“About The Great Tribulation”

[iamlamad]

The meek inherit the earth, brother, not heaven. And your interpretation of Noah and Lot and destruction is just that, an interpretation. You might be right, but it is one of many possibilities including what I shared.

Blessings.
Ken

Let's look:

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Notice: they did eath, they drank, they married wives...in other words just living a normal life - UNTIL THE DAY.....They imagined it would be a day just like yesterday, eat, drink, etc. But they all died.

For Lot, the same thing, living a normal life "but the same day..." They woke up expecting a day just like yesterday was - a normal day - but they all died that day.

It seems Jesus purpose in bringing these up is ONLY for the timing: the same day.

Yes, the meek will inherit the earth - but this does not PRECLUDE them spending 7 years in heaven - does it?

 

[iamlamad]

Revelation 7 and 14 does explicitly teach that the 144,000 firstfruits of the harvest are sealed before the Great multitude from every Gentile nation. The 144,000 are sealed before the Gospel goes out to the Gentile nations within the 1st Century context.

Do you pay ANY attention to John's chronology? You should because he paid great attention to it. Or should I say, God, showing John the visions gave great attention to it.

WHERE is John, timing wise, in chapter 7? Is he still in first century? Not a chance! The 6th seal is still future to us today. So in timing, chapter 7 will be right after the rapture of the church and the 6th seal events.

 

[iamlamad]

When the AoD is introduced the Church is removed out of the way, yet the Great Tribulation is for the Church and it ends at the introduction of the AoD. The body of Christ remnant who remain from 1290 to 1335 day symbolic marker are said to be blessed. Yet the majority of the Church is removed.

Wow! I don't think I followed any of this.
WHERE is the church when the abomination takes place? Jesus (with Daniel and John) taught us that the abomination would be what divides the week into two equal halves. We see John listing the last half in days, months and years, in chapters 11 through 13. They are therefore MIDPOINT chapters. That is, the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week.

So where does the 70th week begin? It begins at the 7th seal, and ends at the 7th vial. The midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet. God uses 7's to mark the 70th week.

So where in Revelation is the church "removed?" After the 5th seal - the martyrs of the church age, and before the 6th seal that starts God's wrath. God will not set any appointments for us with His wrath - and His wrath begins at the 6th seal. We the church are GONE when the 6th seal hits.

The days of GT are NOT for the church! They are for ISRAEL. Did you not read how Daniel wrote that the 70 weeks of years is for HIS PEOPLE? The days of GT are most certainly a part of the 70th week, coming as Jesus said after the abomination.

Agreed, there WILL BE a remnant at the midpoint (chapter 12) because the main load will have gone out at the pretrib rapture.

Who said the 1290 and 1335 are symbolic? They are pointing to two events that will take place AFTER the week has ended. The last 1260 days will end at the 7th vial. But some event will come 30 days later. Perhaps it will be when Jesus captures the Beast and False prophet and throws them into the lake of fire. Perhaps it will Jesus COMING.

Then another 45 days later another event. Will it be the official start of the Millennial reign? I don't know.

 

[iamlamad]

You wrote: Hence, the 70th week ends when the Trumpet of God declares time no longer

I wrote: This is a poor translation. God is not ending time here, for there remains the 1000 year reign. No, the best translations tell us there will be no more DELAY in time.

The truth is, the 70th week ends at the 7th VIAL. God marked the 70th week with 7's: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it.

It speaks of the reaping from the harvest of God. The Trumpet declares that there is no more names to be added to the Book of Life and no reason for conversions after this point at Christ's return.

I have no idea where you get this idea. You think no one can be saved after the 7th trumpet?
How about the sheep at the sheep and goat judgment?

The fifth seal seals the 144,000 firstfruits of the harvest and then the Great Tribulation begins within the 1st century context when Saint Stephan was martyred and is to this very day. We are in the 70th week. 70th week ends at the Abomination of Desolation.

I disagree. The 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age and has nothing to do with the 144,000 Hebrew men. I would say TRIBULATION began when King Herod killed James. There have been times over church history that the tribulation was great. But the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of will not start until the last half of the future 70th week of Daniel.

We are NOT in the 70th week. It will not start until the 7th seal is opened and the 7th seal will not be opened until the 6th seal and the 6th seal will not take place until the church is raptured. We are STILL HERE! Therefore NONE of these things have happened.

Next, men have studied out the first 69 weeks and found them to be weeks OF YEARS. In the book, "The Coming Prince" the time from the command to rebuild Jerusalem and the walls to the time the Messiah was suppose to show up ended up being exactly 69 weeks of years, or 173,880 days. It was an extremely accurate prophecy. Since the first 69 weeks and the time to the Mesisah was SO PRECISE, we must believe that the 70th week will be just as precise - and John PROVES this by giving us the last half of the week in days, months and years.

The 70th week will end at the 7th vial. Note: "it is done."

 

[iamlamad]

Read Revelation chapters 7 and 14 the 144,000 are the firstfruits of the harvest who sing the song of Moses. They are the Old Covenant former sea Daniel's people who were the first to be redeemed amongst men as declared to Daniel in Daniel 12. The 144,000 are before the Cross and before the Gospel goes out to the Gentile nations abroad.

Everything that happens in the 70th week is "old Covenant" because it is Daniel's 70th week for HIS people. The church has been removed. The 144,000 are sealed just before the trumpet judgments for their protection and are next seen IN HEAVEN, chapter 14, which is a midpoint of the week chapter. So we are introduced to them just before the 70th week begins and then see them in heaven at the midpoint. Therefore I disagree with you.

The second group that comes after them are the great multitude from every Gentile nation who sing the song of the Lamb and make their robes white by the blood of the Lamb of God and who hold palm branches in their hands.

The second group will be the raptured church - which will be raptured just before the 6th seal - and then seen in heaven in the next chapter, shortly after the rapture. In other words, the church will be in heaven BEFORE God begins the 70th week.

The 144,000 are the firstfruits of the harvest and second to Christ the forerunner in the resurrection of the dead, that Paul mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:23 and John in Revelation 14 (before 3 angel messages). They are sealed and redeemed before the Great Gentile multitude as the firstfruits of the harvest before the Gospel even goes out to the Gentile nations.

Again I must disagree: Christ was the VERY FIRST to receive a resurrection body. But the next group will the THE church at the pretrib rapture. The 144,000 will be after the church. It seems you are thinking history when God is thinking prophecy of future events!

How can you state the following -

so they suddenly understand Jesus IS their Messiah, and they turn to Him and get born again. They are then seals for their protection during the trumpets and are then raptured to heaven as firstfruits.

"the 7th seal opens the week," (The Great Tribulation Week you refer to)

9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
(Revelation 6:9-11)

Those under the Altar of God are the 144,000 who have already departed and await the Lord to raise them up as the firstfruits of the harvest to be reaped/redeemed from amongst men. These have died for the Word of God, before the Lamb came to redeem them. Whilst the second group makes their robes white by the blood of the Lamb.

3“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. (Revelation 7:3-4)

The 144,000 do not go through the Great Tribulation and do not face the judgement vials poured out upon the inhabitants of the world for they are the Old Covenant redeemed in Revelation 6:9 and who were told to wait until their New Covenant brothers and sisters were to be born and redeemed as they were. The New Covenant Gentile numbers come to be fully accounted for in the Book of Life.

The narrative you present of the 144,000 being the firstfruits yet at the same time being the last to be born again begs belief.

Do you sincerely believe what you have stated is transparent and without contradictions?

After all when you start of by saying "It is my guess" then how much weight would you place on that guess after what is being brought to your attention?

My friend, when John does not tell us something, we all GUESS.

Now, how can I say? I said they are sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgments. It is EASY to say that because following John's chronology that is exactly what happens. They are sealed (contrary to what you believe) just before the 7th seal that starts "the tribulation" or the 70th week of Daniel - then the trumpets are the first events of the 70th week. And John even mentions at the 5th trumpet that these flying locusts that sting are NOT TO TOUCH those who are sealed - that is the 144,000. In other words, I said that because JOHN said that.

I did not call them "firstfruits" JOHN DID! The church is NOT firstfruits of the HEBREWS (as they are) becuase the church is mostly a GENTILE church.

Note carefully, the church is raptured, and then, after that, the 144,000 is sealed. So I ask you, WHY were they not raptured? Do you have a different opinion? John does not tell us so you will have to guess.

The 144,000 do not go through the Great Tribulation Right! They are raptured BEFORE the days of GT start. They are seen in heaven in chapter 14 and chapter 14 is a midpoint chapter and it is where God warns people NOT to take the mark. Therefore the mark is NOT YET being enforced when God gives His warning.

Those under the Altar of God are the 144,000 who have already departed
You are TOTALLY mistaken on those under the altar at the 5th seal. These are CHURCH AGE martyrs. God tells them they will have to wait for judgment until the very last church age martyr is killed - meaning - they must wait for the rapture that will END the church age. Notice, "the FULL number" God knows how many church martyrs there will be. And the very next event John tells us is the 6th seal and the start of God's wrath - so the rapture MUST come at the 5th seal or just before the 6th seal. These church age martyrs will be raptured before the 6th seal and taken to heaven - while at the same time or shortly after, the 144,000 are being seals for their protection.

By the way, there is NOT ONE HINT that any of the 144,000 are martyrs. What? Do you imagine God seal of protection was useless? No, they are raptured ALIVE Jesus as those alive in in Christ will be. Please, my friend, pay closer attention to John's chronology!

The narrative you present of the 144,000 being the firstfruits yet at the same time being the last to be born again begs belief.
My friend, the problem is not what I presented but your preconceived ideas that are in error. It is an absolute fact that Paul's rapture takes place a little while (perhaps a few days) before the 144,000 are sealed. Which really begs the question: WHY were the 144,000 not raptured? The ONLY answer I can come up with is that they were not "IN CHRIST" at the moment of the rapture. Again I have to guess for John does not tell us: HOW did these 144,000 who were NOT "in Christ" a few days before become worthy to be sealed? My only guess (john does not tell us) is that they realized AFTER the rapture that JESUS really WAS their messiah.

I did NOT say they were the "last" to be born again. My meaning was, they MUST have turned to Jesus AFTER the rapture of the church, else they too would have been raptured. With out a doubt, others will turn to Jesus after they are sealed.

Do you sincerely believe what you have stated is transparent and without contradictions? YES! Because it follows John precisely.

After all when you start of by saying "It is my guess" then how much weight would you place on that guess after what is being brought to your attention? When John does not tell us, a guess is all anyone has. I only guessed on what was NOT written. I almost copied word for word what WAS written.

 

[jgr]

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

• Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
• Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
• Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
• Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
• Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
• Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
• Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
• Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
• Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
• Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
• Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
• Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and oneness are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000

 

[Ken Rank]

Let's look:

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Notice: they did eath, they drank, they married wives...in other words just living a normal life - UNTIL THE DAY.....They imagined it would be a day just like yesterday, eat, drink, etc. But they all died.

For Lot, the same thing, living a normal life "but the same day..." They woke up expecting a day just like yesterday was - a normal day - but they all died that day.

It seems Jesus purpose in bringing these up is ONLY for the timing: the same day.

Yes, the meek will inherit the earth - but this does not PRECLUDE them spending 7 years in heaven - does it?

You're welcome to believe whatever you want brother. I do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, I believe it is easily taken down by Scripture, and any rapture will be at the end of the tribulation and very possibly horizontal and not vertical. And before you say, "no possible," remember, Phillip was raptured (harpazo) horizontally from where he and the Eunuch were, to a place about 20 miles away.

If you want the Scripture that takes down the pre-trib rapture, I can provide it. If not, that's fine... I don't care if you don't see things as I do, this isn't an issue tied to salvation.

 

[ToServe]

Do you pay ANY attention to John's chronology? You should because he paid great attention to it. Or should I say, God, showing John the visions gave great attention to it.

WHERE is John, timing wise, in chapter 7? Is he still in first century? Not a chance! The 6th seal is still future to us today. So in timing, chapter 7 will be right after the rapture of the church and the 6th seal events.

The 144,000 are sealed before the multitude. The 144,000 are before the Gentile Church.

 

[ToServe]

WHERE is the church when the abomination takes place?

On earth they are martyred and biologically killed off by the Beast ascending out of the Pitt. After 3.5 days (69.5 week to 70 week, remaining half of Daniel's prophetic 70th week) they are raised and in Heaven they are no longer the Church because their Commission has ended and now they become measured within the inner court of the Temple Jesus Christ.

Jesus (with Daniel and John) taught us that the abomination would be what divides the week into two equal halves.

Jesus Christ's divides the 70th week by his sacrifice that separated the ministry of the Old Covenant Age from that of the ministry of the New Covenant Age, through the testimony of his two witnesses, that is his Church. After 3.5 symbolic days, which points to times, times and half a time (42 months, 1260 days) his Church completes her testimony within the unmeasured Gentile outer court.

So where does the 70th week begin?

70th week encompasses 69 weeks to 70 weeks, where the expiry point is when 70 weeks are completed. The 70th week begins at the completion of the 69th week, where the last seven day week begins when Jesus was 30 years old and commences his ministry to the Jews first, who are Daniel's people.

So where in Revelation is the church "removed?" After the 5th seal - the martyrs of the church age, and before the 6th seal that starts God's wrath.

The 5th seal is for Daniel's people who were waiting in their lot to be raised when Michael who is the symbol of salvation under Christ makes a stand on the Cross at Calvary and raises those departed Old Covenant saints crying under the Altar (Revelation 6:9). This Completes the first half of Daniel's 70th week, then the remaining 3.5 days is the ministry of the two witnesses where Christ confirms the Covenant with many Gentile peoples of all nations.

After the Church finishes her testimony then she is martyred by the Beast rising from the Pitt and this signals the end of the 70th week at the sixth seal.

We the church are GONE when the 6th seal hits

The Church is killed before the sixth seal and is raised at the sixth seal.

The days of GT are NOT for the church! They are for ISRAEL. Did you not read how Daniel wrote that the 70 weeks of years is for HIS PEOPLE?

Revelation 7 has the 1st group as Old Covenant Israel and the multitude from every Gentile nation as the 2nd group that goes through the Great Tribulation. The Church from the 1st martyre Saint Stephen has been going through the Great Tribulation as the two witnesses of Revelation who are raised after 3.5 days (remaining half of Daniel's 70th week from 69.5 to 70 week marker).

70 by 7 is determined upon your people. It does not say 70 completed weeks. It just places this statement at the completion of the 69 week marker.

The days of GT are most certainly a part of the 70th week, coming as Jesus said after the abomination.

The GT is during 69:5 to 70 week marker and at the completion of the 70 weeks comes the AoD.

Who said the 1290 and 1335 are symbolic

Who said they weren't?

They are pointing to two events that will take place AFTER the week has ended.

The AoD emerging out of the Pitt to kill the two witnesses, the Church and then the Coming of Christ at the 1335 day symbolic marker.

The last 1260 days will end at the 7th vial. But some event will come 30 days later. Perhaps it will be when Jesus captures the Beast and False prophet and throws them into the lake of fire. Perhaps it will Jesus COMING

This 30 day symbolic marker is the getting rid of the Church and the Daily sacrifice and in its place the establishing of the AoD at 1290.

Then another 45 days later another event. Will it be the official start of the Millennial reign? I don't know.

The coming of Christ has no more reaping as the books are opened and everyone is finally judged and hell and death itself cannot continue after this point as the final enemy death is destroy as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:26.

 

[ToServe]

have no idea where you get this idea. You think no one can be saved after the 7th trumpet?
How about the sheep at the sheep and goat judgment?

After the 7th Trumpet there is no more harvesting and no more reaping, the end.

The separation of the sheep and goats happens before the sixth seal during the Great Tribulation coinciding with the beast rising and the Church being bled out.

But the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of will not start until the last half of the future 70th week of Daniel.

The last half is from when the New Covenant Age commenced which is the last half of Daniel's 70th week from the 69.5 to 70 weeks marker.

We are NOT in the 70th week. It will not start until the 7th seal is opened and the 7th seal will not be opened until the 6th seal and the 6th seal will not take place until the church is raptured. We are STILL HERE! Therefore NONE of these things have happened.

We have yet to complete the 70 weeks, but we are in it as far as approaching its completion. If a person is 20 years and 10 months, then they are in their 21st year, but have yet to complete it. Once they do complete 20 years and 12 months and a day, then they would have entered their 22nd year. Same how we say we are in the 21st century when the year is 2018. In 1990 for example we were in the 20th century.

Since the first 69 weeks and the time to the Mesisah was SO PRECISE, we must believe that the 70th week will be just as precise - and John PROVES this by giving us the last half of the week in days, months and years.

So precise that there would not be a need to require a gap theory. 69 weeks completed was an accurate count to get to the Messiah and the 3.5 year ministry of Christ until the Cross was also accurate to the year. Then after the Cross, the numbers became spiritual and related to how ever long it takes for the two witnesses (The Church) to make disciples of all the world. Therefore when the Church is martyred by the Beast of the Bottomless Pitt and raised after 3.5 days, this 3.5 days is the remaining half of Daniel's week measured spiritually until the fullness of Gentiles is fully accounted for in the Book of Life. Then when Jesus sounds the 7th Trumpet and declares time no longer, the Cross would have fulfilled its purpose and the Messiah has now achieved his goal and fully discharged his obligations to God the Father, by reigning through his Church in making disciples of the gentile nations and now becomes the subject of the Father at his coming.

 

[ToServe]

Everything that happens in the 70th week is "old Covenant" because it is Daniel's 70th week for HIS people. The church has been removed. The 144,000 are sealed just before the trumpet judgments for their protection and are next seen IN HEAVEN, chapter 14, which is a midpoint of the week chapter. So we are introduced to them just before the 70th week begins and then see them in heaven at the midpoint. Therefore I disagree with you.

The chronology has the 144,000 as the first to be redeemed from earth among men and offered as first fruits of the harvest to God and the Lamb.

Offered as the first cab off the rank and not the second.

Then the sequence goes to the paragraph that follows -

Then I saw another angel flying in midair and had the eternal Gospel to preach to those who live in earth of every Gentile nation.

So the Church can't be the 144,000 because they hadn't received the Gospel and yet they were sealed before the Gospel goes out to the Gentile nations abroad.

The second group will be the raptured church - which will be raptured just before the 6th seal - and then seen in heaven in the next chapter, shortly after the rapture. In other words, the church will be in heaven BEFORE God begins the 70th week.

Second group is the Church and the 1st group is the 144,000 are are Old Covenant departed saints redeemed from th earth, meaning they are no longer present on earth.

Again I must disagree: Christ was the VERY FIRST to receive a resurrection body. But the next group will the THE church at the pretrib rapture. The 144,000 will be after the church. It seems you are thinking history when God is thinking prophecy of future events!

That is not what Paul says below -

But each in turn, Christ, the first fruits (144,000), then those who belong to Jesus Christ is the Lamb.

The 144,000 have the Father's name because they are departed and redeemed from the earth Old Covenant saints, Daniel's people who were promised to be raised (Daniel 12, Matthew 27:51-53) when Messiah comes and makes a stand on the Cross for them.

Note carefully, the church is raptured, and then, after that, the 144,000 is sealed. So I ask you, WHY were they not raptured? Do you have a different opinion? John does not tell us so you will

Revelation 7 and 14 places the sequence and urgency in sealing the 144,000 first.

I don't have a opinion, I just read the fun facts of scripture without reversing the sequence to my hearts content.

The 144,000 do not go through the Great Tribulation Right! They are raptured BEFORE the days of GT start. They are seen in heaven in chapter 14 and chapter 14 is a midpoint chapter and it is where God warns people NOT to take the mark. Therefore the m

Your are reversing the sequence explicitly given in scripture and you know it.

You are TOTALLY mistaken on those under the altar at the 5th seal. These are CHURCH AGE martyrs. God tells them they will have to wait for judgment until the very last church age martyr is killed - meaning - they must wait for the rapture that will END the church age. Notice, "the FULL number" God knows how many church martyrs there will be. And the very next event John tells us is the 6th seal and the start of God's wrath - so the rapture MUST come at the 5th seal or just before the 6th seal. These church age martyrs will be raptured before the 6th seal and taken to heaven - while at the same time or shortly after, the 144,000 are being seals for their protection.

The Gospel goes to to the Gentile multitude only after the 144,000 are sealed and redeemed from the earth and offered as the first fruits of the harvest. First means first and not second ok, fair enough!

By the way, there is NOT ONE HINT that any of the 144,000 are martyrs. What? Do you imagine God seal of protection was useless? No, they are raptured ALIVE Jesus as those alive in in Christ will be. Please, my friend, pay closer attention to John's chronology!

In Revelation 14:2-3 the 144,000 after being sealed with the Lamb's Father's name sing a song in Heaven that no man on earth can sing. The offering of the first fruits according to Hebrews is not without blood, for it requires the death of a Testator. These were witnesses for the Father only, which places them and their departure just before the Cross.

My friend, the problem is not what I presented but your preconceived ideas that are in error. It is an absolute fact that Paul's rapture takes place a little while (perhaps a few days) before the 144,000 are sealed. Which really begs the question: WHY were the 144,000 not raptured? The ONLY answer I can come up with is that they were not "IN CHRIST" at the moment of the rapture. Again I have to guess for John does not tell us: HOW did these 144,000 who were NOT "in Christ" a few days before become worthy to be sealed? My only guess (john does not tell us) is that they realized AFTER the rapture that JESUS really WAS their messiah.

The 144,000 are the first sheaf to be offered to God and it is that simple.

 

[BABerean2]

We have yet to complete the 70 weeks, but we are in it as far as approaching its completion.

I agree with just about everything you have said in the last few posts.
However, you may want to consider another possibility on the 70th week of Daniel.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for a period of about 7 years, before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.


Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

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[iamlamad]

1. The chronology has the 144,000 as the first to be redeemed from earth among men and offered as first fruits of the harvest to God and the Lamb.

2. Offered as the first cab off the rank and not the second.

3. Then the sequence goes to the paragraph that follows -

It seems you are STILL stuck in history when God is trying to teach use the future. it seems you have no regard at all for Chronology. John started in his time, first century, and walked us right through the church age, then through the 70th week, then into the 1000 year reign - all in the exact order these things will take place when they take place.

Now point by point:
1. You have missed one important factor: these are Jews and Hebrews - with no relation to the Gentile church of today. Remember, they are 12,000 from each tribe. They missed the rapture which took place before they were sealed. They are the firstfruits of the descendants of JACOB.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Jesus is the first ever to receive a resurrection body. Next will be the CHURCH. Remember that blindness has come upon the descendants of Jacob until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in? The Gentile church is not called firstfruits - even though the church will be raptured BEFORE the 144,000 are caught up. This is proven by many scriptures. God's wrath begins at the 6th seal, so the rapture must be before that. The 70th week will not begin until the 7th seal, and the midpoint of the week not until chapter 11. The 144,000 are caught up somewhere around the midpoint. John did not see that so did not write it - but he saw them in heaven after the midpoint.

You are basing your theory on ONE word: "firstfruits" with no regard to any kind of chronology or timing. I am basing my theory on all the end times scriptures: it is just a fact - truth - that the church will be raptured out before the 70th week starts. This can be proven by comparing 1 Thes. 5 with Revelation. And we can prove that the 144,000 are seen in heaven after the midpoint of the week. Therefore I have taken the sequence straight from the bible. The problem is, you don't understand John's chronology, or simply can't believe it due to preconceptions.

2. I don't understand your statement.

3. "the sequence goes to the paragraph that follows"

Then I saw another angel flying in midair and had the eternal Gospel to preach to those who live in earth of every Gentile nation.

So the Church can't be the 144,000 because they hadn't received the Gospel and yet they were sealed before the Gospel goes out to the Gentile nations abroad.

Amazing. Simply amazing! First, lets get a correct verse:

I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Do you have any idea what the Holy Spirit is saying here? Obviously not! Did you not notice that this gospel is NOT Paul's gospel - that there is NOTHING about the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ in this gospel?

Now let's back up a hundred paces so we can see the forest and not just a tree. First, WHEN is this? It is AFTER the entire church age and AFTER the church has been raptured to heaven. Back up and Read 1 thes. 5, then the 5th and 6th seal and then chapter 7. Notice that the church is seen in heaven - having already been raptured. Then, after that, the 70th week has begun - week for the JEWS and HEBREWS, not designed specifically for Gentiles. Daniel said it is for HIS PEOPLE. How did people come to God before Christ came? By faith in obeying the law to the best of their abilities - right? And offering the right sacrifices for their sins, according to the law.

Here, after the church has been taken to heaven and the church age - the age of Grace where we are saved through faith in the death and resurrection of our Lord - here all God is asking is that people FEAR Him, give glory to Him, and worship Him as their Creator.

The truth then, is that the church has ALREADY received the gospel - it began when Peter stood up and preached on the day of Pentecost. That was around 32 AD. Here, in the time of chapter 14, is AT THE VERY LEAST, 3 1/2 years future to US today. I ask: do you have any concept of time and timing in the scriptures - or do you just ignore that aspect?

Finally, the church CAN'T be the 144,000 for the church is GENTILE while the 144,000 comes from the Tribes of Israel. This is already too long, so I will cover your other points in another post.

 

[iamlamad]

4. Second group is the Church and the 1st group is the 144,000 are are Old Covenant departed saints redeemed from th earth, meaning they are no longer present on earth.

5. That is not what Paul says below -

But each in turn, Christ, the first fruits (144,000), then those who belong to Jesus Christ is the Lamb.

6. The 144,000 have the Father's name because they are departed and redeemed from the earth Old Covenant saints, Daniel's people who were promised to be raised (Daniel 12, Matthew 27:51-53) when Messiah comes and makes a stand on the Cross for them.

7. Revelation 7 and 14 places the sequence and urgency in sealing the 144,000 first.

8. I don't have a opinion, I just read the fun facts of scripture without reversing the sequence to my hearts content.

9. Your are reversing the sequence explicitly given in scripture and you know it.

10: The Gospel goes to to the Gentile multitude only after the 144,000 are sealed and redeemed from the earth and offered as the first fruits of the harvest. First means first and not second ok, fair enough!

11. In Revelation 14:2-3 the 144,000 after being sealed with the Lamb's Father's name sing a song in Heaven that no man on earth can sing. The offering of the first fruits according to Hebrews is not without blood, for it requires the death of a Testator. These were witnesses for the Father only, which places them and their departure just before the Cross.

The 144,000 are the first sheaf to be offered to God and it is that simple.

4. I guess we both agree that Christ was the very first to receive a resurrection body. Now you said that the 144,000 is the next group, and the church follows them as the 3rd (Jesus being 1st.)

My friend, it is YOU who has reversed the order - because you are paying no attention at all to chronology or timing - and basing your theory on ONE WORD. It is like you are staring at one big tree, so do not see you are in the middle of a forest!

Put VERY simply: the church is seen in heaven in chapter 7 as the group too large to number - at about the same time the 144,000 are getting sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgments. The 144,000 then will STAY ON EARTH for the next 3.5 years while the trumpet judgments take place - while the CHURCH will be enjoying their time in heaven.

My friend, you MUST pay attention to chronology!

5. "But each in turn, Christ, the first fruits (144,000), then those who belong to Jesus Christ is the Lamb."

Sorry, but you have left the ball park here! Yes, Christ was the firstfruits of the resurrection - being the VERY FIRST HUMAN BEING to receive a resurrection body. But you have erroneously added the 144,000 as if Christ was them and they were Christ! Perhaps you did that because they too were called "firstfruits." You amaze me!

Here is the truth: Jesus was the VERY FIRST to receive a resurrection body, so HE was called the firstfruits of the resurrection ("them that slept" or who died and then raised from the dead with a resurrection body). Lazarus was raised, but NOT with a resurrection body.

Next, the church will be raptured - but not called "firstfruits."

Then, the 144,000 will be raptured as the firstfruits of the HEBREWS. They are raised up in the middle of the 70th week - a week Daniel said was for HIS PEOPLE.

You see, the truth is, there ARE two separate people of God: there is the church, made up mostly of Gentiles, and then there are the Jews and Hebrews. God has made promises to each of these groups of people. In fact, in the end times there is yet a third group: "the nations," which does not fit either of the other two groups - because they are heathens.

6. The 144,000 have their Fathers name on their forehead, but the CHURCH has the seal of the Holy Spirit INSIDE, in their spirit: TWO distinct groups of people. The church is raptured before the 70th week, and the 144,000 are caught up at the middle of the week.

7. The urgency was to get the 144, 000 seals before the 7th seal starts the 70th week and trumpet judgments.

8. It has been YOU that has reversed God's order given in scripture. I am sure not on purpose, but just due to a lack of understanding and ignoring John's chronology - as if the Holy Spirit did not pay any attention to order when John saw the visions.

9: On the contrary, I know I have stuck with the scriptural order. It is you who have ignored John's chronology.

10: this is the gospel during the 70th week and has NOTHING to do with the Gospel by which the Gentile church has been saved. We, the Gentile church, will be judged on Paul's gospel: the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord (1 Cor. 15). Again, since you ignore time and timing, you don't understand, by this time, the midpoint of the week, the church age is FINISHED: the church seen safely in heaven away from God's wrath. You have ignored timing and ignored which gospel. Because the Jews did not receive Jesus as their Messiah (as a nation) God turned to the Gentiles. When the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in, God will then rapture the church and then focus on the Jews again. The gospel here, at the midpoint of the week is very simple: FEAR God and worship Him.

Your "first" is a very confused first. The truth is, by the time the 144,000 are sealed, the church age is over and the church is in heaven!

11. These were witnesses for the Father only, which places them and their departure just before the Cross.

This is just more confusion. At this time the church age has FINISHED. Time has reverted back to Old Covenant time. The 70th week of DANIEL must be finished - with the 70th or final week. What we are really talking about is that bad word, DISPENSATIONS. The church age was a dispensation or period of time when the Gentiles were allowed free access to God, by believing in the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord. At the rapture, the church age ENDS, and the Day of the Lord begins - a NEW dispensation with different rules.

What you are missing: AFTER the church age, it is OLD COVENANT again: finishing up the 70th week determined for JACOB.

If I were you, I would throw all your theories into the waste basket and start over - this time paying close attention to TIME, TIMING and Chronology.

Always remember:
AXIOM on Revelation:
ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

 

[BABerean2]

with no relation to the Gentile church of today.

Based on the scripture below, the Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile church".

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

On the Day of Pentecost about 3,000 Israelites became a part of the Church.
The Gentiles were grafted in several years later.

The modern Church continues to be made up of all races of people.

I have had Christians in my home for Bible study, who were from Jewish backgrounds.

You are trying to make John Nelson Darby's Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

.

 

[Oldmantook]

Did you never study the Greek word behind "salvation?" It is the Greek word, "Soteria."

Strong's tells us: salvation (40x), the (one) be saved (1x), deliver (with G1325) (1x), health (1x), saving (1x), that (one) be saved (with G1519) (1x).

When the dead in Christ rise, that will cause a world wide earthquake - which will be Paul's "sudden destruction." ALL who are raptured will MISS this earthquake - simply because they are raised up. But all those left behind will be IN that earthquake. Indeed, then, those that are raptured are most certainly delivered or saved from the earthquake: Hence Paul's use of the word, "soteria," or being saved.

Believe as you wish although soteria and harpazo are two completely different words. You commit the error of equivocation.

 

[iamlamad]

Believe as you wish although soteria and harpazo are two completely different words. You commit the error of equivocation.

Not at all: when the church is harpozo'd, they are saved from the sudden destruction.

 

[Oldmantook]

Not at all: when the church is harpozo'd, they are saved from the sudden destruction.

You continue to conflate the meaning of two different words. Bad exegesis in my opinion but you can believe as you wish.

 

[iamlamad]

You continue to conflate the meaning of two different words. Bad exegesis in my opinion but you can believe as you wish.

My friend, it is CONTEXT! What is the context? It is the rapture. Follow Paul:

Jesus descends to the air and to the coulds:
Suddenly, with no warning, at a time people are saying "peace and safety," a loud trumpet blast, and a loud shout, and the dead in Christ around the world fly up out of their graves.
Next, Paul tells us, two groups of people get two different results:
1. Those living in Christ get caught up.
2. Those NOT in Christ are NOT caught up, but get caught in a violent earthquake - Paul's sudden destruction - an earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising. It will be a world wide shaking so there is no escape for all left behind.

Then Paul shows us, this sudden destruction earthquake is the beginning of God's wrath - and God will NOT set any appointments for us with His wrath. Rather, we are caught up a moment before His wrath hits in this "sudden destruction" earthquake. In other words, we get "salvation" or get saved from this sudden destruction earthquake. And then the clincher - so we KNOW Paul is talking about the rapture: we get to "live together with Him." Or, "So shall we ever be with the Lord."

Always remember, CONTEXT is king. Anyone can make verses say almost anything if they are willing to ignore the context.

 

[Oldmantook]

Context is king

My friend, it is CONTEXT! What is the context? It is the rapture. Follow Paul:

Jesus descends to the air and to the coulds:
Suddenly, with no warning, at a time people are saying "peace and safety," a loud trumpet blast, and a loud shout, and the dead in Christ around the world fly up out of their graves.
Next, Paul tells us, two groups of people get two different results:
1. Those living in Christ get caught up.
2. Those NOT in Christ are NOT caught up, but get caught in a violent earthquake - Paul's sudden destruction - an earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising. It will be a world wide shaking so there is no escape for all left behind.

Then Paul shows us, this sudden destruction earthquake is the beginning of God's wrath - and God will NOT set any appointments for us with His wrath. Rather, we are caught up a moment before His wrath hits in this "sudden destruction" earthquake. In other words, we get "salvation" or get saved from this sudden destruction earthquake. And then the clincher - so we KNOW Paul is talking about the rapture: we get to "live together with Him." Or, "So shall we ever be with the Lord."

Always remember, CONTEXT is king. Anyone can make verses say almost anything if they are willing to ignore the context.

Context is king except when you purposely ignore the meaning of the words. Harpazo is not soteria. Nuff said. Case closed.