“Once Saved Always Saved” a dangerous delusion?

[Skala]

Salvation is to benefit man not God if God's glory is out of self interest and not man's own benefit please do substantiate WHY it is so...

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

 

[Skala]

Let's exegete Ephesians 1 and ignore personal opinions.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Never SAVED to begin with, is an INFINITELY worse delusion!

 

[Kormagh]

Never SAVED to begin with, is an INFINITELY worse delusion!

Thumbs up

 

[3rdHeaven]

Whether you believe it or not is irrelevent. Sola Scriptura remember?



Salvation primarily exists to bring God glory. To glorify and exalt his own attributes. Namely mercy and grace, etc.

And whether you believe it or not is equally irrelevant. Tho I do find it peculiar that you think God would *need* to Glorify Himself


I think perhaps you confuse our glory to God, which we can't help but to glorify God since He is so Great. God Himself does not need to glorify Himself and adding such a weak human attribute to God is IMHO in bad taste and inaccurate.

btw, how do you image God Glorifying Himself?

Wow I am sooo GREAT, Glory be to Myself?

 

[Skala]

And whether you believe it or not is equally irrelevant. Tho I do find it peculiar that you think God would *need* to Glorify Himself


I think perhaps you confuse our glory to God, which we can't help but to glorify God since He is so Great. God Himself does not need to glorify Himself and adding such a weak human attribute to God is IMHO in bad taste and inaccurate.

btw, how do you image God Glorifying Himself?

Wow I am sooo GREAT, Glory be to Myself?

Am I the only one that can see Ephesians 1:3-12?

Also, I never said God "needed" to glorify himself. My argument all along is that Ephesians 1:3-12 teaches that salvation exists to bring God glory.

Will you argue that no, it doesn't?

 

[3rdHeaven]

Am I the only one that can see Ephesians 1:3-12?

Also, I never said God "needed" to glorify himself. My argument all along is that Ephesians 1:3-12 teaches that salvation exists to bring God glory.

Will you argue that no, it doesn't?

I agree with Ephesians 1:3-12 teaches that salvation exists to bring God glory.

But disagree that means God needs to Glorify Himself.

If we agree on that fine, some seem to think God Glorifies Himself which I disagree with.

 

[Skala]

Not a single person in this thread said that God needed to glorify himself.

Edit, i misread your post.

I do believe God does all things to bring himself glory. So we are still in disagreement. I simply meant he didn't "need" to do it.

 

[Skala]

some examples:

God raised up Pharaoh to destroy Him to make his own great name known on earth.

he works all things according to the counsel of his own will - and all things bring him glory.

Creation is for God's glory (For his pleasure were all things created)
Salvation is for God's glory (it demonstrates his mercy and grace)
Damnation is for God's glory (it demonstrably and glorifies his wrath, justice, and hatred of sin)
God's revealed law is for God's glory

everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." Isa 43:7

The Lord was pleased, for his righteousness' sake, to maginify his law and make it glorious" (Isa 42:21).

Our good works glorify God:

"Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God" (1 Cor. 10:31).

"Let your light so shine among men that they may see your good deeds and give glory to your Father in heaven" (Mt. 5:16).

God hardens hearts to glorify himself:

Exodus 14:4, "And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD."

It seems that the purpose of the universe, creation, and salvation is to bring God glory!

 

[nobdysfool]

God does indeed Glorify Himself, and all creation exists to bring Him Glory. He is absolutely Pure, Holy, and Perfect, and Glorifying Himself does not have the same stigma that humans glorifying themselves does. To try and imagine God glorifying Himself in the same way as humans do, for the same motives, and for selfish reasons, is to do a grave injustice to God, and to massively misunderstand His Nature, and His Attributes, as He has revealed them.

 

[Skala]

God does indeed Glorify Himself, and all creation exists to bring Him Glory. He is absolutely Pure, Holy, and Perfect, and Glorifying Himself does not have the same stigma that humans glorifying themselves does. To try and imagine God glorifying Himself in the same way as humans do, for the same motives, and for selfish reasons, is to do a grave injustice to God, and to massively misunderstand His Nature, and His Attributes, as He has revealed them.

Well said.

We need to realize that when God does something it is completely free of sin. We can't view it in the same light as the human experience.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

And then on top of the MASSIVE DELUSION of never being SAVED "BY" THE GOD OF SALVATION in the first place! Continuously plague your miserable selves with the scorn of contradiction in disbelief against the "VERY GOD OF SALVATION" you think you believe in. Seeking every possible way to "PROVE HOW YOU AND EVERY ONE ELSE CAN "LOOSE" THEIR SALVATION! AND FAR WORSE THAN THAT, TORMENTING THOSE WHO ARE TRULY ETERNALLY SAVED WITH WICKED FALSE PROJECTIONS,AND SEEMINGLY NEVER ENDING PESSIMISTICALLY EVIL AND FALSE SUGGESTIONS! WHO'S THE REAL LOOSER IN ALL THIS?? STEP OUT OF YOUR TINY LITTLE "NEGATIVE" BOX FOR GOD ALMIGHTY! AND REASONABLY THINK FOR TWO LOGICAL SECONDS! AND DECIDE FOR YOUR SELVES WHICH TWO BELIEF'S ARE MORE NOBLE AND GLORIFYING TO GOD??
TO DEFEND THE GOD OF SALVATION, AND AUTHOR AND FINISHER THEREOF,AND THEREIN! THAT HE ALWAYS FINISH'S WHAT HE STARTS,AND BRINGS IT TO A PERFECT COMPLETION! UNLIKE THE GREAT COWARD CALLED "MANKIND"! I NEITHER GLORIFY HIM FOR HIS ABILITY TO ACHIEVE HIS OWN SALVATION, NOR FOR HIS ABILITY TO LOSE SOMETHING HE NEVER HAD! I KEEP ALL MEN, INCLUDING MYSELF IN THE WRETCHED DUST WHERE HIS WRETCHED FLESH ALWAYS 100% BELONG'S! BESIDES CHRIST! GLORY BE TO GOD,AND HIM ALONE!!!!!!!!!

 

[Morik]

Hello, first post here. I have been reading and mulling over the forums for a while, and want to participate in discussions. I wish to know the word more. I want more biblical knowledge so that I will acquire more Jesus knowledge (in order to thirst for Him more).

I learned this verse over thirty five years ago and it is perfect for this thead.

Hebrews 13:5 Let your character or moral disposition be free from love of money [including greed, avarice, lust, and craving for earthly possessions] and be satisfied with your present [circumstances and with what you have]; for He [God] Himself has said, I will not in any way fail you nor give you up nor leave you without support. [I will] not, [I will] not, [I will] not in any degree leave you helpless nor forsake nor let [you] down ( relax My hold on you)! [ Assuredly not!]

Four times God declares this in one verse yet religious men still believe their salvation is based on their will not Gods'

God will never forsake us. Contextually, he is stating that we should not let our character or moral disposition be affected by circumstance, because he will always be there, and even emphasizes the fact. God will never forsake us, but can we forsake him? Yes, I believe salvation is based on man's will. It is the very reason we exist, to not be "robots", but to choose to worship Him.

Hebrews 10:35-39
"Therefore, do not throw away your confidence; it will have great recompense. You need endurance to do the will of God and receive what he has promised. "For, after just a brief moment, he who is to come shall come; he shall not delay. But my just one shall live by faith, and if he draws back I take no pleasure in him." We are not among those who draw back and perish, but among those who have faith and will possess life."

In order to "draw back and perish", you must have some place to draw back from. I am sure the unsaved cannot be "drawn back", but the saved can. This verse, contextually, is discussing our relationship with the Messiah, which is directly discussing the topic of OSAS.

 

[Skala]

I appreciate the honesty and consistency of the poster above me. (Morik)

He believes salvation is based on man's will, therefore, it is it consistent to believe that the truly saved can be unsaved and be eternally lost. Since salvation is based on man, it makes sense to believe that man can mess up and do something to become unsaved.

I wish more were consistent like him.

Personally, I believe salvation is based on God's will. It is God's doing, God's work from beginning to end. He changes our hearts, brings us to Christ, gives us faith and repentance, and then keeps us. Therefore, the consistent view with this perspective is that the truly saved can never be unsaved. Since it is God's doing, not man's

 

[1Prophetess]

Yes, I agree fully with Skala.

The Bible clearly states that, once saved, we are new creatures. 2 Corinthians 5: 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation;

If we are new creatures, we would have to be killed to die. If we are a new creature, created by God, then who can kill us?

And the Bible also tells us that nothing can take us out of God's hand. John 10: 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

When we get eternal life, we get life that lasts forever. It isn't temporary life until we do something stupid. If it depended on us, it wouldn't be very secure, now would it?

The "anyone" has to refer to any one--not another of any sort. So it means that not a single being can snatch us out of the Father's hand or out of Jesus' hand.

If we believe we can lose our salvation after reading these verses, we must also believe:

1) that "eternal" does not mean "eternal," and,
2) "neither can anyone snatch them out of My hand" has to have qualifications (some can do it on their own).

Either we believe in Jesus' words or we believe that Jesus lies. If Jesus words are lies, then how can there be any salvation, and we are all doomed!

I believe Jesus was right. How about you?

 

[Skala]

My question to those who believe one can lose his salvation is this:

If Jesus paid for all of your sins, which sins are left-over that are unpaid for that can condemn you to hell?

If you "mess up" and lose your salvation, what sin exactly are you committing that isn't already paid for by Christ?

 

[Morik]

Skala, Thank you so much for greeting my first post with respect and welcoming. It meant a lot, and you have my respect back.

I will clarify what I meant when I stated that salvation is based on man's will. Scripture clearly states that he wants ALL men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-7), so in accordance to that, it IS God's will that we become saved (have a two-way relationship with Jesus the Christ). But, it is also man's will, because although he wants all to be saved, we must humble ourselves and accept that. Ultimately it is our choice, not God's. Although he is seeking us fervently, He cannot make us love him.

And the Bible also tells us that nothing can take us out of God's hand. John 10: 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

I totally agree, Prophetess. According to this verse, no one can snatch us out of His hand. No one, including ourselves even, and you stated correctly that "anyone" includes said person. On the other hand, "snatch" is not quite the same as "making the choice to leave My hand." We cannot snatch ourselves from His hand.

If Jesus paid for all of your sins, which sins are left-over that are unpaid for that can condemn you to hell

None, because Jesus already paid for all my sins, past, present and future. But if I stop believing this, it doesn't apply to me anymore.

(John 15:6 NIV) If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

(James 5:19-20 NIV) [19] My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, [20] remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

If you "mess up" and lose your salvation, what sin exactly are you committing that isn't already paid for by Christ?

You cannot "mess up" and lose your salvation. Losing your salvation is not something that happens when you make a mistake. Christ paid for those mistakes, through and through. It is a matter of the heart.

A good example explaining this would be David his dealing with Uriah and Bathsheba. David was on track with God, but then decided he wanted Bathsheba, had sexual relations with her, and effectively killed her husband Uriah. Nathan then confronted him about it, and David repented. He was brought back on track. Now, if David had died before Nathan had confronted him, would David be damned to hell? I believe he would still go to heaven.

Why?

His heart. He never fell from Christ because he still had a repentant heart, and knew what he was doing was sin. Now if Nathan never approached him about it, and he ignored it, hid it, and never repented, then I believe David would not make it to heaven. Hypothetically.

(Hebrews 10:26-27 NIV) [26] If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, [27] but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

 

[hope_is_last_to_die]

abiding in Christ, the key issue, salvation is only found in Christ, a person can make a choice to either abide in Christ or to reject Him, if they abide in Him they will have salvation but if they reject Him they will be lost

 

[heymikey80]

If someone rejects Christ how might it be said they had been regenerated?

 

[Hentenza]

abiding in Christ, the key issue, salvation is only found in Christ, a person can make a choice to either abide in Christ or to reject Him, if they abide in Him they will have salvation but if they reject Him they will be lost

In other words, salvation is the purview of man not of God. Man can save himself. Heck, Jesus could have saved himself a lot of pain and grief if that was the case.