“Church is a school for sinners, not a rest home for saints."

[Naomi4Christ]

Discuss

 

[archer75]

Can I ask where the quote is from?

 

[Naomi4Christ]

I found it on a COfE diocesan website. It wasn’t attributed to anyone.

 

[Albion]

I am inclined to say that church is neither of those things...at least not as the statement stands.

 

[JimBeta]

Even saints are sinners.

 

[Roseonathorn]

Even saints are sinners.

”saintlike” creatures fall into the sins of gluttony, bitterness, hateful thoughts, anger, pride, unforgiveness, resentment, greed, jolly, foolishness, stubborness, unwilling to reach out to people that are dying in their sins, fear of rejection, lukewarmness, speaking up when they should not and being quiet when they should speak up, minding their own business, putting the blinds on, making sure noone sees how little money or time they donate but talking about how important it is that we all give. Dressing like a detective or insuranceagent.

 

[Dave-W]

I am inclined to say that church is neither of those things...at least not as the statement stands.

Indeed.

Those who are not believers yet are by definition not part of the Church. And those who are believers cannot properly be called "sinners;" even though we all do sin - at least occasionally. We are new creatures, not sinners.

And as for the saints, (those set apart) there is only occasional rest as we are in a constant battle with the unholy trinity: the flesh, the world and the devil.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

”saintlike” creatures fall into the sins of gluttony, bitterness, hateful thoughts, anger, pride, unforgiveness, resentment, greed, jolly, foolishness, stubborness, unwilling to reach out to people that are dying in their sins, fear of rejection, lukewarmness, speaking up when they should not and being quiet when they should speak up, minding their own business, putting the blinds on, making sure noone sees how little money or time they donate but talking about how important it is that we all give. Dressing like a detective or insuranceagent.

For sure

 

[Naomi4Christ]

Indeed.

Those who are not believers yet are by definition not part of the Church. And those who are believers cannot properly be called "sinners;" even though we all do sin - at least occasionally. We are new creatures, not sinners.

And as for the saints, (those set apart) there is only occasional rest as we are in a constant battle with the unholy trinity: the flesh, the world and the devil.

We are sinners all the time. It is not an occasional thing. In thought, word and deed. I am sinning now in my thoughts.

 

[Paidiske]

Can I ask where the quote is from?

Augustine. The original version was "The church is not a hotel for saints, it is a hospital for sinners."

I must admit I find the idea of a hospital resonates more deeply than a school. We need to learn, sure, but more deeply than that we need healing and wholeness.

 

[everbecoming2007]

Augustine. The original version was "The church is not a hotel for saints, it is a hospital for sinners."

I must admit I find the idea of a hospital resonates more deeply than a school. We need to learn, sure, but more deeply than that we need healing and wholeness.

I also resonate more with the idea of the church as a hospital rather than a school for sinners. I mean, prisoners are schools for sinners, too, but not in a healthy way usually.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

Augustine. The original version was "The church is not a hotel for saints, it is a hospital for sinners."

I must admit I find the idea of a hospital resonates more deeply than a school. We need to learn, sure, but more deeply than that we need healing and wholeness.

I imagine that hospital didn’t have the same meaning to Augustine as it does to us.

Funnily enough, we have some schools here called hospitals, such as Christ’s Hospital

I like the idea of lifelong learning, rather than a quick fix.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

From the Christ’s Hospital website:

During the Middle Ages, hospitals served different functions from modern institutions. Medieval hospitals were alms houses for the poor, hostels for pilgrims, or hospital schools. The word “hospital” derives from the Latin noun hospitium and came to signify hospitality.

 

[Paidiske]

I imagine that hospital didn’t have the same meaning to Augustine as it does to us.

Actually, you'd be surprised. In Christian Rome, there were hospitals: "Following First Council of Nicaea in 325 CE construction of a hospital in every cathedral town was begun. Among the earliest were those built by the physician Saint Sampson in Constantinople and by Basil, bishop of Caesarea in modern-day Turkey. Called the "Basilias", the latter resembled a city and included housing for doctors and nurses and separate buildings for various classes of patients. There was a separate section for lepers. Some hospitals maintained libraries and training programs, and doctors compiled their medical and pharmacological studies in manuscripts. Thus in-patient medical care in the sense of what we today consider a hospital, was an invention driven by Christian mercy and Byzantine innovation. Byzantine hospital staff included the Chief Physician (archiatroi), professional nurses (hypourgoi) and the orderlies (hyperetai). By the twelfth century, Constantinople had two well-organized hospitals, staffed by doctors who were both male and female. Facilities included systematic treatment procedures and specialized wards for various diseases."

After the fall of Rome they became more monastic in the west, and took on the range of functions you describe (alms houses etc).