1 Cor 11 "this is my body" in communion vs Literal historic accounts

[BobRyan]

Even after our Lord tried so desperately to explain what He really meant

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”

Yeah, I can see how He'd want to get shut of people who took Him at His word.

So you're saying He intentionally mislead them? Interesting.

1. How many people bite someone in that John 6 chapter?
2. how disappointed was Christ (According to this text above) that Peter listened to that SAME explanation given to the group - and got the right message instead of trying to bite Him?

 

[Jipsah]

The issue of Real Presence etc. seems very abstract and divorced from our actual lives compared to that. I'm not saying that it's wrong to think about things but surely what wet think about should make some difference to our lives.

"60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?"
Still is a hard saying, innit?

 

[Swag365]

utterly false.
true

Does every disgruntled ex-Catholic become an unofficial spokesperson for the Church?

 

[Jipsah]

Nope, you are not content to let God do the talking. You have to add your own clarificatory footnote hence your many dismissive posts

As you wish.

 

[Swag365]

Well on the one hand I am glad to hear that - but on the other hand I have read some things about "one and the same sacrifice" claiming that Christ's death on the cross and also the power of the priest "to confect the body blood sould and divinity" of Christ in the mass - results not in a memorial of a sacrifice 2000 years ago -- but rather participation in that sacrifice with the actual flesh of the Son of God (and soul and divinity) confected by a priest who has the power to do it.

anyone can hold a memorial to anything they want -- they don't need "power" to "confect the body, blood ,soul and divinity" of God to have a memorial.

This article gives a good overview of the Catholic view:

The Mass as an Actual Sacrifice in Catholic Tradition - Faith Movement

 

[BobRyan]

But what is the difference practically then, (other than a difference of ideas)? Isn't the practical thing the remembrance of Jesus' life where death whereswhere je demonstrated God's totally good and self-sacrifical love? The issue of Real Presence etc. seems very abstract and divorced from our actual lives compared to that. I'm not saying that it's wrong to think about things but surely what wet think about should make some difference to our lives.

We have the "real presence" idea mentioned in the actual Bible in this form

1. "Wherever two or three are gathered in My name - there I AM in their midst" Matt 18:20
2. "Christ IN you the hope of glory" Col 1:27

• 27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

 

[RushMAN]

"60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?"
Still is a hard saying, innit?

Exactly. Those who deny by making His Real Presence symbolic are still walking away

 

[Jipsah]

The irony is that you and others fall into that same category of thinking he was literally teaching people to eat his flesh and drink his blood. The ones who thought it to be literal walked away from him.

Yeah, we're the poor deluded souls who think He meant what He said, right? Good job we have so many of the enlightened amongst us to tell us what He really meant.

 

[RushMAN]

Yeah, we're the poor deluded souls who think He meant what He said, right? Good job we have so many of the enlightened amongst us to tell us what He really meant.

Of course Christ could't have meant what he said now can He

 

[Jipsah]

Does every disgruntled ex-Catholic become an unofficial spokesperson for the Church?

Don't feel rained on, all of us who believe in the Real Presence keep getting called on to defend RCC doctrines that we often didn't even know about.

 

[BobRyan]

This article gives a good overview of the Catholic view:

The Mass as an Actual Sacrifice in Catholic Tradition - Faith Movement

Your link says --

". In the first canon of this 22nd Session, the Fathers of Trent define that in the Mass 'a true and proper sacrifice' is offered to God, and in the third canon they define that the sacrifice of the Mass is not a bare commemoration of the Cross but is itself propitiatory. It is offered, they say, 'for the sins, punishments, satisfactions and other necessities of the living and the dead'."

 

[BobRyan]

John 10: 7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep

John 15: 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Of course Christ could't have meant what he said now can He

His teaching required context... my fellow branches.

 

[Swag365]

Your link says --

". In the first canon of this 22nd Session, the Fathers of Trent define that in the Mass 'a true and proper sacrifice' is offered to God, and in the third canon they define that the sacrifice of the Mass is not a bare commemoration of the Cross but is itself propitiatory. It is offered, they say, 'for the sins, punishments, satisfactions and other necessities of the living and the dead'."

Yes. That is the Catholic view.

 

[BobRyan]

1. "Wherever two or three are gathered in My name - there I AM in their midst" Matt 18:20
2. "Christ IN you the hope of glory" Col 1:27

• 27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

So then yes - the real presence

Don't feel rained on, all of us who believe in the Real Presence keep getting called on to defend RCC doctrines

I never consider myself obligated to defend RCC doctrines - but affirm the real presence all the same.

 

[Jipsah]

1. "Wherever two or three are gathered in My name - there I AM in their midst" Matt 18:20
2. "Christ IN you the hope of glory" Col 1:27

• 27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

"Ooh I love to dance a little sidestep, Now they see me now they don’t—I’ve come and gone"

 

[Jipsah]

I never consider myself obligated to defend RCC doctrines - but affirm the real presence all the same.

As long as it's not in the Bread and Wine as our Lord said it was.

 

[Swag365]

Don't feel rained on, all of us who believe in the Real Presence keep getting called on to defend RCC doctrines that we often didn't even know about.

The issue is not about getting called on or defending, it is about misrepresenting a faith that you do not even hold. Naturally, if folks were discussing Anglican doctrine, you would not appreciate it if I jumped in and incorrectly told everyone what Anglicans teach, in contradiction to what Anglicans actually teach.

 

[lsume]

Yea, y'all are all in agreement that He was certainly saying almost anything other than what He said.

There is a huge difference between the two.

 

[BobRyan]

We have the "real presence" idea mentioned in the actual Bible in this form

1. "Wherever two or three are gathered in My name - there I AM in their midst" Matt 18:20
2. "Christ IN you the hope of glory" Col 1:27

• 27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

As long as it's not in the Bread and Wine as our Lord said it was.

This is a new claim I have never heard of before -- So you are saying that Christ said in the Bible "I am in the bread and wine"??

Now see? I knew I should have been reading more versions of the Bible if I waned to get everyone's view of it -- which version is that one ... exactly?

 

[BobRyan]

The issue is not about getting called on or defending, it is about misrepresenting a faith that you do not even hold. Naturally, if folks were discussing Anglican doctrine, you would not appreciate it if I jumped in and incorrectly told everyone what Anglicans teach, in contradiction to what Anglicans actually teach.

Ok that's a good point. I always prefer to get the news on what a given group believes from those actually in the said group.