‘All men responsible for stopping abuse/harassment’ - good cover for an abuser?

[High Fidelity]

It's as if those women don't realise that women sexually harass men too.

 

[Ana the Ist]

And what we have today is somehow better?

I suppose that depends on your point of view...but I'd say at least nowadays it's possible for victims of sexual abuse to seek justice and get it. That wasn't always the case.

That there have aways been sexual abuse is not in dispute.
How should it be dealt with, limited or stopped?

The justice system.

Saying on one hand, ' Do what you like sexually'
and on the other, ' Don't take advantage of other people'
Is not going to limit sexual abuse.

How would you prevent it?

You're asking me how I would limit sexual abuse? Right after you basically admit that it's been going on for as long as we've been able to have sex?

Well...lemme think real hard....

Nope, I can't do it. I can't limit sexual abuse anymore than I can keep murders from happening or robbery from taking place. I can be responsible for my own behavior...but I can't be responsible for anyone else's.

It may be an uncomfortable reality of life...but it is truth, so I think you're better off not living in denial of it. Sexual abuse will happen...and will probably always happen. Don't do it...try and teach your children not to do it...try and teach them not to put themselves into situations that leave them vulnerable...and try to teach them what to do if they find themselves in those situations.

That's really all you can do. It won't change reality, there will still be sexual abuse, but that's really all you or anyone else can possibly do to minimize it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well . . . if the hand on a woman's thigh is with someone he does not even know personally . . . I would keep my hands to myself.

In the news, we now have someone who is said to have violated some number of women; but he claims something like that he felt he had more going with them than they are saying. But one woman says she was crying about what he was doing, right while he was doing it? I think that would be hard for him to miss, if that is true.

But if a couple were getting hands-on because they have something with each other, that might mean a third possibility . . . tender affection . . . not only control or pleasure. But if I dearly love a lady . . . even so, I am going to be careful about where my hands go, so I don't start what I am not going to finish. And in my case it might not be really affection, but sensual; and so I need to keep myself to what is with affection.

By the way, if one has violated women, but claims he felt he had more going with them than they have indicated, I'd like to know if he knew any of their birthdays.

Yeah, I can hear someone thinking . . . know someone's birthday????? PLEASE



It's good to get to know someone, so you know what is really good for them. And each one is different; so we don't need to have a one-size-fits-all rule, I would say. Don't be so lazy; take some time and make an effort to really get to know someone and discover how to love with each other.

Yeah I'm curious about what "knowing someone's birthday" has to do with anything? Surely you're not claiming that knowing someone's birthday somehow makes someone's actions not sexual abuse?

 

[Strathos]

I agree, we should *all* be. Not just men only, because penis.

The difference is that when men speak up about these things, more people listen. The accusations against Cosby were known for years but didn't become a big deal until a male comedian pointed them out. He was being responsible and using his influence to help correct injustice.

 

[Gadarene]

The difference is that when men speak up about these things, more people listen. The accusations against Cosby were known for years but didn't become a big deal until a male comedian pointed them out. He was being responsible and using his influence to help correct injustice.

And the opposite is true of Weinstein - what of it?

 

[Tolworth John]

suppose that depends on your point of view...but I'd say at least nowadays it's possible for victims of sexual abuse to seek justice and get it. That wasn't always the case.

It isn't always the case now.
The powerfull or influential can pervert the course of justice.

That's really all you can do. It won't change reality, there will still be sexual abuse, but that's really all you or anyone else can possibly do to minimize it.

Would you take that atitude on crime?
Not try to stop crime, or catch criminals or prevent crime.
Isn't rape a crime?

Re read the article I quoted. It is not froma Christian.

Just as you and I control our desires so other people can controll their urges.

Civilisation involves us accepting limit on our freedom to act.

 

[HannahT]

The difference is that when men speak up about these things, more people listen. The accusations against Cosby were known for years but didn't become a big deal until a male comedian pointed them out. He was being responsible and using his influence to help correct injustice.

Humans have a responsibility to stand up for those that are being abused. It doesn't matter whom the victim is, or what gender. It also really depends on the man who is speaking. It's the same the other way around - who the woman is. If someone powerful - or extremely popular - speaks? People listen. Gender may not always play a role.

Weinstein had power too, and so did the President of my younger days. People have to decide WHEN its time to take away their power, and hold them responsible. It was the same with Cosby. The dynamics and the power structure at the time with these people's reigns of terror - everyone knew, but no one did anything - was a time in which people were to scared or didn't think it was a big deal.

Hollywood and Washington are sewers. Most everyone has heard the rumors - everyday folks - and those that worked there knew. Depending on the popular/political environment will tell you how much they are willing to admit too. If they can take down someone with less power while holding on to their own? They will. They will play to the country, and PLAY to the world.

Look at how many of these scumbags chanted 'respect for women', and played along that they ALWAYS did...and are getting outed right now? They got what they wanted at the time - praise for their stand! Yet, their scum.

More people will be outed, because its finally the 'thing to do'. I'm just worried that some of them maybe innocent, because you have those that want revenge. That happens too. They also know in this climate they can get away with that revenge, because if anything is questioned about the victim's story? They will get fried like an egg. Lack of morality isn't a trophy just for men.

So, how do we balance this atmosphere? Isn't that the 10 million dollar question! Watch! No one will go there right now. Our culture may have evolved a bit, but with our hyper vigilance how many people will pay the price? Don't know.

 

[com7fy8]

Yeah I'm curious about what "knowing someone's birthday" has to do with anything? Surely you're not claiming that knowing someone's birthday somehow makes someone's actions not sexual abuse?

You are right . . . of course > knowing a birthday is not a license to assume you can make contact with a person, just because you feel you have something going with a person.

What I am considering is that if a man claims he felt he had something going with a woman, but then she objects to his making contact, to me this means he did not make a real effort to communicate with her and really get to know her. And I consider, only, that if he was really caring for her and really getting to know her, he might find out, in the process, what her birthday is.

And so, I just thought of this . . . that if he really felt he had something going with the women he abused, does he know the birthday of even one of them? And I mean, did he really take an interest in them, enough to find out who they really are and what they really are feeling?

 

[Ana the Ist]

It isn't always the case now.
The powerfull or influential can pervert the course of justice.

I said they can at least seek justice...not that they'll always have it.

Would you take that atitude on crime?
Not try to stop crime, or catch criminals or prevent crime.
Isn't rape a crime?

What attitude do you think I've taken?

 

[Ana the Ist]

You are right . . . of course > knowing a birthday is not a license to assume you can make contact with a person, just because you feel you have something going with a person.

What I am considering is that if a man claims he felt he had something going with a woman, but then she objects to his making contact, to me this means he did not make a real effort to communicate with her and really get to know her. And I consider, only, that if he was really caring for her and really getting to know her, he might find out, in the process, what her birthday is.

And so, I just thought of this . . . that if he really felt he had something going with the women he abused, does he know the birthday of even one of them? And I mean, did he really take an interest in them, enough to find out who they really are and what they really are feeling?

I definitely misunderstood you...thanks for clearing that up.

 

[FireDragon76]

Women do not disproportionately sexually harass and assault men. Arguing for a false equivocation between men and women in terms of responsibility ignores that reality.

What you seem to be arguing for is a society that is indifferent to injustice and privatizes suffering. As a Christian I can only consider that attitude sinful. We have collective responsibilities to each other as human beings. These cannot be nullified simply because they are demanding.

 

[com7fy8]

I definitely misunderstood you...thanks for clearing that up.

You are welcome

Thank you for asking, instead of taking off with what you thought I might be thinking What you thought I might be thinking was . . . unthinkable! But there are men who seem to feel it is fine to just violate women, just because they want to.

But so we can miss out on ever finding out how loving can be. Love does not have us only using anyone.

 

[Tolworth John]

I said they can at least seek justice...not that they'll always have it.

What attitude do you think I've taken?

"That's really all you can do. It won't change reality, there will still be sexual abuse, but that's really all you or anyone else can possibly do to minimize it."

I understood you to be washing your hands of trying to prevent abuse etc.
If I've missunderstood you. I'm sorry.

 

[Gadarene]

Women do not disproportionately sexually harass and assault men. Arguing for a false equivocation between men and women in terms of responsibility ignores that reality.

Did I say women were equally responsible? I don’t believe so, not least because quantifying degrees guilt is a challenge. My point is they are not held to any level of collective responsibility at all - and this is despite regularly being abusers themselves, regularly being the ones who hand younger girls over to scum like Weinstein, and reinforcing attitudes that (supposedly) make it harder for victims to come forward. Is there any collective responsibility handed out from the gender equality brigade? No, none whatsoever. So until that occurs, I urge men to disdain supporting whatever they’re demanding from men and saying they have collective responsibility for.

What you seem to be arguing for is a society that is indifferent to injustice and privatizes suffering. As a Christian I can only consider that attitude sinful. We have collective responsibilities to each other as human beings. These cannot be nullified simply because they are demanding.

You are refusing to apply any collective responsilbity to women whatsoever, so how are you practicing what you’re preaching here?