¿¡Catholics for a free choice!?

[Teshi]

That's because we have been to lazy since general Franco.

Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.

 

[BigNorsk]

18 weeks here in Sweden.

Look what I found on the website of the "Church" of Sweden :

"Tillskillnad från många frikyrkor och den Romersk-Katolska kyrkan försvarar Svenska Kyrkan kvinans rätt till abort. Vi menar att bibeln aldrig motsätter sig abort och att foster inte är fullt utvecklade spädbarn under de veckor som abort tillåts ske. Vidare anser vi att det är antikristligt att vara emot kvinnans rätt till abort då Jesus predikade för kvinnans rättigheter."

Literal Translation: "Contrary to many nonconformist churches and the Roman-Catholic Church, we in the Church of Sweden defends the womans to abortion. We knows that the bible never opposes abortion and that foetuses are not fully developed infants during the weeks that abortion is allowed. Further we belive that it is antichristian to be against the womans right to abortion since Jesus preached for female rights."

Damn liars and puppets of the government!

Alway hard to tell in short summary statements, but did you know that the Roman Catholic Churches position of when a person's life begins followed for many years the position of Thomas Aquinas? That is that life begins for a boy at 40 days and for a girl at 90 days? That was actually canon law for many years. That is not to say that the Roman Catholic church did not consider abortion to be a serious thing, but it was not, if done before those times an ending of a human life, they did not believe the person had yet received their soul.

Life beginning at conception did not become the consistent official position of the Roman Catholic Church until quite recently.

This is of more than a passing interest in the United States. When our Supreme Court was making the decision of Roe v Wade, it went into every tradition that was a foundational thing in our Constitution, because our Constitution really does not treat you like a human being until you are born, but anyway, they looked into every one including Roman Catholicism. And Roman Catholicism had the most conservative position at the time the Constitution was written but that was life for a boy at 40 days and a girl at 90. English common law said quickening, when the mother could feel the child move was the beginnin of life, and so on. Many other traditions that went into our Constitution did not treat you as a human being until birth, I can't remember if any did not treat you as a human until you were a year old.

When you look at the Swedish national church, they made their break with Rome at a time that Rome's position was different than today. I note that they are talking that the infants are not fully developed during the time that abortion is allowed. That really sounds like it is likely that they are basically still following what was the historic Roman Catholic position on when life really began.

Canon law in 1140 actually did use the quickening as Augustine had taught as the point of ensoulment. See: Decretum Magistri Gratiani 2. 32.2.7 to 2.32.2.10

This was changed by Pope Sixtus V in 1588 when he made all abortions illegal, but that was again changed by Pope Gregory XIV who codified that abortions up to 16 1/2 weeks were not equivalent to ending a human life.

And we see for instance that even English Common law was really rooted in this instance in the Roman Catholic Church for it was Pope Innocent III who really laid out that ensoulment did not occur before quickening.

So anyway, you can't say our Constitution was written using traditions that came later, and the position of the Roman Catholic Church you see today came later. A key time was in 1869 when Pope Pius IX declared all abortions to be homicide. Finally in 1983 all the distinctions between the fetus animatus and the fetus inanimatus were purged from canon law.

I think what you are seeing is the Swedish state church is actually still holding to the historic teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and it can be confusing because there is often an attitude within the Roman Church that they alway have had what they have today for positions, and that would be historically incorrect.

I should note that I don't think the position of the Swedish state church is really defensible biblically, it never really was, but then the roots of many things aren't the bible. For the whole ensoulment theology you really need to go to Aristotle which seems to me to be the source of the various ensoulment theories that operated for years in the Roman Catholic Church. Universities and Seminaries taught a lot of Aristotle for many centuries in Europe and so you see Aristotle have quite an effect on European Churches over the years.

Marv

 

[AwedbyTruth]

Thomas Aquinas may not have believed that the soul was instilled in the body till 40-80 days but he was against abortion in all forms.

The Church Fathers have continually been against abortion.

 

[Rhamiel]

BigNorsk, we have a much better understanding of science now then we did in those days

 

[D'Ann]

WHAT KIND OF EVIL IS THIS!? "Catholics" for a "free choice", ie. foul liberals supporting fortification and the murder of unborn babies!?

Does your Archibshops know about this? This kind of heretics (a spade is a spade) should be excommunicated for their rejection of dogma and of Christian morale and ethics!

IMHO, this why the holy inquisition is still needed, to protect Christendom from this kind of false converts. Their views are abominations and a threat to all that we stand for. It's time for a big "Deus Vult"!

Not sure about the holy inquisition or "Deus Vult", but I do believe that abortion is an intrinsical evil in our society.

what kind of evil...? the worse possible kind.

I completely agree.

FYI folks...
Catholics for a free choice is a group of dissenting nuns.. and their followers.

Yep, they were kicked out of the Church with the hopes they will retract their errors.

Some have returned. But not all, and not most. Still out spreading lies that the CC and their nuns deny life at conception and that a fetus is a blob.

I read their stuff...its sad.

It's very sad and heart breaking. They need our prayers.

˙ǝǝɹƃɐsıp oʇ ǝǝɹƃɐ oʇ ǝʌɐɥ ʇsnɾ llıʍ ǝʍ

Yup... but it's sad when good Catholics are being misled in this way.

For anyone thinking of becoming a member of Catholic for a free choice:

I know that at least one Archbishop has excommunicated members of his diocese that are in this group. I would really talk to your priest and contact your archdiocese about whether joining this group would be safe for your soul.

This is good to know. Thanks.

 

[BigNorsk]

BigNorsk, we have a much better understanding of science now then we did in those days

I did not realize that the Roman Catholic church has instituted a practice of taking doctrine from science. Thank you for the heads up.

Marv

 

[PetertheRock]

*big groan*

You ignore the fact that we Americans live in a country that values freedom. You can't win people over with your approach. You will alienate them more often than not.

Americans live as a free country. Catholics don't have the same freedom. As Catholics, we are called to follow the teachings of the Church. If we don't...we are no longer Catholics.

 

[D'Ann]

I did not realize that the Roman Catholic church has instituted a practice of taking doctrine from science. Thank you for the heads up.

Marv

Hi Marv,

The CC does NOT institute any doctrine from science.

 

[PetertheRock]

But in America, citizens are free to BE atheist, muslim, jewish, polytheistic, wiccan, or whatever else they want. That is the whole point of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."

That is why a Christian approach will not work in this country. Lawmakers can not say that any law has to be overturned because it goes against God. They just CAN'T. They have to look at it from a different angle.

And as a result of that, going around telling people that they should be excommunicated from the Church, or quoting Scriptures, theologians, and ECF's is just not going to be effective on the majority.

The approach... if you actually want to REACH people, has to be one that they are open to receive.

You have to always consider your audience.

Under your argument, I should be free to kill you. I should be free to kill the Somalis I don't like. I should be free to kill anyone that I don't like or disagree with. The only difference between that freedom and the freedom to kill a child in the womb is you, the Somalis, and the people I don't like and disagree with have an opportunity to defend themselves.

I mean, people are going to kill each other anyway...murder is outlawed so if we legalize first degree murder we could solve the prison overpopulation problem.

 

[fated]

Occam's razor:
Why would we need to re-define "person?"

The answer is pretty nasty... can someone figure it out?

 

[Catholic Christian]

WHAT KIND OF EVIL IS THIS!? "Catholics" for a "free choice", ie. foul liberals supporting fortification and the murder of unborn babies!?

Does your Archibshops know about this? This kind of heretics (a spade is a spade) should be excommunicated for their rejection of dogma and of Christian morale and ethics!

IMHO, this why the holy inquisition is still needed, to protect Christendom from this kind of false converts. Their views are abominations and a threat to all that we stand for. It's time for a big "Deus Vult"!

Are you just now learning about this evil? Lukewarm Catholics have allowed many evils to creep into the Church. I can say this because I was one myself once, and now I ask God to forgive my stupidities.

Follow Jesus.
Pray the Rosary.
Study the Catechism.
Be obedient to the Magesterium.

In these ways will we restore our Catholic Christian faith to its glory.