¿¡Catholics for a free choice!?

[BAFRIEND]

Any publically pro-choice Catholic is excommunicated ipso facto.

 

[BAFRIEND]

“The penalty of excommunication for abortion extends to the mother, all medical personnel, anyone who offers the mother moral or financial support to abort, as well as those who publicly campaign for legalized abortion. Incidentally, no formal notification of such excommunication is necessary, as it takes effect as soon as the action is performed.” p. 77 The Catholic Answer Book vol 1, Rev. Peter M.J. Stravinskas PH.D S.T.D.


Congregation for the Doctorine of Faith: Declaration on Abortion
National Congress of Catholic Bishops: “No Catholic can responsibly take ‘a pro-choice’ stand when the ‘choice’ in question involves the taking of innocent human life”.

.

 

[Imperiuz]

General Franco ?

You want to admire a fasicst douche bag ?

He did many bad things, and he introduced many cruel punishments, but he supported the church (opus dei was founded during that time) and he had the pope's blessing. What are you doing to fight evil?

Taking into consideration the actual real society in which we live, making something illegal that was once legal.

We live in an ungodly democratic capitalist society which is all about making money, using the poor and fooling the stupid majority. To compromise your religious views with those of liberalocapitalism would be deny Jesus as he said:

"He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:16, Douay-Rheims bible)

No one is addressing the underlying issues.

Liberalism, Modernism, Democracy, Capitalism (ie. poverty), Separation of Church and State and other "ways to hell" as Pope Gregory XVI called them.

Who is working on the underlying issues?

The Church?

Any publically pro-choice Catholic is excommunicated ipso facto.

Thank God for that!

(why don't you excommunicate Michael Moore then?)

 

[fated]

I offer anyone the right to ignore angry red text.

Of course, abortion is often about the use of resources for one personal comfort (cars, houses, and unfulfilling crap).

 

[BAFRIEND]

My big quesition in all this is:

How do you trick out the question marks and exclaimation points to be upside down like that ?

¿ʇi ʇ,usı unɟ s,ʇi

 

[fated]

We need to learn to have compassion for the women who seek abortion and the child they have ruthlessly slaughtered.

Abortion is only good for economics, and even that only to a point; When you kill the future generation, you kill the future.

 

[Davidnic]

Any publically pro-choice Catholic is excommunicated ipso facto.

Not really. It all revolves around remote material co-operation. A case can be made for such a thing but it is not officially ruled on and theologians argue on the topic. It would be argued that if they meet the necessary standards:

1. Be able to make the decision in sound mind
2. Not be forced
3. Know the penalty exists
4. Vote with the intention of furthering access to abortion
5. Do so "with hand raised" basically thumbing their nose at C law.

Then a Catholic politician would be. But again. This is always judged on an individual basis and even the current Pope...though agreeing with some Bishops decision to excommunicate and/or restrict communion to pro-choice politicians (The Mexico situation)...has not said that should be extended to all ipso facto.

The Vatican made the statement:

The thrust of the Pope's remarks, Father Lombardi said, was that politicians who support legal abortion should not receive Communion. The Pope was not declaring anyone excommunicated, he said, but the individuals who vote for abortion "have excluded themselves from Communion.

In addition:

Can. 1398 A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

Canon 1324 mitigates punishment if you did not know of the rule. But it does not remove some form of penance. Just the excommunication. Excommunication is a call to change and stop sinning. So you need to know about it or it is putative and vengeful and not in line with it's purpose.

Now the reason people argue to extend the excommunication to knowingly putting a pro-choice politician in office is canon 1329 section 2:

Accomplices who are not named in a law or precept incur a latae sententiae penalty attached to a delict if without their assistance the delict would not have been committed, and the penalty is of such a nature that it can affect them; otherwise, they can be punished by ferendae sententiae penalties.

basically those who actively vote and campaign for those who state they will further the cause of abortion are knowingly aiding and helping to extend and create the situation.

Some canon lawyers argue that all politicians who would vote on laws and further the cause of abortion are definitely subject to 1329 section 2. And I have seen canon lawyers argue that it can apply to voters as well but each situation is different.

So basically yes. Now, there is some leeway based on individual situation, intent, culpability and such.

But if someone votes for a pro-choice politician...because they are pro-choice as one of the reasons (that is important)...then yes every canon lawyer and statement I have seen would apply the automatic excommunication if the person knows the penalty exists.

Some canon lawyers (a majority) would argue it goes further. But the intention of the voter must be:

"I am voting for this person because they are pro-choice and they will further that cause."

Or something similar.

It, as all things, is case by case with circumstances we can not know to make the determination.

People should be warned that it is a reality but we should not say we know exactly that they meet the parameters of the canon law.

Now if they say: "I am a Catholic and I vote for people so they make abortions more widely available."

That is gravely wrong and seems to fit right in the wheelhouse of Canon law on this. Catholics for a Free Choice would be at this level.

It all comes down to proving this:

Accomplices who are not named in a law or precept incur a latae sententiae penalty attached to a delict if without their assistance the delict would not have been committed, and the penalty is of such a nature that it can affect them; otherwise, they can be punished by ferendae sententiae penalties.

Remote material co-operation. Not easy...and not the realm of the laity.

 

[vle045]

He did many bad things, and he introduced many cruel punishments, but he supported the church (opus dei was founded during that time) and he had the pope's blessing. What are you doing to fight evil?

We live in an ungodly democratic capitalist society which is all about making money, using the poor and fooling the stupid majority. To compromise your religious views with those of liberalocapitalism would be deny Jesus as he said:

"He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:16, Douay-Rheims bible)

Liberalism, Modernism, Democracy, Capitalism (ie. poverty), Separation of Church and State and other "ways to hell" as Pope Gregory XVI called them.

The Church?

Thank God for that!

(why don't you excommunicate Michael Moore then?)

*big groan*

You ignore the fact that we Americans live in a country that values freedom. You can't win people over with your approach. You will alienate them more often than not.

 

[WarriorAngel]

WHAT KIND OF EVIL IS THIS!? "Catholics" for a "free choice", ie. foul liberals supporting fortification and the murder of unborn babies!?

Does your Archibshops know about this? This kind of heretics (a spade is a spade) should be excommunicated for their rejection of dogma and of Christian morale and ethics!

IMHO, this why the holy inquisition is still needed, to protect Christendom from this kind of false converts. Their views are abominations and a threat to all that we stand for. It's time for a big "Deus Vult"!

They were ex-communicated many years ago.
They try to retain the name.... but they are in no way part of the CC nor are they universal.

 

[WarriorAngel]

FYI folks...
Catholics for a free choice is a group of dissenting nuns.. and their followers.

Yep, they were kicked out of the Church with the hopes they will retract their errors.

Some have returned. But not all, and not most. Still out spreading lies that the CC and their nuns deny life at conception and that a fetus is a blob.

I read their stuff...its sad.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

He did many bad things, and he introduced many cruel punishments, but he supported the church (opus dei was founded during that time) and he had the pope's blessing. What are you doing to fight evil?

Well, for one thing I'm not ruling a country by doing bad things and introducing cruel punishments.

Of course I don't have the popes blessnig either.

Maybe if I killed somebody in the name of corpo-fascism Benny would would smile on me.

 

[Imperiuz]

You ignore the fact that we Americans live in a country that values freedom. You can't win people over with your approach. You will alienate them more often than not.

"it's never too late..."

I am not an enemy of freedom. I'm an enemy of atheism and social injustice.

They were ex-communicated many years ago.
They try to retain the name.... but they are in no way part of the CC nor are they universal.

Thank God for that! Still, if they are excommunicated, why aren't Michael Moore? He even invited homophiles to mock Fred Pheps!

FYI folks...
Catholics for a free choice is a group of dissenting nuns.. and their followers.

I would rather have the SSPX back, actually...

Maybe if I killed somebody in the name of corpo-fascism Benny would would smile on me.

He's a lot better than that JP II...

 

[BAFRIEND]

Well, for one thing I'm not ruling a country by doing bad things and introducing cruel punishments.

Of course I don't have the popes blessnig either.

Maybe if I killed somebody in the name of corpo-fascism Benny would would smile on me.

˙ǝǝɹƃɐsıp oʇ ǝǝɹƃɐ oʇ ǝʌɐɥ ʇsnɾ llıʍ ǝʍ

 

[vle045]

FYI folks...
Catholics for a free choice is a group of dissenting nuns.. and their followers.

Yep, they were kicked out of the Church with the hopes they will retract their errors.

Some have returned. But not all, and not most. Still out spreading lies that the CC and their nuns deny life at conception and that a fetus is a blob.

I read their stuff...its sad.

Thanks for the info. I will read futher before I choose to follow them or anything. I just like the idea of working at it from the bottom rather than simply prohibition. I just think it is far too complex now to just prohibit and call it a day. That's the only thing I reject is just the idea that all we need to focus on is getting a law passed.

 

[vle045]

"it's never too late..."

I am not an enemy of freedom. I'm an enemy of atheism and social injustice.

But in America, citizens are free to BE atheist, muslim, jewish, polytheistic, wiccan, or whatever else they want. That is the whole point of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."

That is why a Christian approach will not work in this country. Lawmakers can not say that any law has to be overturned because it goes against God. They just CAN'T. They have to look at it from a different angle.

And as a result of that, going around telling people that they should be excommunicated from the Church, or quoting Scriptures, theologians, and ECF's is just not going to be effective on the majority.

The approach... if you actually want to REACH people, has to be one that they are open to receive.

You have to always consider your audience.

 

[Rhamiel]

Thanks for the info. I will read futher before I choose to follow them or anything. I just like the idea of working at it from the bottom rather than simply prohibition. I just think it is far too complex now to just prohibit and call it a day. That's the only thing I reject is just the idea that all we need to focus on is getting a law passed.

The Catholic Church does a lot of work for social justice, it is not like we do not do anything

 

[fated]

Thanks for the info. I will read futher before I choose to follow them or anything. I just like the idea of working at it from the bottom rather than simply prohibition. I just think it is far too complex now to just prohibit and call it a day. That's the only thing I reject is just the idea that all we need to focus on is getting a law passed.

Here's the French perspective.

Of course the US has open elective abortion with little regulation, and that is really in contrast to abortion in many European countries.

Germany cuts abortion off after 12 weeks and the UK 20, for instance.

 

[colleen]

For anyone thinking of becoming a member of Catholic for a free choice:

I know that at least one Archbishop has excommunicated members of his diocese that are in this group. I would really talk to your priest and contact your archdiocese about whether joining this group would be safe for your soul.

 

[Imperiuz]

18 weeks here in Sweden.

Look what I found on the website of the "Church" of Sweden :

"Tillskillnad från många frikyrkor och den Romersk-Katolska kyrkan försvarar Svenska Kyrkan kvinans rätt till abort. Vi menar att bibeln aldrig motsätter sig abort och att foster inte är fullt utvecklade spädbarn under de veckor som abort tillåts ske. Vidare anser vi att det är antikristligt att vara emot kvinnans rätt till abort då Jesus predikade för kvinnans rättigheter."

Literal Translation: "Contrary to many nonconformist churches and the Roman-Catholic Church, we in the Church of Sweden defends the womans to abortion. We knows that the bible never opposes abortion and that foetuses are not fully developed infants during the weeks that abortion is allowed. Further we belive that it is antichristian to be against the womans right to abortion since Jesus preached for female rights."

Damn liars and puppets of the government!

 

[BAFRIEND]

For anyone thinking of becoming a member of Catholic for a free choice:

I know that at least one Archbishop has excommunicated members of his diocese that are in this group. I would really talk to your priest and contact your archdiocese about whether joining this group would be safe for your soul.

I recall the president of a state chapter of Planned Parenthood also being publically excommunicated in the 80s.