“About The Great Tribulation”

[Dave L]

Do you also view that event in Revelation?

It depends on the date of authorship. I go by a late date so I think 70 AD was past when John wrote the book.

 

[Dave L]

You need to watch out what you accuse me of doing.
You also need to see that John started a new vision being shown to him at Rev. 4:1. He had to even get in the Spirit. It was - after -the other vision ended.
Revelation 4:1
Revelation 1:1

It does not say what you are saying. The book is full of many visions that would shortly come to pass. If you look for the symbol to appear, you'll miss the meaning. If you look for what the symbol represents, much of Revelation began coming to pass when written.

 

[jgr]

The timing issue is, as I have stated twice:

• You are starting the tribulation took place at the destruction of Jerusalem
• You say that Christ said the destruction was the tribulation
• You said, As Jesus said, they already happened. "or ever shall be" means never to be that bad again, which you attribute to the destruction of Jerusalem.
• To the point above, the siege of Jerusalem was bad, but so were others in antiquity. According to Josephus 1.1 million non combatants, presumably Jews, died.
• In the holocaust 6 million Jews died.
• The timing issue is that Christ was speaking of a future event that would have no equal in its evil, past or present. Clearly worse events, in the world and to the Jews, happened well after 70 A.D.

One of the numerous confirmations of Christ's prediction that the coming tribulation within that generation would be unprecedented before, and unsurpassed since, was the Jews' role in their own destruction. As Josephus records:

"I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly; that neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries; nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was from the beginning of the world."

Contemporary Jewish historians concur:
"The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure, and the Temple's destruction, was due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Yoma 9b). While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."

 

[iamlamad]

Using this verse to support a supposed rapture is faulty. The reason is, God can preserve his people in the midst of his wrath without removing them from the earth. God preserved Noah and his family on the earth in the midst of the great flood. God preserved the Israelites from his plagues while they were still living in Egypt. There is no reason to presume that God cannot do the same thing for his saints in the midst of the great tribulation.

Nothing faulty about it! This verse in question is in the classic rapture passage of 1 thes. 4 & 5. What I wonder is why you don't believe it?

Paul is clear, WE get salvation by way of rapture, while those left behind get sudden destruction - which comes with God's wrath.

 

[Oldmantook]

Nothing faulty about it! This verse in question is in the classic rapture passage of 1 thes. 4 & 5. What I wonder is why you don't believe it?

Paul is clear, WE get salvation by way of rapture, while those left behind get sudden destruction - which comes with God's wrath.

We get salvation at the moment of regeneration by the Holy Spirit - not by way of the rapture.

 

[Ken Rank]

“For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” Matthew 24:21.

As we begin to discuss about the great tribulation, it is important we first understand the meaning of the keyword ‘tribulation’ as used in the opening text…

The word translated as ‘tribulation’ in the opening text, is from the Greek word ‘thlipsis’, meaning—pressure. It means pressure—either literally or figuratively. Other synonyms of the word tribulation as translated in the New Testament are: affliction, anguish, burden, persecution, and trouble.

All through the ages, since the fall of Adam and Eve, mankind has faced several kinds of tribulation and disaster. Some God-made—by his sovereign ideal; some man-made; and some others, devils’-made…

Even Israel—the chosen nation of God—also went through tribulations from God as a result of their evil deeds. Then the Church of Christ, since her emergence after the death, resurrection and ascension of Christ, has also suffered tribulations, especially in the form of persecution from non-believers.

But concerning the great tribulation, the Lord tells us in his own words that the great tribulation is a special kind of tribulation. That has never been experienced since the beginning of the world till the time he was speaking…

And that the great tribulation will not have its kind after it. Many Christian theologians are divided on their understanding and explanation of the great tribulation as mentioned by the Lord. Especially concerning its features and timing. So in this article, we want to see exactly what the scriptures say concerning the great tribulation.

The Features of the Great Tribulation

Having already known the meaning of the word ‘tribulation’, the great tribulation can therefore be explained as a period of great and unusual affliction. On the entire world and its inhabitants. And the major features of the great tribulation from scriptures are as follows:

1) A Period of Great Deception: “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect”—Matthew 24:24. A major feature of the great tribulation is an unusual emergence of deception.

Which will be masterminded by the anti-Christ and his false prophet (see 2 Thessallonians2:9-11; Revelation 13:13-15) the bible says the deceptions at the great tribulation will be so strong that if it were possible, the very elect of God shall also be deceived.


2) A Period of Great Persecution of the Saints: “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues and nations”—Revelation 13:7 (see also Daniel 8:24).

Another prominent feature of the great tribulation is an unusual persecution of the Church. Yes, the church and saints of God of all ages have been persecuted and even martyred in large scale. But the persecution of the saints at the great tribulation will be far greater.

The world will be subjected to many kinds of idolatry and rituals of which anyone that fails to follow suit, will be killed or ostracised (see Revelation 13:12, 14-15).


3) A Period of God’s Wrath: The final stage of the great tribulation is a period of unusual disaster from God (Revelation 16:1-14). And this last phase of the great tribulation will happen after the rapture of the Church at the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The bible says the true believers will not partake of God’s wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

To better understand this fact, the words of our Lord Jesus give us an eye-opener. Here are his exact words: “But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered the ark; and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”—Matthew 24:37-39.

So amidst the great tribulation, Christ will come and rapture his church and after that, the remaining inhabitants of the earth will face the wrath of God as it was in the days of Noah.

Admonishment to the Church Concerning the Great Tribulation

With the above three features of the great tribulation, it is very clear that the saints or believers will partake of the great tribulation. Especially the periods of great deception and persecution. But the believers will not partake of the last phase of the great tribulation which is the wrath of God or the judgement of God.

However, concerning the great tribulation, the Lord admonishes the believers thus:

“Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man”—Luke 21:36.


From the above scripture, the Lord admonishes us concerning the great tribulation to be watchful and prayerful always. So we may be accounted worthy of escaping the things that shall come to pass at the great tribulation so that in the end, we will be able to stand before him—the Son of man.

Escape as used in the above scripture, can take either of two forms… Either escaping through death or martyr; or escaping through the rapture at the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Those who do not escape the great tribulation will be taken in the tribulation. Either they are taken by the great deception or are taken by the great persecution through personal subjection…

And that is why the Lord admonishes us to be watchful and prayerful always. Because it’s only through these two spiritual tools we would be able to escape the great deception and persecution of the end-time at the great tribulation…

And finally be able to stand before our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ in paradise forever.

Remain Blessed!

Emeke Odili

I actually don't believe for a second (any longer) that the church is raptured out before the tribulation. I think the we confuse wrath and tribulation and because of this, miss the point. Tribulation is pressure... just like pressure on a rock that becomes a diamond. Pressure will be put on the people of God and all their little pet doctrines, that currently divide God's people into 20,000+ denominations and sects, just won't be that important. And the result? We will come together as one because of our common foe, and to do the work of God, without allowing any differences of understanding to get in our way.

When the Israelites left Egypt, do we REALLY think they were all in one accord? No... they murmured all the way into the promised land! They faced tribulation, they came together for the good of the whole DESPITE not everyone being on the same page in all manner of understanding.

 

[iamlamad]

I actually don't believe for a second (any longer) that the church is raptured out before the tribulation. I think the we confuse wrath and tribulation and because of this, miss the point. Tribulation is pressure... just like pressure on a rock that becomes a diamond. Pressure will be put on the people of God and all their little pet doctrines, that currently divide God's people into 20,000+ denominations and sects, just won't be that important. And the result? We will come together as one because of our common foe, and to do the work of God, without allowing any differences of understanding to get in our way.

When the Israelites left Egypt, do we REALLY think they were all in one accord? No... they murmured all the way into the promised land! They faced tribulation, they came together for the good of the whole DESPITE not everyone being on the same page in all manner of understanding.

What kind of imagination is this? John TELLS US how this pressure will come about: the Beast and False prophet will erect an image, (think Nebuchadnezzar) and force all to worship it - or lose their head!

They will create a mark, and force all to receive it - or lose their head. No one can buy or sell without the mark - so great pressure will be put on people to take the mark. Thirst can be a very powerful motivator. The two witnesses will cause no rain, and God will turn all fresh water into blood - so the ONLY water to drink will be found in stores.

It is going to be a very difficult time to live. In case you missed it, when Satan's wrath is at its peak, causing millions to lose their head- God pours out the vials of His wrath to shorten those days of GT. In other words, it is impossible to separate by time, the days of God's wrath and Satan's wrath - because they are simultaneous.

Since this is true - and it IS true - the rapture is going to come BEFORE His wrath begins - which is at the 6th seal. His wrath then continues on through the entire week. In other words, the rapture WILL BE pretrib.

 

[iamlamad]

We get salvation at the moment of regeneration by the Holy Spirit - not by way of the rapture.

Did you never study the Greek word behind "salvation?" It is the Greek word, "Soteria."

Strong's tells us: salvation (40x), the (one) be saved (1x), deliver (with G1325) (1x), health (1x), saving (1x), that (one) be saved (with G1519) (1x).

When the dead in Christ rise, that will cause a world wide earthquake - which will be Paul's "sudden destruction." ALL who are raptured will MISS this earthquake - simply because they are raised up. But all those left behind will be IN that earthquake. Indeed, then, those that are raptured are most certainly delivered or saved from the earthquake: Hence Paul's use of the word, "soteria," or being saved.

 

[iamlamad]

It depends on the date of authorship. I go by a late date so I think 70 AD was past when John wrote the book.

Finally! Something we can agree on!

 

[Ken Rank]

What kind of imagination is this? John TELLS US how this pressure will come about: the Beast and False prophet will erect an image, (think Nebuchadnezzar) and force all to worship it - or lose their head!

They will create a mark, and force all to receive it - or lose their head. No one can buy or sell without the mark - so great pressure will be put on people to take the mark. Thirst can be a very powerful motivator. The two witnesses will cause no rain, and God will turn all fresh water into blood - so the ONLY water to drink will be found in stores.

It is going to be a very difficult time to live. In case you missed it, when Satan's wrath is at its peak, causing millions to lose their head- God pours out the vials of His wrath to shorten those days of GT. In other words, it is impossible to separate by time, the days of God's wrath and Satan's wrath - because they are simultaneous.

Since this is true - and it IS true - the rapture is going to come BEFORE His wrath begins - which is at the 6th seal. His wrath then continues on through the entire week. In other words, the rapture WILL BE pretrib.

Satan's wrath? A phrase, respectfully, I am fairly certain isn't in Scripture. Yes, we will have a common foe and yes, some will die. But the group as a whole will not, and they will draw near and stand as a bride adorned for her husband, and, once we have been protected from GOD'S wrath, messiah comes and puts an end to it all.

 

[BABerean2]

What kind of imagination is this? John TELLS US how this pressure will come about: the Beast and False prophet will erect an image, (think Nebuchadnezzar) and force all to worship it - or lose their head!

They will create a mark, and force all to receive it - or lose their head. No one can buy or sell without the mark - so great pressure will be put on people to take the mark. Thirst can be a very powerful motivator. The two witnesses will cause no rain, and God will turn all fresh water into blood - so the ONLY water to drink will be found in stores.

It is going to be a very difficult time to live. In case you missed it, when Satan's wrath is at its peak, causing millions to lose their head- God pours out the vials of His wrath to shorten those days of GT. In other words, it is impossible to separate by time, the days of God's wrath and Satan's wrath - because they are simultaneous.

Since this is true - and it IS true - the rapture is going to come BEFORE His wrath begins - which is at the 6th seal. His wrath then continues on through the entire week. In other words, the rapture WILL BE pretrib.

Former pretribber Steven Straub shows the problems with the pretrib viewpoint in the video below.

.

 

[ToServe]

The Great Tribulation

This is explicitly described in Revelation chapter 7, but in order to put it in its proper context the chapter must be correctly interpreted.

In summary two groups owing to two entirely different ages are being categorically spoken about. They are -

The 1st are those of former sea of the harvest who encompass the entire Old Covenant Age.
The 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel who are redeemed/sealed first as the firstfruits of the harvest (1 Corinthians 15:23).

The 2nd are those latter sea of the harvest who encompass the entire New Covenant Age.
A great multitude that no one could count, from every Gentile nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The 144,000 firstfruits are the former sea before the Cross from Abraham to Daniel.
The Great multitude from all the Gentile nations that encompass the entire New Covenant Age and are numbered as the sand of the seashore are the recipients of the Gospel to whom the order of the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:23 calls them those who belong to Christ.

So, Revelation 14 declares the 144,000 Old Covenant Daniel's people being raised first as the firstfruits of the harvest, those departed who were crying under the Altar of God in Revelation 6:9 and who sing the song of Moses that no other man can sing. Then immediately following their resurrection in Matthew 27:51-53 (Daniel 12, Ezekiel 37:11-14) as the 144,000 firstfruits, the three angel messages goes out to the Gentile nations abroad where the first angel now says now you can preach to the Gentiles after the 144,000 Old Covenant Jews in the likes of Daniel who was told to wait in his Lot until the coming of Messiah would rise to receive their eternal life inheritance.

The Great Tribulation must therefore encompass the entire New Covenant Age from the 1st martyre Saint Stephan to the end of days remnant (the last good tasting wine of the wedding supper of the Lamb). Hence, the 70th week ends when the Trumpet of God declares time no longer for the Great Harvest, bring to an end the Great Tribulation and initiating the resurrection of those New Covenant Bride that belongs to Jesus at his Brilliant Coming when he sounds the Trumpet of God.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Great Tribulation

The Great Tribulation must therefore encompass the entire New Covenant Age from the 1st martyre Saint Stephan to the end of days remnant (the last good tasting wine of the wedding supper of the Lamb). Hence, the 70th week ends when the Trumpet of God declares time no longer for the Great Harvest, bring to an end the Great Tribulation and initiating the resurrection of those New Covenant Bride that belongs to Jesus at his Brilliant Coming when he sounds the Trumpet of God.

That event is when my bro Saul/Paul is introduced

Stoning of Stephen against the Law
Stoning of Stephen against the Law?

Acts 7:
56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens having been opened<διηνοιγμένους<455> and the Son of the Man standing out of rights of the God!"
58 They dragged him out of the city and began to stone him.
Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul.

Book - Sealed with 7 Seals

Luke 21:27
And then they shall be seeing the Son of the Man coming in a cloud with power and much glory.

Revelation 14:15
and another Messenger did come forth out of the Sanctuary
crying-out in a great Voice to Him who is sitting upon the cloud,
'Send forth thy sickle and reap............'

Revelation 19:11
And I saw the heaven being opened<ἠνεῳγμένον <455> and behold! A white horse!
and the One sitting on it being called Faithful and True.
And in justice He is judging and battling.

 

[iamlamad]

The Great Tribulation

This is explicitly described in Revelation chapter 7, but in order to put it in its proper context the chapter must be correctly interpreted.

In summary two groups owing to two entirely different ages are being categorically spoken about. They are -

The 1st are those of former sea of the harvest who encompass the entire Old Covenant Age.
The 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel who are redeemed/sealed first as the firstfruits of the harvest (1 Corinthians 15:23).

The 2nd are those latter sea of the harvest who encompass the entire New Covenant Age.
A great multitude that no one could count, from every Gentile nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The 144,000 firstfruits are the former sea before the Cross from Abraham to Daniel.
The Great multitude from all the Gentile nations that encompass the entire New Covenant Age and are numbered as the sand of the seashore are the recipients of the Gospel to whom the order of the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:23 calls them those who belong to Christ.

So, Revelation 14 declares the 144,000 Old Covenant Daniel's people being raised first as the firstfruits of the harvest, those departed who were crying under the Altar of God in Revelation 6:9 and who sing the song of Moses that no other man can sing. Then immediately following their resurrection in Matthew 27:51-53 (Daniel 12, Ezekiel 37:11-14) as the 144,000 firstfruits, the three angel messages goes out to the Gentile nations abroad where the first angel now says now you can preach to the Gentiles after the 144,000 Old Covenant Jews in the likes of Daniel who was told to wait in his Lot until the coming of Messiah would rise to receive their eternal life inheritance.

The Great Tribulation must therefore encompass the entire New Covenant Age from the 1st martyre Saint Stephan to the end of days remnant (the last good tasting wine of the wedding supper of the Lamb). Hence, the 70th week ends when the Trumpet of God declares time no longer for the Great Harvest, bring to an end the Great Tribulation and initiating the resurrection of those New Covenant Bride that belongs to Jesus at his Brilliant Coming when he sounds the Trumpet of God.

Sorry, but the days of GT will not even start until chapter 11 when the abomination will take place: Jesus TOLD us this. Therefore the huge crowd too large to number the raptured saints seen in heaven. I will add, JUST raptured - for the rapture will come just before the 6th seal is opened.

Don't be thrown off by "great tribulation." In this case God us using these two words to describe the end of the church age: people we be being martyred around the world just because they love Jesus. It is that way in half the world today and it is getting worse.

You are right, God considers the church age as the age of great tribulation. But He also considers the tribulation after the abomination to be greater than any other time ever.

Hence, the 70th week ends when the Trumpet of God declares time no longer

This is a poor translation. God is not ending time here, for there remains the 1000 year reign. No, the best translations tell us there will be no more DELAY in time.

The truth is, God OUTLINED the 70th week with 7's: the 7th seal opens the week, and the 7th vial ends the week, and the midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet.

It is my guess the 144,000 MISS the rapture because they are not yet born again. But either they SEE the rapture or understand it is Jesus taking His church to heaven, so they suddenly understand Jesus IS their Messiah, and they turn to Him and get born again. They are then seals for their protection during the trumpets and are then raptured to heaven as firstfruits.

 

[iamlamad]

Satan's wrath? A phrase, respectfully, I am fairly certain isn't in Scripture. Yes, we will have a common foe and yes, some will die. But the group as a whole will not, and they will draw near and stand as a bride adorned for her husband, and, once we have been protected from GOD'S wrath, messiah comes and puts an end to it all.

Did you not read?

Rev. 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Sorry, but we are protected from God's wrath by way of RAPTURE Did you not read?

1 Thes. 5:
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

What does Paul mean, "obtain salvation?" Salvation from WHAT? IN CONTEXT it is the salvation from the sudden destruction. Those in darkness GET the sudden destruction because they will not be caught up - but those living in Christ WILL get caught up, and so get to "live together with Him." (So shall we ever be with the Lord.)

Paul is telling us that the rapture will come just a moment before the Wrath of God begins.

Paul's meaning then is this:
1 Thes. 5:
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation [by way of the rapture] by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Notice the last phrase: HOW do we get to live together with Him - HOW do we get to "so shall we ever be with the Lord?" In context the only possible answer is, the RAPTURE.

 

[Ken Rank]

Notice the last phrase: HOW do we get to live together with Him - HOW do we get to "so shall we ever be with the Lord?" In context the only possible answer is, the RAPTURE.

It sounded more like you were laying Satan's wrath as being equal with God. My mistake.

As per your point... the Lord is coming here, to dwell as King. So that's where we will be.

When the one was taken and the other left... where did the taken go to? Messiah pointed to the scavenger birds eating all the dead bodies and said, "over there!" When Noah was given protection on the ark he was still on earth. And when the doors opened, everyone else was taken, and Noah was left behind. Same with Lot... Lot was given a place of safety on earth and when the smoke cleared, Lot was left and everyone else was gone, taken. Yeshua likens his return to those two events. I prefer to be left behind!

 

[ToServe]

That event is when my bro Saul/Paul is introduced

Stoning of Stephen against the Law
Stoning of Stephen against the Law?

Acts 7:

I would say it started with the stoning of Stephen and it continues to this very day, until those who hold the testimony of Jesus are moved out of the way as the Living Stones of the Temple of God who offer the only valid sacrifices (The Daily Sacriice) within the New Covenant (Romans 12:1). The Living stones will be replaced by the abomination that makes desolate owing to a mind governed by the flesh (Romans 8) that the many sons of perdition within the Church will initiate in the falling away from the Apostolic faith once given to the saints. These man/men of sin (fade christs/prophets ministers) will serve a lie and will deal in a treasonous way with Jesus and his Church when the times time and half a times comes where the Gentiles come to be fully accounted for.

Zechariah 14:1-4 comes into play in the separation of the Tares from the Wheat on the Great Day of Battle of God Amighty when many gentile nations wil infiltrate his Church and rape the women/denominations and these sons of perdition like the judas iscariots of the world will be exiled by Jesus from his Holy City Jerusalem and the remnant who continue in truth will not be cutoff from the City of God.

70AD or even the 1st Century did not result in Christ making war with his own Church, but in the end of days when the Gentiles come to full, he will separate them by the breath of his mouth and by the brilliance of his coming. What was destroyed in 70AD was the wicked and their unholy city.

Since we are here and the testimony of the Church (symbol of the two witnesses) has not yet ended then the Gentiles are still coming to Christ and we are still in Great tribulation as the unmeasured (yet to be accounted for) gentile court is still trampling these two witnesses under foot by their opposition to the Gospel message that they carry.

 

[iamlamad]

It sounded more like you were laying Satan's wrath as being equal with God. My mistake.

As per your point... the Lord is coming here, to dwell as King. So that's where we will be.

When the one was taken and the other left... where did the taken go to? Messiah pointed to the scavenger birds eating all the dead bodies and said, "over there!" When Noah was given protection on the ark he was still on earth. And when the doors opened, everyone else was taken, and Noah was left behind. Same with Lot... Lot was given a place of safety on earth and when the smoke cleared, Lot was left and everyone else was gone, taken. Yeshua likens his return to those two events. I prefer to be left behind!

True, we will be here during the 1000 year reign of Christ - but I thought we were discussing where we would be during the 7 years of tribulation.

Jesus point in bringing up Noah and Lot was the suddenness of their destruction - and only that. They woke up one morning expecting that day to be just like every day before, but in both cases, Noah and Lot, before the day was done, they were all dead.

If you wish to be left behind when Jesus takes His bride to heaven, you will be OUT of His perfect will. Are you sure that is what you want? He has already said the Beast will be given authority over you. No other verse will override this verse for this point in time. Oh, people left behind can still make it to heaven, but headless! And before that, they will suffer greatly.

 

[Ken Rank]

True, we will be here during the 1000 year reign of Christ - but I thought we were discussing where we would be during the 7 years of tribulation.

Jesus point in bringing up Noah and Lot was the suddenness of their destruction - and only that. They woke up one morning expecting that day to be just like every day before, but in both cases, Noah and Lot, before the day was done, they were all dead.

If you wish to be left behind when Jesus takes His bride to heaven, you will be OUT of His perfect will. Are you sure that is what you want? He has already said the Beast will be given authority over you. No other verse will override this verse for this point in time. Oh, people left behind can still make it to heaven, but headless! And before that, they will suffer greatly.

The meek inherit the earth, brother, not heaven. And your interpretation of Noah and Lot and destruction is just that, an interpretation. You might be right, but it is one of many possibilities including what I shared.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[ToServe]

Sorry, but the days of GT will not even start until chapter 11 when the abomination will take place: Jesus TOLD us this. Therefore the huge crowd too large to number the raptured saints seen in heaven. I will add, JUST raptured - for the rapture will come just before the 6th seal is opened.

Revelation 7 and 14 does explicitly teach that the 144,000 firstfruits of the harvest are sealed before the Great multitude from every Gentile nation. The 144,000 are sealed before the Gospel goes out to the Gentile nations within the 1st Century context.

Don't be thrown off by "great tribulation." In this case God us using these two words to describe the end of the church age: people we be being martyred around the world just because they love Jesus. It is that way in half the world today and it is getting worse.

It was also the case throughout the centuries from the inception of Christianity amongst the Gentile nations.

You are right, God considers the church age as the age of great tribulation. But He also considers the tribulation after the abomination to be greater than any other time ever.

When the AoD is introduced the Church is removed out of the way, yet the Great Tribulation is for the Church and it ends at the introduction of the AoD. The body of Christ remnant who remain from 1290 to 1335 day symbolic marker are said to be blessed. Yet the majority of the Church is removed.

Hence, the 70th week ends when the Trumpet of God declares time no longer

Yes.

This is a poor translation. God is not ending time here, for there remains the 1000 year reign. No, the best translations tell us there will be no more DELAY in time.

It speaks of the reaping from the harvest of God. The Trumpet declares that there is no more names to be added to the Book of Life and no reason for conversions after this point at Christ's return.

The truth is, God OUTLINED the 70th week with 7's: the 7th seal opens the week, and the 7th vial ends the week, and the midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet.

The fifth seal seals the 144,000 firstfruits of the harvest and then the Great Tribulation begins within the 1st century context when Saint Stephan was martyred and is to this very day. We are in the 70th week. 70th week ends at the Abomination of Desolation.

It is my guess the 144,000 MISS the rapture because they are not yet born again. But either they SEE the rapture or understand it is Jesus taking His church to heaven, so they suddenly understand Jesus IS their Messiah, and they turn to Him and get born again. They are then seals for their protection during the trumpets and are then raptured to heaven as firstfruits.

Read Revelation chapters 7 and 14 the 144,000 are the firstfruits of the harvest who sing the song of Moses. They are the Old Covenant former sea Daniel's people who were the first to be redeemed amongst men as declared to Daniel in Daniel 12. The 144,000 are before the Cross and before the Gospel goes out to the Gentile nations abroad.
The second group that comes after them are the great multitude from every Gentile nation who sing the song of the Lamb and make their robes white by the blood of the Lamb of God and who hold palm branches in their hands.

The 144,000 are the firstfruits of the harvest and second to Christ the forerunner in the resurrection of the dead, that Paul mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:23 and John in Revelation 14 (before 3 angel messages). They are sealed and redeemed before the Great Gentile multitude as the firstfruits of the harvest before the Gospel even goes out to the Gentile nations.

How can you state the following -

so they suddenly understand Jesus IS their Messiah, and they turn to Him and get born again. They are then seals for their protection during the trumpets and are then raptured to heaven as firstfruits.

"the 7th seal opens the week," (The Great Tribulation Week you refer to)

9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
(Revelation 6:9-11)

Those under the Altar of God are the 144,000 who have already departed and await the Lord to raise them up as the firstfruits of the harvest to be reaped/redeemed from amongst men. These have died for the Word of God, before the Lamb came to redeem them. Whilst the second group makes their robes white by the blood of the Lamb.

3“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. (Revelation 7:3-4)

The 144,000 do not go through the Great Tribulation and do not face the judgement vials poured out upon the inhabitants of the world for they are the Old Covenant redeemed in Revelation 6:9 and who were told to wait until their New Covenant brothers and sisters were to be born and redeemed as they were. The New Covenant Gentile numbers come to be fully accounted for in the Book of Life.

The narrative you present of the 144,000 being the firstfruits yet at the same time being the last to be born again begs belief.

Do you sincerely believe what you have stated is transparent and without contradictions?

After all when you start of by saying "It is my guess" then how much weight would you place on that guess after what is being brought to your attention?