“...be in subjection to the governing authorities” Romans 13

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,499
Milwaukee
✟410,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Really this is a separate interesting debate and you are using it as a red herring to avoid this subject while trying to use the OT to support your opinions.
Hebrews 8 is not the Old Testament. Weirdest complaint evv-er.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,499
Milwaukee
✟410,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Really this is a separate interesting debate and you are using it as a red herring to avoid this subject while trying to use the OT to support your opinions.


It's the response to your post. Hello?

Tolkien R.R.J said:
The Old testament Law was Abolished with the new

Hebrews 8
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. - Hebrews 8

8For finding fault with them, He says,
“BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;

9NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.

10“FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

11“AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, ‘KNOW THE LORD,’
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.

12“FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.”

13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,499
Milwaukee
✟410,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It is time for You to act, O Lord,
For they have regarded Your law as void.
-Psalm 119.126

There is no good context for Psalms.
A good response is better local law of course.
Treat others as you would wish they treated you. - Local law
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,499
Milwaukee
✟410,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God

You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.
-1 Corinthians 7.23

Context: Obey the law, submit to legal standing, government is obeyed above scripture.

20 Each one should remain in the situation he was in when he was called. 21 Were you a slave when you were called? Do not let it concern you, but if you can gain your freedom, take the opportunity. 22 For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord’s freedman. Conversely, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ’s slave.

23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24 Brothers, each one should remain in the situation he was in when God called him.
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: Loyce KG
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,499
Milwaukee
✟410,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
To Him who divided the Red Sea in two, For His mercy endures forever; 14 And made Israel pass through the midst of it, For His mercy endures forever; 15 But overthrew Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea,For His mercy endures forever; 16 To Him who led His people through the wilderness,For His mercy endures forever;17 To Him who struck down great kings, For His mercy endures forever; 18 And slew famous kings,For His mercy endures forever—
-Psalm 136 13-18

The psalms are a general commentary on history. Still, none promote civil disobedience inside the kingdom.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,499
Milwaukee
✟410,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
and this is our issue when we get to the bottom of our disagreement. you chose to pick a few verses out of context you like and want the bible to say, I would rather the bible be understood as intended.
I don't pick and choose. I use a search tool that has no bias. I do skip the passages that are off the topic, but there is only one passage opposed to authority, and it turns out to be church authority. I feared that one opposed my conclusion until I read the context.
So here is my tool:
What Does the Bible Say About Government?

If you use it, you'll come to the same conclusion as I did.
Obey your local government first, follow God's Laws in your heart second.

1 Cor 7
20 Each one should remain in the situation he was in when he was called. 21 Were you a slave when you were called? Do not let it concern you, but if you can gain your freedom, take the opportunity. 22 For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord’s freedman. Conversely, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ’s slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24 Brothers, each one should remain in the situation he was in when God called him.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,499
Milwaukee
✟410,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
They set up kings without my consent;
they choose princes without my approval.
-Hosea 8.4


It is an abomination to kings to do evil,
for the throne is established by righteousness.
-Proverbs 16.12


Like a roaring lion or a charging bear
is a wicked ruler over a poor people.
-Proverbs 28.15

Nothing advocating civil disobedience. Fail
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,499
Milwaukee
✟410,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The LORD is a man of war
-Exodus 15.3


Cursed is he who does the work of the Lord deceitfully,
And cursed is he who keeps back his sword from blood.
-Jeremiah 48.10


Stephen and Paul affirmed and commended Israel for fighting in those OT wars in acts 7.46 13 19 and Heb 11 33-34. God raised up Moses, Gideon, Ehud, Jephthah, Sampson, Esther, and Deborah to trow off tyrannical governments and restore Israel to the king of kings, and they were all praised in Hebrews 11.

23 But Gideon said to them, “I will not rule over you, nor shall my son rule over you; the Lord shall rule over you.”
-Judges 8.23

Nothing on civil disobedience here.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,499
Milwaukee
✟410,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
so things such as abortion, homosexuality, prostitution, adultery, and fornication are no longer sins because the government does not declare them unlawful?

It is God's will that we follow local law first. God's law in our hearts second.
Just as Jesus explained that local law was the Father will. (Authority over Jesus!)

John 19:11
Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Loyce KG
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,499
Milwaukee
✟410,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Yes, we are to obey the laws of the land because these government authorities are placed into power by God (Romans 13), but if those laws conflict with God's commands, then we are to obey God rather than men.

"Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men." (Acts of the Apostles 5:29).​

Currently, they are trying to pass laws so that nobody in the state of Texas can practice biblical teachings outside an actual church building.

Texas Bills Threaten to Strip 'Texans’ Right to Practice Biblical Teachings'

If that were to happen, a Christian should obviously resist that kind of law. But the Christian should be as wise as serpents and innocent as doves by doing so, though. The Christian should not make it so obvious. They should be more covert about it. In other words, if this were to happen, the church would simply go underground. In China, the church is forced to go underground (it has to remain hidden) otherwise their own government will destroy them.

Side Note:

But I think it needs to be stressed that we should obey those laws of the land that do not conflict with God's Word. So things like traffic laws, etc. that is loving towards our neighbor is something that is good and should be obeyed. For if we resist the laws (like these) then we are in resistance against God and not man. For God did establish into power governing authorities. We are to obey those who are above us (as long as it does not conflict with our orders in following Jesus).

That is the wrong conclusion. Local law comes first. Under local law you must follow Gods law as written in your heart. "We ought to obey God rather than men" is Peter telling the council of bishops and the High Priest in particular to "Take a Hike".

He is saying that the Religious council has zero authority over the actions of man.
They rank below local law and below God's law. They have zero authority.
And I agree.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

timewerx

the village i--o--t--
Aug 31, 2012
15,204
5,877
✟296,877.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Here’s the Scripture on the matter:

Romans 13: NASB
1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.5Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. (NASB)

Some would argue we are to obey government and its laws even if they are in opposition to God’s laws and His Righteousness. The following verses in Romans 13 refutes this specious claim:

8Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

11Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. 12The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy.14But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts. (NASB)

So we see Paul teach to obey government and her laws yet in the following verses see God’s laws mentioned and how we are to keep them, above all love our neighbors as ourselves.

We already know the men and woman of faith throughout Scriptures resisted government and local authorities when wicked laws were enacted. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego disobeyed a clear idolatrous directive:

Daniel 3: NASB
8For this reason at that time certain Chaldeans came forward and brought charges against the Jews. 9They responded and said to Nebuchadnezzar the king: “O king, live forever! 10“You, O king, have made a decree that every man who hears the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, and bagpipe and all kinds of music, is to fall down and worship the golden image. 11“But whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire. 12“There are certain Jews whom you have appointed over the administration of the province of Babylon, namely Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego. These men, O king, have disregarded you; they do not serve your gods or worship the golden image which you have set up.”

13Then Nebuchadnezzar in rage and anger gave orders to bring Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego; then these men were brought before the king.14Nebuchadnezzar responded and said to them, “Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the golden image that I have set up? 15“Now if you are ready, at the moment you hear the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery and bagpipe and all kinds of music, to fall down and worship the image that I have made, very well. But if you do not worship, you will immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire; and what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?”

16Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter. 17“If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. 18“But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.” (NASB)

And Peter and John after being ordered by the religious authorities to not preach Christ tell them that is it right to heed them or God:

Acts 4: NASB
13Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus. 14And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they had nothing to say in reply. 15But when they had ordered them to leave the Council, they began to confer with one another, 16saying, “What shall we do with these men? For the fact that a noteworthy miracle has taken place through them is apparent to all who live in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it.17“But so that it will not spread any further among the people, let us warn them to speak no longer to any man in this name.” 18And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge; 20for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.” (NASB)

There are more examples I’m sure other posters will bring up. However, it is abundantly clear that when God’s Law is in tension with the wicked laws of mankind we are not to obey wickedness.

I agree with your post. Sadly, a lot of Christians don't know how to read Romans 13 and other writings of Paul and often easily misinterpret them.

Romans 13 is purely culture, period, and region-specific.

Romans 13 is Not applicable in every situation.

Proof: Why are many Christians get persecuted, punished, jailed, executed for doing what is good and what is right in many countries? Many characters in the Bible who openly opposed/disobeyed laws that undermine the commandments of the Lord and became persecuted as a result.
 
Upvote 0

Eloy Craft

Myth only points, Truth happened!
Supporter
Jan 9, 2018
3,132
871
Chandler
✟386,808.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Obey your local government first, follow God's Laws in your heart second.
What if the law of the local government states that all citizens must take the mark of the beast?
 
Upvote 0

timewerx

the village i--o--t--
Aug 31, 2012
15,204
5,877
✟296,877.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
What if the law of the local government states that all citizens must take the mark of the beast?

Right!

Romans 13 is culture, period, and region specific as many of Paul's teachings are.

"If you do what is good you have nothing to fear from the authorities...."

We all know that NOT true in every situation. In some countries, a Christian can be sent to jail for doing what is good.

Not everything of Paul's teaching apply to every audience. Even Paul himself gave a "soft disclaimer" of his teaching style being culture/region specific. Even his letters are intended for specific recipients.... It's not a "one size fits all" message.

.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Eloy Craft
Upvote 0

Ignatius the Kiwi

Dissident
Mar 2, 2013
7,029
3,750
✟287,917.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Context: Obey the law, submit to legal standing, government is obeyed above scripture.

20 Each one should remain in the situation he was in when he was called. 21 Were you a slave when you were called? Do not let it concern you, but if you can gain your freedom, take the opportunity. 22 For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord’s freedman. Conversely, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ’s slave.

23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24 Brothers, each one should remain in the situation he was in when God called him.

Burn only a little incense to Caesar as god. No need to die for something so little. Also, eat this meat sacrificed to Idols.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That is the wrong conclusion. Local law comes first. Under local law you must follow Gods law as written in your heart. "We ought to obey God rather than men" is Peter telling the council of bishops and the High Priest in particular to "Take a Hike".

He is saying that the Religious council has zero authority over the actions of man.
They rank below local law and below God's law. They have zero authority.
And I agree.

So let me get this straight, if local law or government law told you to ignore God's laws you would favor local law and the government?

Would you take the mark of the beast because it was a government law?

As for the phrase in Acts: Well, the Jews used to be a nation. We are also told to obey our masters or bosses in Scripture (Again if it does not conflict with Scripture). Also, the Jewish high priests during that time were considered leaders or rulers of the Jewish people to the apostles. Even Paul recognizes that he should not speak against his own Jewish leaders (Acts of the Apostles 23:5). But they disobeyed them because their laws and ways conflicting with God's laws.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Persecuted Christians in "restricted countries" are "disobedient / rebellious".. according to governing authorities.

Well, this would be the exception to the rule. If a law or governing authority goes against God's laws like persecuting Christians, the laws on persecuting Christians do not apply. But if it was a general law of the land (like the traffic laws) and it does not conflict with God's Word, they are to still obey these other general laws, i.e. like the traffic laws (even if their government is wrongfully breaking God's laws by persecuting them).
 
  • Agree
Reactions: timewerx
Upvote 0

timewerx

the village i--o--t--
Aug 31, 2012
15,204
5,877
✟296,877.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
It can also be that the context of "Authority" only applies to those who will enact them with sound leadership, integrity, Godly wisdom, and compassion.

Leaders who cannot abide by those principles, are evil, are not recognized as authority....Because it would be absurd to follow the law of the land or a leader if that law or leader causes you to violate one or more of the Lord's commandments.

Plenty examples of such disobedience by Israelites in the Bible if their leaders are evil. Such authority is not recognized.
 
Upvote 0

timewerx

the village i--o--t--
Aug 31, 2012
15,204
5,877
✟296,877.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
It is God's will that we follow local law first. God's law in our hearts second.
Just as Jesus explained that local law was the Father will. (Authority over Jesus!)

How would Muslims who became Christians know this if it forbidden to own a Bible and also forbidden to hold non-Islamic religious gatherings/fellowship in their country?

The fact, they became Christians in the first place, a Christian talked to them about Christ. Did that Christian disobeyed the Lord or did evil?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tolkien R.R.J
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But I think it needs to be stressed that we should obey those laws of the land that do not conflict with God's Word. So things like traffic laws, etc. that is loving towards our neighbor is something that is good and should be obeyed. For if we resist the laws (like these) then we are in resistance against God and not man. For God did establish into power governing authorities. We are to obey those who are above us (as long as it does not conflict with our orders in following Jesus).
I agree without question.
 
Upvote 0