‘All men responsible for stopping abuse/harassment’ - good cover for an abuser?

[Gadarene]

Or someone with a guilty conscience?

E.g. Not all men are guilty of violence and sexism – but all men have a responsibility to stop those crimes

As well as thousands of similar, cringeworthy articles in the wake of Weinstein/#metoo about how men have to ‘do better’ because of the actions of a few*.

More and more I keep thinking, with people who are outspoken on equality issues like Louis C.K. and George Takei falling under accusations recently - this line would be great cover for an abuser.

For example:
‘Yes, I have harassed women myself. But really, don’t you see how all men are responsible for this?”

The abuser’s guilt/responsibility is assuaged and minimised by passing it on to the male gender entire, while virtue-signalling to throw people off the abuser’s own trail.

Discuss.

*As a secondary topic, note how it is only men being told to ‘do better’ even though plenty of women have supported and enabled abusers like Weinstein. As always, I strongly encourage men not to pander to demands for contrition and imposition of collective guilt until enough women display their willingness to accept the same treatment. Either you are responsible for what you are personally responsible for, and that’s it - or all groups are liable for collective responsibility/guilt.

 

[Rion]

It's the result of identitarian and collectivist mindsets.

 

[Tolworth John]

Society wants to have cake and to eat it!

Either there are no rules or restrictions to sexual activity or there are rules for when one can or cannot have sex.

If there are no rules or very few rules then that leavesthe way open for those who will take advantage of their position, fame, influence, wealth etc to exploit others.

While this will still happen in a culture with strict sexual rules at least the vunerable will know what is or is not right behaviour and have a chance to avoid being taken advantage of.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

This sentiment misses the obvious.
1) Most sexual abuse in these situations are during one on one encounters. The other guys acting on it would be 3rd party who wasn't witness to the act.
2) Sexual harassment can be hard to detect because the workplace is filled with people who interact differently. Some people (a number of women too) interact in flirtatious ways just as a part of their personality. If an objection isn't clearly shown it is impossible to detect.

 

[A_Thinker]

Yes ... I think that should be considered to be a societal issue. Both genders need to work together to improve the situation.

 

[Saucy]

yeah, the way this stuff is portrayed is disgusting to me. These groups act like they care about other people, but if you're not fully like them, then you're not welcome to participate. I know when the #metoo hashtag started showing up, I saw two different men in two different places post that hashtag, but were ripped apart by women because apparently only women are allowed to join.

And this is what's wrong with identity politics. Rape isn't an issue that pertains only to women. I was raped when I was 6 and later molested. I'm a guy. This stuff impacts me too. To suggest I'm less of a victim of it because I'm a man is utterly disgusting. What we've seen lately is a string of women teachers getting arrested for having sex with their students. Women can rape too.

Just like with shooting deaths and cop killings. Identity politics says, 'we should only focus on the blacks who are killed, because that's racist!', but when the death rate is DOUBLE for whites, it shows that the issue, if it exists, is rampant through all races.

And that's the problem. People are too quick to label themselves victims and in order to do that, they need a boogeyman.

 

[grandvizier1006]

I would think if this was any group's fault, it would be all of society's. Shouldn't stopping this be a societal effort? It seems rather like traditional gender roles for women who are supposedly feminists to ask men to stop an issue that affects them on their behalf. Instead of looking for people to blame when a sexual assault happens, why don't we just blame the perpetrator of the crime like normal people?

 

[Christie insb]

yeah, the way this stuff is portrayed is disgusting to me. These groups act like they care about other people, but if you're not fully like them, then you're not welcome to participate. I know when the #metoo hashtag started showing up, I saw two different men in two different places post that hashtag, but were ripped apart by women because apparently only women are allowed to join.

And this is what's wrong with identity politics. Rape isn't an issue that pertains only to women. I was raped when I was 6 and later molested. I'm a guy. This stuff impacts me too. To suggest I'm less of a victim of it because I'm a man is utterly disgusting. What we've seen lately is a string of women teachers getting arrested for having sex with their students. Women can rape too.

Just like with shooting deaths and cop killings. Identity politics says, 'we should only focus on the blacks who are killed, because that's racist!', but when the death rate is DOUBLE for whites, it shows that the issue, if it exists, is rampant through all races.

And that's the problem. People are too quick to label themselves victims and in order to do that, they need a boogeyman.

I am so sorry you share in this terrible experience. I don't know why a woman would demean a man's experience of abuse. Maybe the person was young and foolish. I hope you have someone who will listen to you in person and re-emphasize that men victims deserve support and whatever justice can still be had. Some states are getting rid of the statute of limitations for sex crimes so maybe justice could still be served.

 

[zephcom]

Or someone with a guilty conscience?

E.g. Not all men are guilty of violence and sexism – but all men have a responsibility to stop those crimes

As well as thousands of similar, cringeworthy articles in the wake of Weinstein/#metoo about how men have to ‘do better’ because of the actions of a few*.

More and more I keep thinking, with people who are outspoken on equality issues like Louis C.K. and George Takei falling under accusations recently - this line would be great cover for an abuser.

For example:
‘Yes, I have harassed women myself. But really, don’t you see how all men are responsible for this?”

The abuser’s guilt/responsibility is assuaged and minimised by passing it on to the male gender entire, while virtue-signalling to throw people off the abuser’s own trail.

Discuss.

*As a secondary topic, note how it is only men being told to ‘do better’ even though plenty of women have supported and enabled abusers like Weinstein. As always, I strongly encourage men not to pander to demands for contrition and imposition of collective guilt until enough women display their willingness to accept the same treatment. Either you are responsible for what you are personally responsible for, and that’s it - or all groups are liable for collective responsibility/guilt.

I'm not completely sure I understand what you are trying to convey. I think you are trying to spread the blame for this issue as widely as possible in an effort to dilute responsibility by trying to make victims a part of the responsibility.

IMMHO, men, myself included, need to accept both personal and group responsibility for exercising wealth, power, and authority in order to achieve a level of sexual dominance and satisfaction. That women are known to be enablers and even supporters does not change the responsibility of men to behave in an honorable and responsible manner.

To suggest that women should share that responsibility is nothing more than an attempt to avoid responsibility. Men, generally, are good at trying to avoid responsibility for their behavior. But it is time for men to stop running away and do the hard work of accepting who we are and have been.

With that said, I think it is important that we, men and women, work to create a path for reconciliation that will allow men to accept and acknowledge their past without totally destroying their present.

Why?? Because sexually abusing women has been a nearly universal behavior with men for so long that likely very very few men, if they are being honest with themselves, don't have some incident of it in their past. I'm not opposed to women taking over the corporations and government, but a transition to that if every male is cast out of these endeavors in the next few years is very unlikely to succeed successfully simply because of lack of experience.

The nation needs to have men as well as women willing to make changes in the culture. We need both to explain to children why men needed to change and why women need to have the self-confidence to bring continuing bad behavior to light. To accomplish that, we need a path for men to accept their personal and group responsibilities and become the male figures which teach the younger generations.

Change is difficult. But it is necessary if we are going to bring a better culture to the planet.

 

[Gadarene]

I'm not completely sure I understand what you are trying to convey. I think you are trying to spread the blame for this issue as widely as possible in an effort to dilute responsibility by trying to make victims a part of the responsibility.

I’m not saying anything of the sort here, you have simply framed the problem inadequately.

Men are not the perpetrator class, and women are not the victim class, in this. Both men and women can be victims. Both men and women can be abusers and enablers.

IMMHO, men, myself included, need to accept both personal and group responsibility for exercising wealth, power, and authority in order to achieve a level of sexual dominance and satisfaction. That women are known to be enablers and even supporters does not change the responsibility of men to behave in an honorable and responsible manner.

It does if women are refusing to take on the same sort of group responsibility being foisted on men.

To suggest that women should share that responsibility is nothing more than an attempt to avoid responsibility. Men, generally, are good at trying to avoid responsibility for their behavior. But it is time for men to stop running away and do the hard work of accepting who we are and have been.

Speak for yourself. This is the sort of mindset I highlighted in the OP.

Men are the ones expected to take on collective responsibility in a way that women do not feel they should, but it’s men who are dodging responsibility? Seems legit

With that said, I think it is important that we, men and women, work to create a path for reconciliation that will allow men to accept and acknowledge their past without totally destroying their present.

Why?? Because sexually abusing women has been a nearly universal behavior with men for so long that likely very very few men, if they are being honest with themselves, don't have some incident of it in their past.

Given that most women seem to be ignorant of their ability as women to abuse, I’m sure a lot of women have them too. Again, there is no reason for men to accept treatment that women refuse to accept, even while both share in the responsibility for a particular problem existing.

I'm not opposed to women taking over the corporations and government, but a transition to that if every male is cast out of these endeavors in the next few years is very unlikely to succeed successfully simply because of lack of experience.

The nation needs to have men as well as women willing to make changes in the culture. We need both to explain to children why men needed to change and why women need to have the self-confidence to bring continuing bad behavior to light. To accomplish that, we need a path for men to accept their personal and group responsibilities and become the male figures which teach the younger generations.

Change is difficult. But it is necessary if we are going to bring a better culture to the planet.

We don’t need to tell children that men need changing and women don’t. That only reinforces the problems we have now.

 

[Gadarene]

I would think if this was any group's fault, it would be all of society's. Shouldn't stopping this be a societal effort? It seems rather like traditional gender roles for women who are supposedly feminists to ask men to stop an issue that affects them on their behalf. Instead of looking for people to blame when a sexual assault happens, why don't we just blame the perpetrator of the crime like normal people?

I suspect, as with many of these campaigns, the real goal is wrangling power, rather than fair treatment or equality.

 

[Gadarene]

yeah, the way this stuff is portrayed is disgusting to me. These groups act like they care about other people, but if you're not fully like them, then you're not welcome to participate. I know when the #metoo hashtag started showing up, I saw two different men in two different places post that hashtag, but were ripped apart by women because apparently only women are allowed to join.

And this is what's wrong with identity politics. Rape isn't an issue that pertains only to women. I was raped when I was 6 and later molested. I'm a guy. This stuff impacts me too. To suggest I'm less of a victim of it because I'm a man is utterly disgusting. What we've seen lately is a string of women teachers getting arrested for having sex with their students. Women can rape too.

Just like with shooting deaths and cop killings. Identity politics says, 'we should only focus on the blacks who are killed, because that's racist!', but when the death rate is DOUBLE for whites, it shows that the issue, if it exists, is rampant through all races.

And that's the problem. People are too quick to label themselves victims and in order to do that, they need a boogeyman.

As always, it does make me wonder why these women demand men care about their issues and expect them to provide it, when no care is shown to men going through the same issues.

 

[HannahT]

And this is what's wrong with identity politics. Rape isn't an issue that pertains only to women. I was raped when I was 6 and later molested. I'm a guy. This stuff impacts me too. To suggest I'm less of a victim of it because I'm a man is utterly disgusting. What we've seen lately is a string of women teachers getting arrested for having sex with their students. Women can rape too.

I'm so sorry, and you are CORRECT!!

When it happened to me as a child? You didn't speak of it, and it was swept under the carpet. That was the time in history in which that ending wasn't uncommon. I'm so glad things have changed since then, even though it will never be perfect. You can talk about it now, and you just couldn't when I was a child.

When it came to groping, and ugly comments? I was bit older at that point, but people tried to normalize it. It's just what men do. Yet, I knew that wasn't true. I had men in my life that NEVER would do that, and actively spoke out against it. Those different messages left me confused, and it wasn't until I was older did I see some attitudes as enabling. People need to remember it wasn't just the MEN that were enabling these 'it just the way men are' attitudes. It was women too. They floored me more than the men did when they said it.

I didn't vote for Clinton (Bill), because I saw his behavior as a HUGE character flaw. If his wife and daughter couldn't trust him in the most intimate of circumstances? I didn't understand WHY people felt they could trust him with bigger things. We had friends from Arkansas, and he had a HUGE repetition as governor as well. He was charismatic. No one can take that from him, but he was also a horndog. I just couldn't out of principal.

As a young person? All those things collectively show me that these things were NOT taken seriously, and it was taught - this is just life. If I didn't have some STRONG Decent men in my life? I speaking of character here - not brute strength. I'm not sure if I wouldn't have gone down a different rabbit hole in life. I'm thankful for those men, and they spoke OUT against the things that happened to me even in a time in history when it wasn't expected.

People are going to have an issue with admitting women LIE about these things too. Sadly, with the black and white thinking that is so popular today? It's going to cost some individuals their reputation, etc because you aren't allowed to question it. You will be accused of victim blaming, and be FLAMED! You will have innocent dragged through the mud, because we STILL can't talk about it properly.

Attitudes towards raising little boys - the article - as changed quite a bit. I notice it didn't touch on that. You might ALWAYS have some old fashion thinking in one form or another, but its not what it used to be.

The identity politics and the moral superiority that you find people playing? Then you find out that they also were friends with people like Weinstein, because what they could get from him - or cost them if they went against him? This isn't a unusual dynamic - past or present. Yet, they write diversion pieces like this about how to raise their boys better.

This topic can be scary, and its HARD to address. There is SO much more to discussion we will never have, because it seems we aren't ready for it as a society.

 

[Gadarene]

People need to remember it wasn't just the MEN that were enabling these 'it just the way men are' attitudes. It was women too. They floored me more than the men did when they said it.

With regard to the current celebrity harassment cases, have you noticed how often it’s female assistants handing the newbie actresses over to him like lambs to the slaughter?

Why don’t women need to ‘do better’ because of those women?

I didn't vote for Clinton (Bill), because I saw his behavior as a HUGE character flaw. If his wife and daughter couldn't trust him in the most intimate of circumstances? I didn't understand WHY people felt they could trust him with bigger things. We had friends from Arkansas, and he had a HUGE repetition as governor as well. He was charismatic. No one can take that from him, but he was also a horndog. I just couldn't out of principal.

I think this has become quite politicised a topic in all directions, but the fact remains that ‘believe the victim’ will be adopted or eschewed based on political and/or personal convenience at any given moment a lot of the time.

You have people like Lena Dunham and Sarah Silverman, both of whom share in the responsibility for the believe-the-victim mindset becoming so prevalent, dropping that standard very quickly when their male friends are the ones being accused. Ditto fans of Takei’s.

I’ve also seen a few pieces saying basically that Dem guys accused of harassment should be given more of a pass because their politics aren’t as harmful. At that point people are so far down the rabbit hole I don’t know what to suggest other than ignoring them. Equally, a lot of conservatives at the moment seem to be pretty selective about which....er......grabbers of body parts they condemn for harassment.

As a young person? All those things collectively show me that these things were NOT taken seriously, and it was taught - this is just life. If I didn't have some STRONG Decent men in my life? I speaking of character here - not brute strength. I'm not sure if I wouldn't have gone down a different rabbit hole in life. I'm thankful for those men, and they spoke OUT against the things that happened to me even in a time in history when it wasn't expected.

To be clear, I don’t mind speaking out about these things because it’s a good thing to do. I have handled harassment claims at work as a manager and always take them seriously. What I reject are the insinuations that I have some kind of collective responsibility as a man, that women don’t as women, to do something about this. Either both genders are collectively guilty or neither are and we treat people as individuals.

People are going to have an issue with admitting women LIE about these things too. Sadly, with the black and white thinking that is so popular today? It's going to cost some individuals their reputation, etc because you aren't allowed to question it. You will be accused of victim blaming, and be FLAMED! You will have innocent dragged through the mud, because we STILL can't talk about it properly.

Particularly when combined with politics. It’s been mostly Tory politicians accused of harassment over here. Nothing political going on there, I’m sure of it.

The identity politics and the moral superiority that you find people playing? Then you find out that they also were friends with people like Weinstein, because what they could get from him - or cost them if they went against him? This isn't a unusual dynamic - past or present.

Rose McGowan has been crusading against Weinstein and his business empire because of his sexual misconduct, yet was quite happy to work with a convicted paedophile. Not sure if I can link the whole interview but it was for a website called Advocate:

You’re starring in the upcoming thriller Rosewood Lane, which was written and directed by Powder’s Victor Salva, whose films often reflect his gay sensibility and outsider mentality. Is that the case with Rosewood Lane?

I don’t think so. And I do not have good clothes in that film either; I had to wear office-lady clothes and it killed me. That was an interesting dynamic, because Victor had never done a movie with a female lead, and he was uncomfortable. He really doesn’t relate to women well. He was open about that, which was slightly jarring, because I don’t really know what to do with that information.

Well, Salva is a convicted and registered sex offender, which might account for some social awkwardness.

Yeah, I still don’t really understand the whole story or history there, and I’d rather not, because it’s not really my business. But he’s an incredibly sweet and gentle man, lovely to his crew, and a very hard worker.

Yet, they write diversion pieces like this about how to raise their boys better.

If we are going to go the collective blame route - which gender does more child-rearing?

 

[zephcom]

I’m not saying anything of the sort here, you have simply framed the problem inadequately.

Men are not the perpetrator class, and women are not the victim class, in this. Both men and women can be victims. Both men and women can be abusers and enablers.



It does if women are refusing to take on the same sort of group responsibility being foisted on men.



Speak for yourself. This is the sort of mindset I highlighted in the OP.

Men are the ones expected to take on collective responsibility in a way that women do not feel they should, but it’s men who are dodging responsibility? Seems legit



Given that most women seem to be ignorant of their ability as women to abuse, I’m sure a lot of women have them too. Again, there is no reason for men to accept treatment that women refuse to accept, even while both share in the responsibility for a particular problem existing.



We don’t need to tell children that men need changing and women don’t. That only reinforces the problems we have now.

I did say that I wasn't sure what you were trying to say. But your response here seems to indicate that I was more right than wrong in understanding what you were saying.

Both men and women CAN be victims. I agree. But the reality is that in the vast majority of situations, it is the women who are victims. Demanding that the few cases where women are the abuser should absolve men of completely accepting their own lack of honor and responsibility is just trying to spread the blame. The few men who have come forward as victims seem to all be victims of men, not women.

When men have repaired the damage they have done and moved forward in an honorable and responsible manner, THEN the few women who are sexual abusers can be addressed.

The teachings are for each of us to first remove the plank from our own eyes before worrying about the sliver in the eyes of others. From a different POV, physician heal thyself first.

America is a patriarchal society in which men dominate nearly all aspects of the culture. It is time men stop dominating the sexual aspect of the culture and end our sexually abusive behaviors. And we should do it without first demanding anything from anyone else. We can't expect everyone else to fix their issues before we are even willing to consider our own issues. That is just a cop out designed to avoid having to lift a finger to improve ourselves.

We should do the right thing for no other reason than it is the right thing to do. In this case, that means doing the right thing even if there is a woman somewhere in America who is still a sexual abuser. Her existence does not excuse our own behavior.

 

[Dave-W]

Society wants to have cake and to eat it!

"Anyone can have their cake and then eat it. The trick is to eat it and then still have it." Capt. Dylan Hunt to Trance Gemini "Andromeda."

 

[Tolworth John]

Poissible with a cake, but not with contradictory requirements.

 

[Gadarene]

I did say that I wasn't sure what you were trying to say. But your response here seems to indicate that I was more right than wrong in understanding what you were saying.

You keep saying that but keep strawmanning me.

Both men and women CAN be victims. I agree. But the reality is that in the vast majority of situations, it is the women who are victims.

That we know of - and given that we drastically underrate women’s propensity to commit abuse and crime in general - and that we aren’t witchhunting women the way we are witchhunting men over harassment claims, that’s not a claim you can make with any real certainty.

This is also assuming that the relative proportions of male and female perpetrators has any relevance on whether women should be taking on collective guilt as well, which is a rather charitable assumption.

Demanding that the few cases where women are the abuser should absolve men of completely accepting their own lack of honor and responsibility is just trying to spread the blame.

No, it’s requesting consistency from people preaching about equality. If they are not willing to apply the same standard to women that they are men then there is no real reason to take them seriously. There is no such thing as a permissible amount of abuse, and I hope that’s a relatively uncontroversial statement.

When men have repaired the damage they have done and moved forward in an honorable and responsible manner, THEN the few women who are sexual abusers can be addressed.

Well, this isn’t totally arbitrary.

Actually, I’ve just decided that racial inequality needs fixing first before women can go on about their little harassment problem. Logic.

*facepalm*

The teachings are for each of us to first remove the plank from our own eyes before worrying about the sliver in the eyes of others. From a different POV, physician heal thyself first.

Which.....would constitute an argument in favour of mine - women should not be foisting collective guilt on men when they are generally not as willing to take it on themselves, despite being complicit in the same problems.

America is a patriarchal society in which men dominate nearly all aspects of the culture. It is time men stop dominating the sexual aspect of the culture and end our sexually abusive behaviors. And we should do it without first demanding anything from anyone else. We can't expect everyone else to fix their issues before we are even willing to consider our own issues. That is just a cop out designed to avoid having to lift a finger to improve ourselves.

That argument, again, applies to women who refuse to take on collective guilt while foisting it on men. Why should they expect men to fix their issues before they have considered theirs?

We should do the right thing for no other reason than it is the right thing to do. In this case, that means doing the right thing even if there is a woman somewhere in America who is still a sexual abuser. Her existence does not excuse our own behavior.

Nah - we do this equality thing properly, or not at all. An inconsistently applied standard is not equality in the first place, and that’s exactly what you and these authors are promoting here. And one wonders why.

 

[HannahT]

When men have repaired the damage they have done and moved forward in an honorable and responsible manner, THEN the few women who are sexual abusers can be addressed.

The bible never promises us a Utopia. We have moved into a better place compared to the past. I see my twenty something daughter, and she is freer in so many way compared to me at her age. Culture will never be perfect, and we don't need to wait until that day to address women that commit these evil acts. That' just nonsense.

I will agree statistics show men are more likely to commit these acts, but that doesn't give us an excuse to minimize the impact or pain it causes when the opposite is true. That's just denial, and the reason we are in this boat to begin with. You never ignore damage like that, because men need to STEP UP first! UGH!!! This attitude is just as bad as the reverse.

The honorable and responsible human beings have a HUGE impact on people's life. I get the impression your heart is in the right place, but God would never tell you to ignore people like that. Men and Women both need to step up their games. We all need to improve, and be able to speak about uncomfortable subjects like this. We all have our aspects that we need to work on.

One biggie? Stop being all mouth and no action when it hits close to home. You notice society tends to circle the wagons when it enters our personal sphere. That's when the true characters of the individuals involved really surface.

 

[Tree of Life]

Society wants to have cake and to eat it!

Either there are no rules or restrictions to sexual activity or there are rules for when one can or cannot have sex.

If there are no rules or very few rules then that leavesthe way open for those who will take advantage of their position, fame, influence, wealth etc to exploit others.

While this will still happen in a culture with strict sexual rules at least the vunerable will know what is or is not right behaviour and have a chance to avoid being taken advantage of.

This is a good point. Western Civilization has rejected the Biblical sexual ethic, but it has failed to articulate a replacement. The Western sexual ethic is at best unclear and at worst fraught with contradictions.