place to learn about God. Paul is teaching them that...the man that preaches here in a language that is foreign to the rest of the people there listening, (the preacher is a foreigner, or there is many cultures/nations/different speaking people in attendance) he isn't reaching men (or women) with his teaching because they can't understand his words. Only God (Who is always in attendance) would understand you. Those listening surely wouldn't...because your tongue=languages is different than theirs. It is mysterious to them, even if it is the truth that he preaches. They just don't understand his language. That is why later Paul says to have an interpreter with you to get the message across. And then the Holy Spirit can Work in those that hear the Message of Salvation....and accept it.

Quote:
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

Quote:

Teaching God's Words with understanding.



Zeke has missed Paul's definition of New Testament prophecy and the purpose of it. If Paul meant preaching and teaching he would not have used the word 'prophesieth'. He would have used 'preached' or 'taught'. Paul is not unlearned in language. He knows how to use the correct words to explain his meaning.

I have addressed this already. Paul knew more languages than anyone, as scripture says. He was a linguist. A multi-linguist.
It is a much higher form of teaching, because it is Spirit lead and thus called prophecy.
For example I could refer you to Ezekiel 37, and we could read God's prophecy given to Ezekiel, and how God tells Ezekiel to tell the people about it. The 'telling' is called prophecy. Ezekiel prophecy's the prophecy to the people. See, this makes all teachers of God's Word prophets, right or wrong(for there are false prophets too!) .
So there is much evidence that teaches us this fact.


Quote:
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Quote:

Speaking in a language that is not known to the public, is fruitless, and beneficial only to ones self. Now, teaching the Word with understanding, benefits the church listeners. No confusion.



This is not what the verse actually says. The verse says that when a person speaks in tongues he builds himself up in his faith. Paul does not say that tongues is fruitless in itself. When we spend time in private prayer, we build ourselves up in our faith and awareness of God through fellowship with Him. Tongues is a tool for assist that. But in the church, prophecy builds up others. Again, Zeke misquotes the Scripture. Prophecy is not teaching the Word. Paul would have said that if he meant preaching and teaching.

It says that if you speak a language foreign to your audience, then you can only be talking to yourself, and that means that you are the only one being "built up" by your WORDS. No charismatic tongue has been mentioned, if it will ever be (we shall see). If you teach God's Word properly, the church is edified (built up). This is only possible with understanding. There is a contrast between the two parts of the verse. one is admonishment, one is praise.

Quote:
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Quote:

This is simply saying that it is better to teach the Word than to be gifted enough to speak foreign languages. If you speak that foreign language, than you can use that ability to translate to the church listeners.

Paul says that he wishes that they all could speak another/more languages than just the one from their birth. Even more so, he wishes that they understood the Word, the revelation of Christ, and were able to broadcast that truth. That is the IMPORTANT piece.

Paul spoke MANY different languages. This made him the ideal candidate for his mission, the Great Commission...spreading the Gospel to others besides those who speak Hebrew or Greek.



This may very well be what Zeke believes, but it is not what Paul is saying. Paul is saying that he would rather they all used the gift of tongues, but prophecy is to be preferred in the church because that gift is greater and more suitable in that context than tongues, except if the tongues were interpreted. The point of it is that in public use, prophecy edifies the church more than tongues.

My words above stand. Prophecy is to teach God's Word properly, and tongues means Languages.
Paul wished they all spoke as many languages as he did, so that all could exchange without confusion and need of third or fourth parties.
Paul is emphasizing what he said in the previous verse. There is no mention of a charismatic tongue.



To say that Paul wanted his hearers to learn several natural languages and speak them to exercise the gift of tongues is just nonsense. It is not what Paul is saying at all.

It is what Paul WISHED, just like me saying to you or you saying to me...'just Listen! ', his desire is that they all had the same understanding and abilities as he did to further the church. They did not, thus the rules.


How do we know that Paul spoke many languages? Where in the New Testament does it say that of Paul? Come on!

Do a study on Paul, and see for yourself. Paul was an Israelite, from the tribe of Benjamin, with it's own dialect, and he was Very Well Versed in the Scriptures, he knew Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic, and he was a Roman citizen as well. He traveled the world, and God used him for the express purpose to spread the Gospel to the World....which spoke different=foreign=unknown languages.

Quote:
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

Quote:

If Paul spoke in another Language, then those listening wouldn't have a clue what was being said. Instead, Paul speaks to them with revelation, knowledge, teaching and sound doctrine. Paul is lead by God's Holy Spirit.



Granted. He has it right here (for once).

I cut the next verses to save space, and because I basically agree with what Zeke is saying.


well that's good. We should better translate the word...'except' as unless or instead.




cont.

 

[zeke37]

Quote:
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

Quote:

We all want Spiritual gifts, but the truth of the Word is what is to sought after, the gifts are rewards. Deserved because of obedience.



Nowhere in the New Testament does it say that the gifts of the Spirit are rewards for obedience. Everything that God gives to us is on the basis of grace. We don't deserve anything. This is one of the cardinal doctrines of the New Testament.

The gifts of the Spirit are God's tools of trade. They are not for us, and we don't own them. They are the different ways that the Holy Spirit moves through us to support the powerful preaching of the gospel to sinners. The Holy Spirit is passionate for souls to be saved. He allows us to use the tools in order to accomplish that.

Paul is saying that we should use the resources that God has made available to us to build the church up.

If you can't use it wisely, God is not going to give you it. You earn the gifts at what ever Clock God decides. They are still given by God to whom He sees fit to give them to. I still stand by my words that the charismatic tongue is not a gift of God. But I certainly don't mind the way you strive for relationship. The desire for a personal relationship with Christ is very admirable. Still, I find no biblical proof to support your belief. No charismatic tongue has been mentioned. Salvation is grace, but where is is in scripture that the gifts are grace as well. Personally I think we all have certain gifts, some have more and some have less. Some are good at using their gifts and others are learning. Some do not deserve any. God knows.


I agree with Zeke in the next verse.

Quote:
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Quote:

We've covered this.
Preaching/praying in any language that is not known to the audience is fruitless, even if you are preaching the truth. They won't understand it.



This is not what Paul is saying. He says that when a person prays in tongues, his natural understanding is unfruitful. He does not say that the exercise of speaking in tongues is fruitless at all.


Yes he does,...For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful

Paul says that when he is praying in tongues his spirit is praying directly to God, but he cannot understand with his natural mind what he is praying about. This is because it is direct spirit to spirit praying.

No it isn't. It is simply fitting your preconceived notion of the charismatic tongue into this verse. The part I bold-ed says differently.
God is not mentioned. The 'I' means 'any one of us' or 'anybody', example....(Paul is still teaching on how to teach others the Christian message) If he or we speak or teach another group, in a language that is foreign to them, then although the desire to do God's will is there, they that listen will have no knowledge of or what I (or who ever is teaching) am saying. So no understanding is possible. Common sense. No charismatic tongue is mentioned.

Quote:
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Quote:

Everything with understanding. The 'praying in the Spirit' is with full understanding. Singing in the Spirit, is also with full understanding.
This would seem to discount the "unknown prayer language" as legit and render it false and fruitless.



Again, Zeke is misquoting the Scripture.


I was not quoting scripture. I was giving my interpretation of the scripture.


Paul is saying that he will pray with his natural mind, and he will pray with his spirit in tongues.

no, he says his spirit will pray and sing properly with understanding. The charismatic tongue isn't mentioned, nor implied.


He will combine them in his prayer times alone with God. He will also sing with his natural mind and he will sing in tongues when he is in the private places with God.

It doesn't say that at all. No private prayer place (or closet) is mentioned nor implied. The teaching is for when they come together to share their Psalms and Scriptures. All is to be done with understanding.


Zeke does not realise that Paul is contrasting praying with his understanding and praying with his spirit.

They are done at the same time. There is no separation when they are done right. This is not addressing the charismatic tongue. Your desire to pray and sing to God is to be done with understanding.


Praying with his understanding is not praying with his spirit, and praying with his spirit is not praying with his understanding. Zeke has totally missed Paul's meaning here and interpreted the verse from his own preconceived misconception.

I have not missed it. The verses go together, so how can you say that. There is a way to pray and sing to God....and that is in the spirit of understanding, and not just desire. Understanding is the central theme in explaining the orderly conduct of how to teach others from all around the world....under one roof...or more notably how we are to continue to bring the Gospel to the world. Order and understanding, with no confusion.


I agree with his take on verse 16.

to agree with me about verse 16 you would have to keep the relevance of what I said in the previous verses. If they don't understand you, then they won't even know when to say Amen.

Quote:
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

Quote:

You may be praying with understanding in your language, but those who hear your words, that don't know your language, won't have a clue as to what is being said. That edifies no one. After all, that is the point.



This is NOT what Paul is saying in this verse. He is saying that when you pray in tongues you are giving thanks to God well; in other words you are doing something that is thoroughly approved of God. But because you are doing it in a church meeting before others, they are not built up by it because they do not understand what is being said.


Not at all. It is teaching us that if you speak a tongue that the listener doesn't understand.....although you are praying or trying to teach, the others don't get it...keeping with the theme of understanding and knowing when to say Amen. You may give a great sermon but they won't be able to understand you....if you speak a foreign language than they understand.

Quote:
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Quote:

Paul is saying that this (above) problem is not his because God has gifted him with many different languages. Paul spoke Greek, Hebrew Aramaic, and many dialects in between. Paul was a great vessel for God to work through. Paul could go to these different areas and preach without the need of an interpreter.



This has no basis in Scripture at all. This is not what Paul is saying. Paul is saying that he speaks in unknown tongues more than all of them. Zeke believes that Paul could speak many languages and he twists the Scripture around to fit its beliefs, rather than formulate his belief on the basis of what the Scripture actually says.


It is true what I said. Believe it or not. Do a search on the life of Paul and see what the collective evidence says.
Tongues means languages, not charismatic tongues or praying in the Spirit.


Quote:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Quote:

This verse also is strait forward. Understanding is paramount. No Babel or confusion. If it is not understood, it is fruitless. Again this seems to unqualify the 'gibberish' prayer language or 'gibberish' words from God through some so called preacher.



Zeke would be right in the first part of his interpretation when he limits his thinking to the church meeting. I disagree with the second part where he calls the gift of tongues 'gibberish' because there is no basis anywhere in the New Testament to back up his claim.


It is a word that means confusion. It is what the charismatic tongue is. The theme all the way through the entire verse is understanding. It is opposite of what you believe. Paul clearly says that he wishes he spoke but a few words of wisdom, then thousands of words of confusion. This theme of foreign languages and how to get past that barrier is carried all the way through the entire chapter.


Paul does not call the tongues that the Corinthians are speaking as 'gibberish' and furthermore, he compares his own speaking in tongues with theirs as being much the same. It is not the speaking in tongues that is at fault, it is where the Corinthians are speaking it. They are speaking it in their church meetings instead of using it in private prayer where it belongs.

The word tongues means languages, not charismatic tongue or evidence of the Holy Spirit. Paul is teaching them how to spread the Gospel to the world, through different countries with different languages. Not once has private prayer been addressed accept when the others can't understand what you would say because you don't speak their language, then keep your prayers to yourself and don't cause confusion with your words, that would sound like barbarian's speaking (to them). No charismatic tongue mentioned, but I understand where your confusion comes in.


Zeke will not be able to show us anywhere in the New Testament where Paul ever said that the tongues that the Corinthians or anyone else was speaking is just gibberish. He views theirs and his tongues as real languages, spoken somewhere in the world, that God understands when spoken in the private prayer room.

There is no mention of a private prayer room, and no one will be able to see any example of the charismatic tongue in scripture. All languages are real languages, the charismatic tongue is not a language, so Paul never addressed it. All languages are represented all around the world and God understands them all. There is no mention of the charismatic tongue.


I think that it is misleading and dangerous to set out an exposition of Scripture that does not reflect what the Scripture is actually saying.

That seems to be what you are doing.


We need to base our theology on what the Scripture actually says instead of making it say what we want it to say to back up our preconceived ideas.

Well....start over then and drop you preconceptions.


I won't bother to analyse the second post, because I have made my point quite clear in this one. Zeke has every right to put forward his views and I don't deny him his right. But I also have the right to give my answers to them as well, which I have done.

As do I have the right to re-respond.


We will let the other readers decide for themselves.

Yes. That is all that I ask for.


in His service
c

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

As do I have the right to re-respond.


We will let the other readers decide for themselves.

Yes. That is all that I ask for.


in His service
c

You have every right to respond. This is what makes the Christian faith so interesting and fun. If we all agreed with each other, then what a boring life that would be. There are some churches that are so legalistic and everyone has to agree with their hard and fast doctrines. Those churches are boring and lifeless because they do not encourage debate and different ways of looking at our faith.

We are never going to agree. You see one side of it, and I see the other. This is because we live in different worlds, with different mentors and backgrounds. I think that it is a natural attribute of being a Christian in a divided church with so many different perspectives.

But as long as we agree in the important areas of faith, like the Nicene Creed, and that we are saved through the work of Jesus on the cross of Calvary. It is not whether we speak in tongues or not which determines our standing with God. It is our attitude to Jesus and what He did for us on the cross. I sense that we do have the same attitude in this, and this is why I believe that our differences of opinion concerning the gifts of the Spirit do not really divide us in the most central doctrines of our Christian faith.

I sense that you think deeply about these issues, and go a bit deeper below the surface to find information to support what you believe. I respect that, and I respect that you have the courage of your convictions to stand up to all comers.

I am enjoying jousting with you over these issues, and I assure you that I take nothing personally. What I do respect about you is that you play the 'ball' and not the player. In other words, you don't flame or attack individuals. You debate the issues, and I guess that this is what this forum is all about.

This post is an 'olive branch' post because I am affirming our points of unity rather than our differences right now.

In my next post, I will ask some penetrating questions based on 1Corinthians14 to see what your interpretation is. I'm sure our exchanges are going to continue to be interesting and fun.

Cheers

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Now Zeke, I was kind to you in my last post, but now let the joust recommence!

If we look at 1Corinthians14:2 in several versions, we can get composite view of what the verse is telling us.

New American:
For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God; for no-one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
The marginal read for 'understands' gives 'hears', and the one for 'in his spirit' gives an alternative 'by the Spirit'.

The Amplified Bible (which seeks to give the various senses of the Greek words in the verse)
For one who speaks in an [unknown] tongue speaks not to men but to God, for no one understands or catches his meaning, because in the (Holy) Spirit he utters secret truths and hidden things [not obvious to the understanding].
In the introduction to the Amplified Bible it says that the square brackets 'contain justified clarifying words or comments not actually expressed in the immediate original text.

The New KJV
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
Notice that this verse agrees with the marginal reading of the NAV and the AB in the phrase 'in the spirit'.

The New English Bible
When a man is using the language of ecstasy he is talking with God, not with men, for no man understands him; he is no doubt inspired, but he speaks mysteries.
This verse was translated with scholars representing the Baptist Union of Great Britain
The Church of England
The Church of Scotland
The Congregational Church of England and Wales
The Council of Churches for Wales
The Irish Council of Churches
The Society of Friends (Quakers)
The Methodist Church of Great Britain
The Presbyterian Church of England
The British and Foreign Bible Society
The National Bible Society of Scotland

So it is not a lightweight translation by any means, and it would have been very thoroughly researched. Probably much more thoroughly than the KJV. And with so many representatives from so many church demoninations and organisations, there would have been many differing opinions about the meaning of words.

I am making a big point about that translation because it talks of tongues being 'the language of ecstacy'. It does not imply any of the natural languages that Paul knew. Why would Paul call tongues the language of ecstacy, which would have been the agreed meaning of the Greek put forward by such a large team of eminent scholars, if he mean the natural languages he spoke every day?

You talk about common sense. Would it not be common sense to assume that Paul would have defined tongues as his natural languages instead of the language of ecstacy?

And what does Paul mean when he says (in all the translations I have quoted) that when a person speaks in a tongue he speaks to God?

So why would it be limited to public gatherings if Paul's definition of tongues included speaking to God. Where do we speak to God?

And what's the point of speaking in tongues to people, like you said that Paul used his natural language to tell people the gospel, if he is teaching that no man understands a person when he speaks in tongues? This is a contradiction. On the one hand you are saying that Paul speaks in tongues, in understandable languages to preach the gospel; and on the other hand he teaches that when a person speaks in tongues no one understands him. Huh? How can people understand and not understand tongues at the same time?



And if a person is speaking to God, and no one understands him, then who are the mysteries directed to? Well, it is plain, isn't it? The person is speaking mysteries to God.

Now you are discounting that because you are saying that God knows all mysteries and does not need to hear them from us. Yet, Paul is clearly saying that a person is talking mysteries to God. Therefore your view is contrary to Paul's view of it.

Isn't it interesting that this very scholarly produced NEB says that the person who speaks in tongues is 'no doubt inspired'. Do you think they made that bit up? Not likely. English Scholars are very very particular about accuracy. So that is the impression they got from the Greek.

Now, how is it that Paul says that tongues is 'no doubt' inspired - meaning inspired by God (who else?), and yet you say he is speaking his own natural languages,

You seem to be implying that the Charismatics and Pentecostal's view on tongues is partly because of mistranslations caused by translators adding bits to the text to make it sound right to them. Yet I have shown a number of different versions where there is no doubt of the composite meaning of the text, and there is no way that the meaning could be changed through any added bits.

Now how are you going to convince me that this verse does not mean what it literally says? You are going to have to give me more than just your repeated assertions. You need to back them up with Scripture or scholarly research to justify your assertions. Just repeating them like you have been with your answers to me is not good scholarship. You have to justify your statements, like I have tried to do from the different versions I have used to make my points.

 

[zeke37]

Now Zeke, I was kind to you in my last post, but now let the joust recommence!

ungarde

If we look at 1Corinthians14:2 in several versions, we can get composite view of what the verse is telling us.

Incorrect. We can learn what MAN has to say about them.

New American:

For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God; for no-one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
The marginal read for 'understands' gives 'hears', and the one for 'in his spirit' gives an alternative 'by the Spirit'.

This doesn't stray to far from the KJV, which is IMO the best English translation. Other translations are directed certain theological beliefs, hence the differences. With the KJV, we can go back tot he original words fairly easily. It is a good work, but as the letter in the front says, it is not inspired. It is a work of men, who tried really hard to get it right, much like all the other translations. Since most came after the KJV, they seem in contrast at times for the translators bias, whether that bias be right or wrong.

The Amplified Bible (which seeks to give the various senses of the Greek words in the verse)

For one who speaks in an [unknown] tongue speaks not to men but to God, for no one understands or catches his meaning, because in the (Holy) Spirit he utters secret truths and hidden things [not obvious to the understanding].
In the introduction to the Amplified Bible it says that the square brackets 'contain justified clarifying words or comments not actually expressed in the immediate original text.

This translation is misleading, and theologically driven. Use a Green's Interlinear and see for your self.

The New KJV

For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
Notice that this verse agrees with the marginal reading of the NAV and the AB in the phrase 'in the spirit'.

The word in Greek is ruach, and can mean many things...air, breath, spirit of man, Spirit of God, the breath of life body, verse dependant. Not much different than the KJV.

The New English Bible

When a man is using the language of ecstasy he is talking with God, not with men, for no man understands him; he is no doubt inspired, but he speaks mysteries.

Horrible interpretation.
misleading and theologically driven.

This verse was translated with scholars representing the Baptist Union of Great Britain

The Church of England
The Church of Scotland
The Congregational Church of England and Wales
The Council of Churches for Wales
The Irish Council of Churches
The Society of Friends (Quakers)
The Methodist Church of Great Britain
The Presbyterian Church of England
The British and Foreign Bible Society
The National Bible Society of Scotland

OK, but that holds NO weight with me, whatsoever.

So it is not a lightweight translation by any means, and it would have been very thoroughly researched. Probably much more thoroughly than the KJV.

I doubt it. But maybe so. Research is not a proof of correctness.

And with so many representatives from so many church demoninations and organisations, there would have been many differing opinions about the meaning of words.

Depends on what their motivation was. Was it to produce a version of the bible which supported their beliefs. IMO, Yes it was.

I am making a big point about that translation because it talks of tongues being 'the language of ecstacy'.

Theologically driven, Ecstasy is not mentioned nor implied in the manuscripts, which we can both view for ourselves.

It does not imply any of the natural languages that Paul knew. Why would Paul call tongues the language of ecstasy, which would have been the agreed meaning of the Greek put forward by such a large team of eminent scholars, if he mean the natural languages he spoke every day?

Paul does not use the term ecstasy, nor imply it. The so called scholar's did. And IMO, their interpretation is in direct opposition to the other biblical references of prayer and God speaking.

You talk about common sense. Would it not be common sense to assume that Paul would have defined tongues as his natural languages instead of the language of ecstasy?

He did, he said, glossa...which means language.

And what does Paul mean when he says (in all the translations I have quoted) that when a person speaks in a tongue he speaks to God?

The meaning is....if Paul (or anyone) spoke a language that was "not known" to those listening, then God would in essence only be talking to God. The people there wouldn't have a clue what was being said. It would be like barbarian speech. They wouldn't even know when to say Amen. Get the picture?
That is why the word "unknown" was added by the translators of the KJV, because it is not in the manuscripts.

So why would it be limited to public gatherings if Paul's definition of tongues included speaking to God. Where do we speak to God?

What is limited? You misunderstood what Paul was teaching. Only God and the angels would understand Paul (or anyone) if the crowd couldn't understand their tongue.

And what's the point of speaking in tongues to people, like you said that Paul used his natural language to tell people the gospel, if he is teaching that no man understands a person when he speaks in tongues?

Foreign to the people being spoken to. Common sense.

This is a contradiction. On the one hand you are saying that Paul speaks in tongues,

(many different languages) called tongues.

in understandable languages to preach the gospel; and on the other hand he teaches that when a person speaks in tongues no one understands him.

when a person speaks in a foreign tongue, those listening can't understand.

Huh? How can people understand and not understand tongues at the same time?

Well, I think I cleared that up above. Of course they could not do both. They need a translator to understand the foreign language...that is why the speaker is to bring and interpreter with him when he preaches, so that the people in attendance, could hear the message. The speaker speaks and understands one language, while the people listening understand another. An interpreter is need. Paul spoke many languages and didn't need an interpreter (as was his point on saying that he spoke more tongues(languages) than the rest.

And if a person is speaking to God, and no one understands him, then who are the mysteries directed to?

They are not directed, they are MYSTERIES.

Well, it is plain, isn't it? The person is speaking mysteries to God.

No, the person is speaking MYSTERIOUSLY to the people because of the language barrier. and only God can understand him. The people can't because they don't understand his language. If they didn't use and interpreter, they wouldn't even know when to say Amen.

Now you are discounting that because you are saying that God knows all mysteries and does not need to hear them from us. Yet, Paul is clearly saying that a person is talking mysteries to God. Therefore your view is contrary to Paul's view of it.

I explained that above. God understands all languages, where as people do not. That is why it is mysterious, to them, but God always understands intelligent speech.

Isn't it interesting that this very scholarly produced NEB says that the person who speaks in tongues is 'no doubt inspired'. Do you think they made that bit up? Not likely. English Scholars are very very particular about accuracy. So that is the impression they got from the Greek.

The NEB is theologically driven. But if you translate the word 'tongues' properly to 'languages' then I agree that to preach the Word into other nations of foreigners who speak a foreign tongue(language) than you do, is indeed Inspired.

Now, how is it that Paul says that tongues is 'no doubt' inspired - meaning inspired by God (who else?), and yet you say he is speaking his own natural languages,

Paul is speaking many different languages. He is a linguist. The rules are set for expanding the message beyond the Jews and to the gentiles. Inspiration of God can be given in any language, English, french, polish, Hebrew, Greek, whatever...

So, a language(s) of man, yes, and fully inspired...because the fruit proves the presence of the Holy Spirit.

You seem to be implying that the Charismatics and Pentecostals view on tongues is partly because of mistranslations caused by translators adding bits to the text to make it sound right to them.

As your examples above show.

Yet I have shown a number of different versions where there is no doubt of the composite meaning of the text, and there is no way that the meaning could be changed through any added bits.

Of course they were changed. The word ecstatic/ecstasy is not in the manuscripts. Tongues=languages is in the manuscripts.

Now how are you going to convince me that this verse does not mean what it literally says?

It means just what it says in the KJV, but not in an ecstasy driven translation. That work will tell you just what you want to hear.

You are going to have to give me more than just your repeated assertions. You need to back them up with Scripture or scholarly research to justify your assertions.

I prove all things by scripture, not the commentary of man, or his traditions.

Just repeating them like you have been with your answers to me is not good scholarship. You have to justify your statements, like I have tried to do from the different versions I have used to make my points.

To be honest in study, we must leave all preconceived notions at the door and just follow the manuscripts. The charismatic tongue is not mentioned nor implied anywhere in them. You keep saying over and over again that the ' tongue' mentioned is NOT just languages or foreign languages (as the manuscripts say) but rather that they are ecstatic utterances made by a prayer and/or by God. God doesn't speak that way, and there is the whole Word to prove that.

in His service
c

 

[billychum]

Great post!

Billy <><