‘All men responsible for stopping abuse/harassment’ - good cover for an abuser?

Larniavc

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While this will still happen in a culture with strict sexual rules at least the vunerable will know what is or is not right behaviour and have a chance to avoid being taken advantage of.
Dunno about that. When you have stricter societal rules you get the same if not worse behaviour because the women is deemed to be ‘asking for it’ by breaking said rules.

See the Indian public transport daylight gang rapes.

A percentage of the population will always sexually assault other people: the way they can do it varies by culture.

But people will always do it.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Or someone with a guilty conscience?

E.g. Not all men are guilty of violence and sexism – but all men have a responsibility to stop those crimes

As well as thousands of similar, cringeworthy articles in the wake of Weinstein/#metoo about how men have to ‘do better’ because of the actions of a few*.

More and more I keep thinking, with people who are outspoken on equality issues like Louis C.K. and George Takei falling under accusations recently - this line would be great cover for an abuser.

For example:
‘Yes, I have harassed women myself. But really, don’t you see how all men are responsible for this?”

The abuser’s guilt/responsibility is assuaged and minimised by passing it on to the male gender entire, while virtue-signalling to throw people off the abuser’s own trail.

Discuss.

*As a secondary topic, note how it is only men being told to ‘do better’ even though plenty of women have supported and enabled abusers like Weinstein. As always, I strongly encourage men not to pander to demands for contrition and imposition of collective guilt until enough women display their willingness to accept the same treatment. Either you are responsible for what you are personally responsible for, and that’s it - or all groups are liable for collective responsibility/guilt.

I read an article about this written by a feminist...claiming that both individuals and all men are somehow simultaneously responsible. It's a logical impossibility.

If the men and women who do such things are responsible...then they are responsible. If they are not...then they are not. It cannot logically be both.

I have several ideas why someone would claim otherwise...but that's just my personal opinion.
 
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Strathos

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I read an article about this written by a feminist...claiming that both individuals and all men are somehow simultaneously responsible. It's a logical impossibility.

If the men and women who do such things are responsible...then they are responsible. If they are not...then they are not. It cannot logically be both.

I have several ideas why someone would claim otherwise...but that's just my personal opinion.

I see some equivocation here. You can use the word 'responsible' in a negative or positive way.

If you say 'this person is responsible for committing a crime', that's negative. But if you say 'this person is responsible, they always try hard to take care of things', that's positive. We should all be 'responsible' in the second sense.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I see some equivocation here. You can use the word 'responsible' in a negative or positive way.

If you say 'this person is responsible for committing a crime', that's negative. But if you say 'this person is responsible, they always try hard to take care of things', that's positive. We should all be 'responsible' in the second sense.

So when someone claims "all men are responsible for sexual abuse"...which of the two meanings do you think it's referring to? The positive or negative?

I didn't use any equivocation. I used the same meaning of "responsible" throughout my post.
 
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Gadarene

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Men being held accountable - I can see why its caused such a stir with the OP

That is absolutely what I said, the whole way through the acres of posts I've made to back up my arguments. Great reading comprehension.

No I have no problem with people being held accountable, but that's just it. Hold everyone similarly accountable, and do it properly rather than trial by social media. So far we aren't doing either.

Have another go, and pay attention this time.
 
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Gadarene

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I see some equivocation here. You can use the word 'responsible' in a negative or positive way.

If you say 'this person is responsible for committing a crime', that's negative. But if you say 'this person is responsible, they always try hard to take care of things', that's positive. We should all be 'responsible' in the second sense.

I agree, we should *all* be. Not just men only, because penis.
 
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Tolworth John

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Everyone here agrees rape and sexual abuse of any person is wrong.
Yet no one is prepared to deal with what is starring them in the face.
Chastity
"For anyone else who may be confused, chastity is the virtue which moderates our sexual desires. Basically, to be chaste is to practice restraint. A chaste person refrains from more than just sexual assault. He refrains, also, from inappropriate contentography, vulgarity, sex outside marriage, and sex that is not in accordance with natural law. This all sounds downright archaic nowadays, I realize, but our outrage over sexual improprieties doesn’t amount to much if it isn’t rooted in a fundamental belief in the dignity of the human person."
quote from:- Can secular leftist men find any value in women apart from sex?

What will bring this about?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Everyone here agrees rape and sexual abuse of any person is wrong.
Yet no one is prepared to deal with what is starring them in the face.
Chastity
"For anyone else who may be confused, chastity is the virtue which moderates our sexual desires. Basically, to be chaste is to practice restraint. A chaste person refrains from more than just sexual assault. He refrains, also, from inappropriate contentography, vulgarity, sex outside marriage, and sex that is not in accordance with natural law. This all sounds downright archaic nowadays, I realize, but our outrage over sexual improprieties doesn’t amount to much if it isn’t rooted in a fundamental belief in the dignity of the human person."
quote from:- Can secular leftist men find any value in women apart from sex?

What will bring this about?

Unless you're going to offer some reason to believe that sexual abuse didn't exist before inappropriate contentography, marriage, vulgarity and whatever ills you want to blame it on...your entire opinion here is pointless.
 
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Zoii

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That is absolutely what I said, the whole way through the acres of posts I've made to back up my arguments. Great reading comprehension.

No I have no problem with people being held accountable, but that's just it. Hold everyone similarly accountable, and do it properly rather than trial by social media. So far we aren't doing either.

Have another go, and pay attention this time.
Tsk tsk misbehaving? ☺
 
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Tolworth John

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Unless you're going to offer some reason to believe that sexual abuse didn't exist before inappropriate contentography, marriage, vulgarity and whatever ills you want to blame it on...your entire opinion here is pointless.
It is always good to know that all that is going to be talked about is who is at fault and not to discuss soultions to a problem.

Sin has been a problem from the time Adam fell.
 
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Ana the Ist

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It is always good to know that all that is going to be talked about is who is at fault and not to discuss soultions to a problem.

Sin has been a problem from the time Adam fell.

If you can point to any time in the history of christianity, or any other religion, where even the people who believed they were devout faithful followers had stopped engaging in sexual abuse...you might have a point.

As far as I can tell though, your religion has done nothing to improve the situation. If you're genuinely interested in discussing solutions...perhaps it's time to stop beating a 2000 year old dead horse. I'm sure it's tempting to use this situation as an opportunity to preach...but I'm old enough to remember the scandal of sexual abuse that permeated the clergy and faithful of so many churches and the efforts to do nothing except cover it up.
 
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Tolworth John

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If you can point to any time in the history of christianity, or any other religion, where even the people who believed they were devout faithful followers had stopped engaging in sexual abuse...you might have a point.

As far as I can tell though, your religion has done nothing to improve the situation. If you're genuinely interested in discussing solutions...perhaps it's time to stop beating a 2000 year old dead horse. I'm sure it's tempting to use this situation as an opportunity to preach...but I'm old enough to remember the scandal of sexual abuse that permeated the clergy and faithful of so many churches and the efforts to do nothing except cover it up.
And what we have today is somehow better?

That there have aways been sexual abuse is not in dispute.
How should it be dealt with, limited or stopped?

Saying on one hand, ' Do what you like sexually'
and on the other, ' Don't take advantage of other people'
Is not going to limit sexual abuse.

How would you prevent it?
 
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Gadarene

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Tsk tsk misbehaving? ☺

Not at all. Try and stay on topic.

The people you need to watch out for are the creeps trying to pin all the blame on men, if would seem.

Btw, you might want to watch your step when it comes to using the reaction function to make fun of posts. It's against the rules now.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Or someone with a guilty conscience?

E.g. Not all men are guilty of violence and sexism – but all men have a responsibility to stop those crimes

As well as thousands of similar, cringeworthy articles in the wake of Weinstein/#metoo about how men have to ‘do better’ because of the actions of a few*.

More and more I keep thinking, with people who are outspoken on equality issues like Louis C.K. and George Takei falling under accusations recently - this line would be great cover for an abuser.

For example:
‘Yes, I have harassed women myself. But really, don’t you see how all men are responsible for this?”

The abuser’s guilt/responsibility is assuaged and minimised by passing it on to the male gender entire, while virtue-signalling to throw people off the abuser’s own trail.

Discuss.

*As a secondary topic, note how it is only men being told to ‘do better’ even though plenty of women have supported and enabled abusers like Weinstein. As always, I strongly encourage men not to pander to demands for contrition and imposition of collective guilt until enough women display their willingness to accept the same treatment. Either you are responsible for what you are personally responsible for, and that’s it - or all groups are liable for collective responsibility/guilt.

My opinion on this whole thing might not be very popular or "politically correct", but I'm going to share it anyway.

First of all, let's get one thing straight: unsollicited sexual activity, sex without consent, harrasment etc are all utterly disgusting and should be dealt with swiftly and severely.

Secondly...................................... and here's the "controversial" part.

It really is not that much of a secret that certain women (and some men likely as well), especially in showbizz, haven't been afraid of (ab)using their own bodies to get their way into that scene.

I remember reading an article a few years back about Christina Aguilera's "comeback". She wanted to do a new album and had dificulty finding a label that would give her a good deal. The article concerned an interview with a studio manager who said that she basicaly threw herself at him. He refused and she went on to do her album at another studio. He didn't "know" how she nailed that deal (pun intended), but he said he wouldn't be surprised that that manager simply didn't refuse.

Let's not kid ourselves. This happens. Women who get promoted, women who land record deals or movie parts, not through talent or hard work, but by simply sleeping with the one who has the power to sign a contract.

I can't help but wonder, how many of those "me-too" people, fall into that category.

Surely they will regret their choice months, years later. Surely they will feel "abused". Surely they will feel "dirty" and ashamed. It would be very easy for them to jump on that bandwagon and play the victim card as well.


Not saying that his would play a part in the whole Weinstein affair for example... Eventhough I don't wish to speak out about it, since I don't "know", I don't think his victims are lying or something.

Just saying... it goes both ways here. And I know of at least 2 actresses in Belgium of whom it was a "public secret" that they landed carreers in showbizz simply by "auditioning" for parts in a producer's bedroom, on their own initiative... this was a decade ago. And today, they are among those who suddenly "speak out" about sexual abuse etc.

It goes both ways.

Yes, surely there is abuse of power where the producer says "I'll give the part, IF...."
But there most definatly is also the situation where the actress says "If you give me the part, THEN..."

And the hypocracy about that, tends to annoy me a bit.
 
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A_Thinker

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Let's not kid ourselves. This happens. Women who get promoted, women who land record deals or movie parts, not through talent or hard work, but by simply sleeping with the one who has the power to sign a contract.

I can't help but wonder, how many of those "me-too" people, fall into that category.

Surely they will regret their choice months, years later. Surely they will feel "abused". Surely they will feel "dirty" and ashamed. It would be very easy for them to jump on that bandwagon and play the victim card as well.

It is true that that is the way that some aspirants play the game.

But others fall victim to a culture which hurts the innocents as well.

And, once again, MOST sexual abuse/harassment happens in the home ... perpetrated by family members. The culture of silence has to be repudiated in order to protect these most defenseless members of our society.

It is for these (innocents) that we must strive to do better.
 
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com7fy8

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We don't know if the person did it for control or pleasure.
Well . . . if the hand on a woman's thigh is with someone he does not even know personally . . . I would keep my hands to myself.

In the news, we now have someone who is said to have violated some number of women; but he claims something like that he felt he had more going with them than they are saying. But one woman says she was crying about what he was doing, right while he was doing it? I think that would be hard for him to miss, if that is true.

But if a couple were getting hands-on because they have something with each other, that might mean a third possibility . . . tender affection . . . not only control or pleasure. But if I dearly love a lady . . . even so, I am going to be careful about where my hands go, so I don't start what I am not going to finish. And in my case it might not be really affection, but sensual; and so I need to keep myself to what is with affection.

By the way, if one has violated women, but claims he felt he had more going with them than they have indicated, I'd like to know if he knew any of their birthdays.

Yeah, I can hear someone thinking . . . know someone's birthday????? PLEASE :doh::scratch: :sigh:

:)

It's good to get to know someone, so you know what is really good for them. And each one is different; so we don't need to have a one-size-fits-all rule, I would say. Don't be so lazy; take some time and make an effort to really get to know someone and discover how to love with each other.
 
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Poppyseed78

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I think a lot of people who get accused of any form of abuse try to pass the buck and deflect responsibility for their behavior, so they will use whatever argument works in their favor.

One way in which I believe all men are, in fact, responsible is when they see abuse (in whatever form) happening and they don't speak up. Whether it's because they don't care, or they don't think it's their place and don't want to get involved, or because they are afraid to lose their own jobs, etc., their silence condones the abuse. Letting abuse slide perpetuates it.

If a man's friends see him degrading and verbally abusing his wife, and they say nothing, he thinks he's doing nothing wrong. If they said "Hey, that's not okay," maybe he would think twice about his behavior (or maybe not, but at least they spoke up). Often men will dismiss a woman's complaints, but if other men call him out for something, he might be more willing to take them seriously.
 
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Gadarene

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I think a lot of people who get accused of any form of abuse try to pass the buck and deflect responsibility for their behavior, so they will use whatever argument works in their favor.

One way in which I believe all men are, in fact, responsible is when they see abuse (in whatever form) happening and they don't speak up. Whether it's because they don't care, or they don't think it's their place and don't want to get involved, or because they are afraid to lose their own jobs, etc., their silence condones the abuse. Letting abuse slide perpetuates it.

If a man's friends see him degrading and verbally abusing his wife, and they say nothing, he thinks he's doing nothing wrong. If they said "Hey, that's not okay," maybe he would think twice about his behavior (or maybe not, but at least they spoke up). Often men will dismiss a woman's complaints, but if other men call him out for something, he might be more willing to take them seriously.

Because women always speak up when they see abuse.

Oh wait, nevermind, we’ve absolved women from blame on that one by....yup, blaming men again.

It’s the gift that keeps on giving.
 
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Poppyseed78

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Because women always speak up when they see abuse.

Oh wait, nevermind, we’ve absolved women from blame on that one by....yup, blaming men again.

It’s the gift that keeps on giving.

Women should speak up too, of course. But as I said, some men will dismiss the complaints of women and don't take them seriously. I've seen it myself. But when a man says the same exact thing, all of a sudden they listen.
 
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