‘Christ did not die for the sins of the people’: Head of German Catholic Bishops

[redleghunter]

Any way you like.

Well was kind of looking for an explanation. I have heard some very convincing and Biblically sound explanations, yet incomplete.

Was wondering what your view was. Thanks though.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

This is not new thinking. There are plenty of Christians who do not emphasise substitutionary atonement as the primary reason for Christ's death.

There is an alternative interpretation which is every bit as Christian; that of reconciliation.

No, that would be "another" gospel.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

It's not that simple.

500 years ago they excommunicated another German cleric for far less...

 

[amariselle]

500 years ago they excommunicated another German cleric for far less...

They would have done more than that if they had been able.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

Surely he won't keep his job, right?

I was gonna say surely he wont be going to heaven. He has denied Christ as his saviour.

 

[mindlight]

Full title:
‘Christ did not die for the sins of the people’: Head of German Catholic Bishops Conference on TV

FREIBURG, Germany April 21, 2009 (LifeSiteNews) - According to the chairman of the Catholic bishops’ conference of Germany, the death of Jesus Christ was not a redemptive act of God to liberate human beings from the bondage of sin and open the gates of heaven. The Archbishop of Freiburg, Robert Zollitsch, known for his liberal views, publicly denied the fundamental Christian dogma of the sacrificial nature of Christ’s death in a recent interview with a German television station.

Zollitsch said that Christ "did not die for the sins of the people as if God had provided a sacrificial offering, like a scapegoat."

Instead, Jesus had offered only "solidarity" with the poor and suffering. Zollitsch said "that is this great perspective, this tremendous solidarity."

The interviewer asked, "You would now no longer describe it in such a way that God gave his own son, because we humans were so sinful? You would no longer describe it like this?"

Monsignor Zollitsch responded, "No."

More at link:

‘Christ did not die for the sins of the people’: Head of German Catholic Bishops Conference on TV

The article provides the relevant Catechism reference (613) the liberal bishop is contradicting.

"However, Article 613 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the definitive work issued by the Church explaining the dogmas and doctrines of the Catholic religion, describes the death of Christ as "both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through ‘the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world’, the sacrifice of the New Covenant, which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the ‘blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins’."

The Catechism continues, "This sacrifice of Christ is unique; it completes and surpasses all other sacrifices. First, it is a gift from God the Father himself, for the Father handed his Son over to sinners in order to reconcile us with himself. At the same time it is the offering of the Son of God made man, who in freedom and love offered his life to his Father through the Holy Spirit in reparation for our disobedience."

In the Western World academic theology is pretty much corrupted like this in most state sponsored institutions and Bishop Zollitsch is just mouthing off rationalisations that would be acceptable to his academic peers there. There is neither church nor scriptural support for his views. He should not be a bishop and would not be outside the fallen circumstances of the Western world. But if it is any consolation the Evangelisch (protestant) church is even worse in Germany. We had a drunk driving head woman bishop who divorced her husband for no good reason after a 26 year marriage with 4 kids by him there.

 

[sdowney717]

1 Peter 2:24
who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

Christ died for the sins of His people, most certainly all of His people and all of their sins. this is the Gospel by which you stand.

1 Corinthians 15:1
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

2 Corinthians 5:15
and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

 

[redleghunter]

Pfft!


John.6

1. [51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Eph 1

[7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Heb 10

[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

God Bless,
SBC

Thanks and let us not forget this one:

Eph. 5:1-2, "Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; 2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma."

 

[devin553344]

Full title:
‘Christ did not die for the sins of the people’: Head of German Catholic Bishops Conference on TV

FREIBURG, Germany April 21, 2009 (LifeSiteNews) - According to the chairman of the Catholic bishops’ conference of Germany, the death of Jesus Christ was not a redemptive act of God to liberate human beings from the bondage of sin and open the gates of heaven. The Archbishop of Freiburg, Robert Zollitsch, known for his liberal views, publicly denied the fundamental Christian dogma of the sacrificial nature of Christ’s death in a recent interview with a German television station.

Zollitsch said that Christ "did not die for the sins of the people as if God had provided a sacrificial offering, like a scapegoat."

Instead, Jesus had offered only "solidarity" with the poor and suffering. Zollitsch said "that is this great perspective, this tremendous solidarity."

The interviewer asked, "You would now no longer describe it in such a way that God gave his own son, because we humans were so sinful? You would no longer describe it like this?"

Monsignor Zollitsch responded, "No."

More at link:

‘Christ did not die for the sins of the people’: Head of German Catholic Bishops Conference on TV

I believe the German is near to a correct doctrine but also incorrect. Jesus the Christ was healing and raising from the dead before he was crucified, in fact he also forgave sins before his death.

Luke: {5:24} But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.

You can say he died for all time's sins such that he died later after the debt accrued and that's how he performed such miracles.

But the power of Jesus the Christ flows from his Father God, and He himself also gave up the ghost and resurrected himself.

Indicating that he wasn't sacrificed. More correct translation is that he offered himself to death and raised himself back up, thus performing his own sacrifice. In other words the Son of God sacrificed himself.

There is conflicting testament of Christs death. For instance in Matthew it says of Jesus own words:

{17:22} And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men: {17:23} And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

And then in John Jesus says:

{10:17} Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.{10:18} No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

And then you can't be sure who killed Jesus, but it's clear that Jesus the Christ didn't require help from man to sacrifice himself.

With these facts in mind one can only conclude similar as the German concludes. With the exception that his death and resurrection was necessary.

 

[redleghunter]

Indicating that he wasn't sacrificed. More correct translation is that he offered himself to death and raised himself back up, thus performing his own sacrifice. In other words the Son of God sacrificed himself.

Was it Jesus' will or the Father's will that He suffered and died on the cross?

I think it was Jesus submitting to the Father's will. Which leads us to Isaiah 53 fulfilled in total.

 

[devin553344]

Was it Jesus' will or the Father's will that He suffered and died on the cross?

I think it was Jesus submitting to the Father's will. Which leads us to Isaiah 53 fulfilled in total.

I see your point, also there is that Spirit of God in Revelation: {11:11} And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

As though the spirit of God took upon himself their death and exchanged it with life. Thus suffering their deaths.

 

[sdowney717]

I believe the German is near to a correct doctrine but also incorrect. Jesus the Christ was healing and raising from the dead before he was crucified, in fact he also forgave sins before his death.

Luke: {5:24} But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.

You can say he died for all time's sins such that he died later after the debt accrued and that's how he performed such miracles.

But the power of Jesus the Christ flows from his Father God, and He himself also gave up the ghost and resurrected himself.

Indicating that he wasn't sacrificed. More correct translation is that he offered himself to death and raised himself back up, thus performing his own sacrifice. In other words the Son of God sacrificed himself.

There is conflicting testament of Christs death. For instance in Matthew it says of Jesus own words:

{17:22} And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men: {17:23} And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

And then in John Jesus says:

{10:17} Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.{10:18} No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

And then you can't be sure who killed Jesus, but it's clear that Jesus the Christ didn't require help from man to sacrifice himself.

With these facts in mind one can only conclude similar as the German concludes. With the exception that his death and resurrection was necessary.

God raised Christ from the dead, not Christ raising Himself, even though they are one.

'No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.'
This verse is about Christ going to die on the cross, Christ had the power to choose not to die on the cross, this is not about the resurrection.

You said
'But the power of Jesus the Christ flows from his Father God, and He himself also gave up the ghost and resurrected himself.

Indicating that he wasn't sacrificed. More correct translation is that he offered himself to death and raised himself back up, thus performing his own sacrifice. In other words the Son of God sacrificed himself.'

He certainly was a sacrifice for sin.
There are many verses that tell us God the Father raised up Christ the Son from the dead.

Acts 2:24
whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
Acts 2:32
This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
Acts 3:15
and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.
Acts 3:26
To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
Acts 4:10
let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.
Acts 4:24
So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them,
Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree.
Acts 10:40
Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly,
Acts 13:23
From this man’s seed, according to the promise, Godraised up for Israel a Savior—Jesus—
Acts 13:30
But God raised Him from the dead.
Acts 13:33
God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.’
Acts 13:37
but He whom God raised up saw no corruption.
Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
1 Corinthians 6:14
And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.
1 Corinthians 15:15
Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.
Galatians 1:1
[ Greeting ] Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),
Colossians 2:12
buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
1 Peter 1:21
who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Christ did not raise Himself from the dead. This is not a subtle point of doctrine to say Christ raised Himself up. The Father and the Son being of one are also separate and each has a will.

 

[devin553344]

Was it Jesus' will or the Father's will that He suffered and died on the cross?

I think it was Jesus submitting to the Father's will. Which leads us to Isaiah 53 fulfilled in total.

Sorry I should have added that it was neither the Father's will nor the Sons will that man crucified Jesus the Christ. And that is correct doctrine and I will prove it below. So the German did get that part correct. We must acknowledge that God does only good and Satan does only evil. Then we find in Luke:

{23:33} And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they
crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. {23:34} Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

And if they were doing something good by crucifying him then they would not need to be forgiven of the Father of Jesus the Christ. For in crucifying him they sinned greatly.

One could then discern that Jesus had power to provide the sacrifice already before they so rudely and harshly crucified him.

 

[devin553344]

God raised Christ from the dead, not Christ raising Himself, even though they are one.

'No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.'
This verse is about Christ going to die on the cross, Christ had the power to choose not to die on the cross, this is not about the resurrection.

You said
'But the power of Jesus the Christ flows from his Father God, and He himself also gave up the ghost and resurrected himself.

Indicating that he wasn't sacrificed. More correct translation is that he offered himself to death and raised himself back up, thus performing his own sacrifice. In other words the Son of God sacrificed himself.'

He certainly was a sacrifice for sin.
There are many verses that tell us God the Father raised up Christ the Son from the dead.

Acts 2:24
whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
Acts 2:32
This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
Acts 3:15
and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.
Acts 3:26
To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
Acts 4:10
let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.
Acts 4:24
So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them,
Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree.
Acts 10:40
Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly,
Acts 13:23
From this man’s seed, according to the promise, Godraised up for Israel a Savior—Jesus—
Acts 13:30
But God raised Him from the dead.
Acts 13:33
God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.’
Acts 13:37
but He whom God raised up saw no corruption.
Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
1 Corinthians 6:14
And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.
1 Corinthians 15:15
Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.
Galatians 1:1
[ Greeting ] Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),
Colossians 2:12
buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
1 Peter 1:21
who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Christ did not raise Himself from the dead. This is not a subtle point of doctrine to say Christ raised Himself up. The Father and the Son being of one are also separate and each has a will.

You have some strange doctrine. Jesus the Christ is God, you can't separate Jesus from God. Although Jesus speaks much about his Father who also is God.

[edit] Both you and I are correct as we stated the bible verses, Jesus himself saying he raised himself from the death then you saying God raised him. Then Jesus is translated as being God himself. Do you understand that doctrine?

 

[sdowney717]

You have some strange doctrine. Jesus the Christ is God, you can't separate Jesus from God. Although Jesus speaks much about his Father who also is God.

Wow, well just read all those bible verses about God raising Christ and you come back with that?

You said Christ was not a sacrifice to God, here you go.

1 Corinthians 5:7
Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

Ephesians 5:2
And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.

Hebrews 9:26
He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Hebrews 10:12
But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,

Christ was sacrificed for us, a sacrifice to God, offered the sacrifice of Himself, and was the sacrifice for sins.

You should consider the strange doctrine is not from me but from you?

 

[sdowney717]

Sorry I should have added that it was neither the Father's will nor the Sons will that man crucified Jesus the Christ. And that is correct doctrine and I will prove it below. So the German did get that part correct. We must acknowledge that God does only good and Satan does only evil. Then we find in Luke:

{23:33} And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they
crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. {23:34} Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

And if they were doing something good by crucifying him then they would not need to be forgiven of the Father of Jesus the Christ. For in crucifying him they sinned greatly.

One could then discern that Jesus had power to provide the sacrifice already before they so rudely and harshly crucified him.

You said
'Sorry I should have added that it was neither the Father's will nor the Sons will that man crucified Jesus the Christ'

It was certainly their will Christ be crucified by man.

Acts 2:22-24New King James Version (NKJV)
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—

23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

 

[Rion]

Kind of ironic that it's the German Archbishop saying this, what with this being the 500 anniversary of the Reformation.

 

[sdowney717]

You have some strange doctrine. Jesus the Christ is God, you can't separate Jesus from God. Although Jesus speaks much about his Father who also is God.

[edit] Both you and I are correct as we stated the bible verses, Jesus himself saying he raised himself from the death then you saying God raised him. Then Jesus is translated as being God himself. Do you understand that doctrine?

Do you believe in the Trinity? 3 separate distinct persons, but of one substance?
Are you a Jesus only believer?, there is no Father separate from the Son?

John 3:35
The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.

John 5:20
For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.

Matthew 11:27
All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the oneto whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

There are many more verse that show them each distinct and with a will.

 

[devin553344]

Wow, well just read all those bible verses about God raising Christ and you come back with that?

You said Christ was not a sacrifice to God, here you go.

1 Corinthians 5:7
Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

Ephesians 5:2
And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.

Hebrews 9:26
He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Hebrews 10:12
But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,

Christ was sacrificed for us, a sacrifice to God, offered the sacrifice of Himself, and was the sacrifice for sins.

You should consider the strange doctrine is not from me but from you?

I didn't say Jesus the Christ didn't sacrifice for His children, us.

 

[devin553344]

You said
'Sorry I should have added that it was neither the Father's will nor the Sons will that man crucified Jesus the Christ'

It was certainly their will Christ be crucified by man.

Acts 2:22-24New King James Version (NKJV)
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—

23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

Yes I see your point. But while you're so consumed with Jesus being sacrificed, perhaps you should take the side of his friends the Apostles who didn't want him dead and even smote off an ear to prove it. Or you could take the side of the sinners that crucified him.

But as for me I'll accept Christ and be his friend in my heart and wish him not to his death. And judge the sin of them that crucified him, that it was in fact sin to them. And I think that's the spirit you should be in. Right? The spirit of them he chose as his friends and Apostles.

[edit] I believe that if you say he had to be crucified by sinners then your siding with sin and sinners. He in fact said himself he had the power to provide the sacrifice. And we should be in the spirit of not wanting him to die, but if he decided to save us, which is his own choice not ours, then worship him the more for his sacrifice. Does that make sense emotionally and morally and spiritually?

In other words, was the cross crucifixion of sin necessary, I would say no it was not, he claimed to have power to provide the sacrifice already. So I don't worship the cross, I despise it morally because it clearly was a sinful act.

I'll add this one last point. The Sacrifice was good, and as Jesus pointed out on the cross, the crucifixion was sin and therefore evil. I think we must learn to separate the sacrifice from the crucifixion. God Bless