“Be Not Deceived”

WordSword

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I believe some Christians think they have nearness to the Lord and spiritual rest who very little understand either the one or the other. It is quite possible for a soul to rest satisfied with a certain quietude, and to be in a certain degree devoted and devotional, who is not near the Lord in glory. It is quite possible for a believer to go on in great darkness with a good conscience, their good works and good reputation stand them in good stead, and they go on without exercise, save now and again they are distressed when thy have fallen below their own standard.

The conscience is no criterion unless it is daily enlightened by the Word of God. The power and wonders of God never touch you like the “still small voice” of the Word. Your feet are washed by His words to your soul, and the soul that trembles at His Word is the one that is really near Him, walking in “the fear of the Lord, which is the beginning of wisdom.”

You will always find that there is more reverence and fear of the Lord in a soul that is walking near Him than in one who feels less the evil within and without, and therefore assumes to be happy and in a place of nearness and rest which in truth he is not.* Reverence and value for the Word of God is an external test as to whether one is walking close to Him. The Word is regarded not merely as a marvelous revelation, but in relation to himself individually. Not a word does he quote of it that does not send its ring to his soul of its quality and metal—if he is nigh to the Lord.

There is also an internal test, if I may say so. If you tell me what your soul is occupied with I can tell you where you are, and I believe every person is often very well satisfied with himself for a good long prayer (don’t smile, we have hearts often deceitful); again for visiting a needy one; and again, because we have acquitted ourselves to the approbation of others. A still more insidious condition is that of occupation with our own failures. How often does one think of his state because he has raked up its evil (and even that is only the kind he feels most)! True, most true, you must see the evil when entering into the light; but you cannot enjoy the Lord until the clouds have been removed by His Word declaring His grace to the owning soul.

I have mentioned what would prove that the soul was not near the Lord. I must just add that the one great expressive mark that a soul is nigh the Lord is that he is receiving light and instruction from Him. You may find Christians very good and proper who are really thinking more of themselves than of the Lord Jesus, who is their Life, exacting love and consideration instead of truly being in the fear of the Lord laboring to confer it. Whenever a soul makes itself the object, the Lord is distant from it.

- J B Stoney




Poster’s Opinion:

* “which in truth he is not”: Not that there isn’t a desire for nearness, but that nearness to the Lord cannot be well known until the awareness of the sinful nature in us is sufficiently realized. I believe the more aware the saints are of the ongoing presence and the decadent levels of the “old man” within, the more we will understand the holiness of God; and the more we will come to understand our forgiveness in the dependence on Christ’s expiation—and the “acceptance” of our Father (Eph 1:6).




Excerpt from MJS devotional for March 14:

“The true value of anything is known only when it is wanted. For this reason bright days must be succeeded by dark ones. In the dreary and desolate hour to nature, we begin to know the value of the truth communicated to us in the bright day. The learning is at one time, and the proving at another. In fact, we ought to be prepared for the dark hour; so that, though it be dark, there is something so blessed, so suited, pouring its comfort and sustenance on our souls, that, after all, the dark and dreary hour becomes a more really festive time to the heart, because of the virtues of the truth now made known, than the time of its reception, which was so happy and exhilarating.” -J.B.S.
http://www.abideabove.com/hungry-heart/
 
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fhansen

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I believe some Christians think they have nearness to the Lord and spiritual rest who very little understand either the one or the other. It is quite possible for a soul to rest satisfied with a certain quietude, and to be in a certain degree devoted and devotional, who is not near the Lord in glory. It is quite possible for a believer to go on in great darkness with a good conscience, their good works and good reputation stand them in good stead, and they go on without exercise, save now and again they are distressed when thy have fallen below their own standard.

The conscience is no criterion unless it is daily enlightened by the Word of God. The power and wonders of God never touch you like the “still small voice” of the Word. Your feet are washed by His words to your soul, and the soul that trembles at His Word is the one that is really near Him, walking in “the fear of the Lord, which is the beginning of wisdom.”

You will always find that there is more reverence and fear of the Lord in a soul that is walking near Him than in one who feels less the evil within and without, and therefore assumes to be happy and in a place of nearness and rest which in truth he is not.* Reverence and value for the Word of God is an external test as to whether one is walking close to Him. The Word is regarded not merely as a marvelous revelation, but in relation to himself individually. Not a word does he quote of it that does not send its ring to his soul of its quality and metal—if he is nigh to the Lord.

There is also an internal test, if I may say so. If you tell me what your soul is occupied with I can tell you where you are, and I believe every person is often very well satisfied with himself for a good long prayer (don’t smile, we have hearts often deceitful); again for visiting a needy one; and again, because we have acquitted ourselves to the approbation of others. A still more insidious condition is that of occupation with our own failures. How often does one think of his state because he has raked up its evil (and even that is only the kind he feels most)! True, most true, you must see the evil when entering into the light; but you cannot enjoy the Lord until the clouds have been removed by His Word declaring His grace to the owning soul.

I have mentioned what would prove that the soul was not near the Lord. I must just add that the one great expressive mark that a soul is nigh the Lord is that he is receiving light and instruction from Him. You may find Christians very good and proper who are really thinking more of themselves than of the Lord Jesus, who is their Life, exacting love and consideration instead of truly being in the fear of the Lord laboring to confer it. Whenever a soul makes itself the object, the Lord is distant from it.

- J B Stoney




Poster’s Opinion:

* “which in truth he is not”: Not that there isn’t a desire for nearness, but that nearness to the Lord cannot be well known until the awareness of the sinful nature in us is sufficiently realized. I believe the more aware the saints are of the ongoing presence and the decadent levels of the “old man” within, the more we will understand the holiness of God; and the more we will come to understand our forgiveness in the dependence on Christ’s expiation—and the “acceptance” of our Father (Eph 1:6).




Excerpt from MJS devotional for March 14:

“The true value of anything is known only when it is wanted. For this reason bright days must be succeeded by dark ones. In the dreary and desolate hour to nature, we begin to know the value of the truth communicated to us in the bright day. The learning is at one time, and the proving at another. In fact, we ought to be prepared for the dark hour; so that, though it be dark, there is something so blessed, so suited, pouring its comfort and sustenance on our souls, that, after all, the dark and dreary hour becomes a more really festive time to the heart, because of the virtues of the truth now made known, than the time of its reception, which was so happy and exhilarating.” -J.B.S.
None But The Hungry Heart
As long as it doesn't conflict with this:
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." James 1:27
We can think we're close to God and that we're saved, but if there are no fruits, no compassion for "the least of these", for example, then our thoughts and feelings and personal faith assessment mean little. I'm not saying that Mr Stoney would disagree-IDK.
 
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WordSword

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There are a lot of people who go through life believing they are "saved" until they actually get saved. Then they look back and realize how wrong they were.
Hi and thanks for your instructional reply! How true it is that God's love manifests itself in bringing those who truly seek Him to salvation, which nothing can hinder.

I believe this article is in reference to those who are saved, but have yet to mature unto a closeness with the Lord. This eventually comes to all who are reborn (Phil 2:13), which requires time. Just as we "live in the Spirit," it requires time to mature in a "walk in the Spirit" (Gal 5:25).

Good insightful comment!
 
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Phil 1:21

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Hi and thanks for your instructional reply! How true it is that God's love manifests itself in bringing those who truly seek Him to salvation, which nothing can hinder.

I believe this article is in reference to those who are saved, but have yet to mature unto a closeness with the Lord. This eventually comes to all who are reborn (Phil 2:13), which requires time. Just as we "live in the Spirit," it requires time to mature in a "walk in the Spirit" (Gal 5:25).

Good insightful comment!
Amen to that. Sanctification is a process, not an event.
 
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WordSword

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As long as it doesn't conflict with this:
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." James 1:27
We can think we're close to God and that we're saved, but if there are no fruits, no compassion for "the least of these", for example, then our thoughts and feelings and personal faith assessment mean little. I'm not saying that Mr Stoney would disagree-IDK.
True Fhan, but it must be known that the fruit does not effect nearness but rather manifests (justifies) the nearness. What effects (produces) salvation is what also effects its fruit (the Spirit). The believer merely manifests the fruit, as the branch bears (manifests - Jhn 15:8) the fruit, and the Vine effects it.

Thanks for the input!
 
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fhansen

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True Fhan, but it must be known that the fruit does not effect nearness but rather manifests (justifies) the nearness. What effects (produces) salvation is what also effects its fruit (the Spirit). The believer merely manifests the fruit, as the branch bears (manifests - Jhn 15:8) the fruit, and the Vine effects it.

Thanks for the input!
Thank you. My main point is that the fruit must be there-or else the rest is just talk.

And I think that what effects salvation is a total package deal, one that is worked out, with us remaining in Christ, He in us, and we responding to grace, doing His will throughout, and getting back up if we fall away again-persevering in the walk.
 
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WordSword

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Thank you. My main point is that the fruit must be there-or else the rest is just talk.

And I think that what effects salvation is a total package deal, one that is worked out, with us remaining in Christ, He in us, and we responding to grace, doing His will throughout, and getting back up if we fall away again-persevering in the walk.
Amen, the fruit will eventually be there for all who are reborn, because God "works in you to desire and do His good pleasure" (PHil 2:13). James said if the fruit be absent--so is the faith (dead; nonexistent - Jam 2:17, 20, 26).

Amen to the rest of your comment also!
 
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Theophan

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I believe some Christians think they have nearness to the Lord and spiritual rest who very little understand either the one or the other. It is quite possible for a soul to rest satisfied with a certain quietude, and to be in a certain degree devoted and devotional, who is not near the Lord in glory. It is quite possible for a believer to go on in great darkness with a good conscience, their good works and good reputation stand them in good stead, and they go on without exercise, save now and again they are distressed when thy have fallen below their own standard.

The conscience is no criterion unless it is daily enlightened by the Word of God. The power and wonders of God never touch you like the “still small voice” of the Word. Your feet are washed by His words to your soul, and the soul that trembles at His Word is the one that is really near Him, walking in “the fear of the Lord, which is the beginning of wisdom.”

You will always find that there is more reverence and fear of the Lord in a soul that is walking near Him than in one who feels less the evil within and without, and therefore assumes to be happy and in a place of nearness and rest which in truth he is not.* Reverence and value for the Word of God is an external test as to whether one is walking close to Him. The Word is regarded not merely as a marvelous revelation, but in relation to himself individually. Not a word does he quote of it that does not send its ring to his soul of its quality and metal—if he is nigh to the Lord.

There is also an internal test, if I may say so. If you tell me what your soul is occupied with I can tell you where you are, and I believe every person is often very well satisfied with himself for a good long prayer (don’t smile, we have hearts often deceitful); again for visiting a needy one; and again, because we have acquitted ourselves to the approbation of others. A still more insidious condition is that of occupation with our own failures. How often does one think of his state because he has raked up its evil (and even that is only the kind he feels most)! True, most true, you must see the evil when entering into the light; but you cannot enjoy the Lord until the clouds have been removed by His Word declaring His grace to the owning soul.

I have mentioned what would prove that the soul was not near the Lord. I must just add that the one great expressive mark that a soul is nigh the Lord is that he is receiving light and instruction from Him. You may find Christians very good and proper who are really thinking more of themselves than of the Lord Jesus, who is their Life, exacting love and consideration instead of truly being in the fear of the Lord laboring to confer it. Whenever a soul makes itself the object, the Lord is distant from it.

- J B Stoney




Poster’s Opinion:

* “which in truth he is not”: Not that there isn’t a desire for nearness, but that nearness to the Lord cannot be well known until the awareness of the sinful nature in us is sufficiently realized. I believe the more aware the saints are of the ongoing presence and the decadent levels of the “old man” within, the more we will understand the holiness of God; and the more we will come to understand our forgiveness in the dependence on Christ’s expiation—and the “acceptance” of our Father (Eph 1:6).




Excerpt from MJS devotional for March 14:

“The true value of anything is known only when it is wanted. For this reason bright days must be succeeded by dark ones. In the dreary and desolate hour to nature, we begin to know the value of the truth communicated to us in the bright day. The learning is at one time, and the proving at another. In fact, we ought to be prepared for the dark hour; so that, though it be dark, there is something so blessed, so suited, pouring its comfort and sustenance on our souls, that, after all, the dark and dreary hour becomes a more really festive time to the heart, because of the virtues of the truth now made known, than the time of its reception, which was so happy and exhilarating.” -J.B.S.
None But The Hungry Heart

I seldom encounter any Christians who endorse these teachings.

Now, it is prevalent to delude ourselves into pseudo-joy, pseudo-peace, pseudo-satisfaction, pseudo-holiness, etc. by reading certain scriptures that sufficiently convince us of a false spiritual state.

Let us heed these wise words, brethren, and not consider ourselves exempt from these exhortations.
 
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WordSword

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I seldom encounter any Christians who endorse these teachings.
Hi Theo, and appreciate your reply, but I'm uncertain of what teachings you mean.

Now, it is prevalent to delude ourselves into pseudo-joy, pseudo-peace, pseudo-satisfaction, pseudo-holiness, etc. by reading certain scriptures that sufficiently convince us of a false spiritual state.
Wouldn't "a false (pseudo) spiritual state evince one who is an unbeliever? --because God will not lead those who are reborn into self-deception.

A babe in Christ can be misled by self or anyone until they being maturing, but never to the point that can affect union with God, for He ensures their "desire" is for "His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13).

God bless!
 
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Theophan

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Hi Theo, and appreciate your reply, but I'm uncertain of what teachings you mean.


Wouldn't "a false (pseudo) spiritual state evince one who is an unbeliever? --because God will not lead those who are reborn into self-deception.

A babe in Christ can be misled by self or anyone until they being maturing, but never to the point that can affect union with God, for He ensures their "desire" is for "His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13).

God bless!

The teachings I refer to are listed in your original post. Those teachings.

A false spiritual state is not ever God's fault. We do not always follow Christ, do we? If being a Christian means that we have renounced our own will, taken up our Cross, and are following Christ, then we do well in asserting this. But examine reality and you will find none of us perfectly accomplishing this. Who is at fault here? God? Or is it us?

When we sin, are we serving the Truth or the father of lies? Certainly, we would never say that we are worshiping God by sinning! He who is not with Me is against Me.

God led the Israelites out of Egypt. What happened? Only Joshua and Caleb and their house entered the promised land. What happened to the hundreds of thousands of other Israelites?

You are right in saying, "God will not lead those who are reborn into self-deception". No, of course not! I am emphasizing that our free will must cooperate with His grace; otherwise, we come to no other end but self-deception.

Examine your day, and if you have any dept of spiritual perception, you will see the multitude of sins that you have committed without hesitation. Were you following Christ then? No.

Phil 2:13 is not a prooftext that substantiates the idea that God hijacks our free will and that He ensures that we will always perform His will. That is not how it works. He gives us the desire for Him, He helps us accomplish His works, but we must also choose Him and make our own efforts in cooperation with His grace. Irresistable grace is a false doctrine.
 
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Theophan

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I'm sorry, but we would need to address which teachings you mean in the first post.

Every single paragraph by JB Stoney as well as the MJS Devotional. I am sorry for my laziness. Read each paragraph, identify their teachings, and understand that I agree with them.
 
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WordSword

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Phil 2:13 is not a prooftext that substantiates the idea that God hijacks our free will and that He ensures that we will always perform His will.
After rebirth we need God to cause us to "desire and do His good pleasure," it's part of the package. If we do not have or loose the desire for Him it means He has never "worked" it in us. This "work" cannot come about by self intention but only by Him causing it to occur. Otherwise we are left to think we can perform this on our own.

I also believe that once He "works" in us it will be permanent, or it was just self, because it cannot be rightly understood that God would fail to do this "work" in those reborn. It always comes down to whether we believe faith is permanent or can be temporal.

Blessings!
 
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Theophan

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After rebirth we need God to cause us to "desire and do His good pleasure," it's part of the package. If we do not have or loose the desire for Him it means He has never "worked" it in us. This "work" cannot come about by self intention but only by Him causing it to occur. Otherwise we are left to think we can perform this on our own.

I also believe that once He "works" in us it will be permanent, or it was just self, because it cannot be rightly understood that God would fail to do this "work" in those reborn. It always comes down to whether we believe faith is permanent or can be temporal.

Blessings!

I agree with the first paragraph. That's fine.

Explain how everything else you just said doesn't destroy free will?

Also, you hardly addressed any of my other points contradicting you.
 
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WordSword

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Explain how everything you just said doesn't destroy free will?
I do not believe in free will after rebirth, because of the Spirit's work (Gal 5:17), and the Father's "work" (Phil 2:13).

Also, you hardly addressed any of my other points contradicting you.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand our discussions enough to know what you mean. But it's certain we do not have the same beliefs concerning many Christian issues.
 
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Theophan

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I do not believe in free will after rebirth, because of the Spirit's work (Gal 5:17), and the Father's "work" (Phil 2:13).


I'm sorry, but I don't understand our discussions enough to know what you mean. But it's certain we do not have the same beliefs concerning many Christian issues.

You argue that free will is destroyed after rebirth. You greatly err. If that were the case, explain to me how you continue sinning? Do you dare to attribute this to God? Is this not your own will being manifest?

And you also err on your supposition that 'being led by the Spirit' and 'walking in the Spirit' means that we have no free will. If these things are automatically occurring, why in the world would Paul even exhort his flocks with these words? That would be superfluous!
 
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WordSword

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If that were the case, explain to me how you continue sinning?
Thanks, I understand you here. Those reborn sin because we still have the sinful nature, but the issue is that it's not our will nor desire to sin. The only way to live without sinning is to live without the sinful nature, which can't be in this life.

We cannot have the old man and live without sinning!
 
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Theophan

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Thanks, I understand you here. Those reborn sin because we still have the sinful nature, but the issue is that it's not our will nor desire to sin. The only way to live without sinning is to live without the sinful nature, which can't be in this life.

We cannot have the old man and live without sinning!

So you are saying that the supposed sinful nature is responsible for sin? You yourself have no responsibility for your sin since you're reborn?

Since you say that those who are reborn have no will or desire to sin, do you then reject the idea that we should repent when we sin? It sounds like you're saying that we can't stop ourselves from sinning. We have no control. If we have no control, why would God ever chastise us for sinning since He knows we can't help it. And why is His will not prevailing over our old man's will to sin?

You see how this doesn't make sense?
You are saying that God's will has taken over you since you're reborn, and you are also saying that you old man's sinful will still compels you to sin. This poses a few problems. 1) It makes God's will seem weak or evil since He doesn't intervene to prevent the old man from driving you to sin. 2) Saying that your old man compels you to sin frees you from being guilty of sin since you did not will or desire it, supposedly.

These things are not reality. This is not how life works.
 
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