“Non-Christians Are Like Animals in spirit”(quote)???

[Avodat]

And there was a Chinese guy there, too, who ran the inn. How do we know that? Because Yosef said, 'Lo, my wife is pregnant'.






(apologies to the OP - nothing personal!)

 

[Gxg (G²)]

On this Sunday in Beijing China I heard a preaching of a church of Protestantism. The preacher said:”The difference between Christians and Non-Christians is like the difference between Human and Animal.

I think there is something to be said on the ways that animals were used to represent mankind in differing states of beings...and I'd be curious as to know which type of animals he was likening to Non-Christians. If saying that all Non-Christians are like animals of a certain type, then that's something that can easily be reconciled since the scriptures do show such many times (again, Psalm 49 saying that all mankind apart from the Lord is like a brute beasts that perishes and like sheep to slaughter). Also, if saying that all Non-Christians are like all Animals in the sense of how animals have a lower purpose/rank than than mankind, that is also not problematic since believers who have been transformed by the Spirit of the Lord are indeed on a higher level than the rest of mankind who chooses not to know him (the concept of being transformed according to Romans 6-8 and II Corinthians 5 and Ephesians 4/Colossians 3 on being NEW Creations vastly different/superior from the rest of humanity)

In Christ, when becoming a New-Creation, that's a significant advancment up in how we are....

Again, at times, it was the case that people who were non-believers were deemed to be like animals in the negative sense....but there is also reference for animals being used in symbolism for good qualities established by the Lord himself.

Isaiah 40:31
but those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.
Isaiah 40:30-31


Ezekiel 1:10
Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a human being, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle.
Ezekiel 1:9-11

Revelation 4:7
The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle.
Revelation 4:6-8 Revelation 4
​

Other times, when people were in sin, animals were used as references to show them concepts of shame. David, a type of Christ, writes in Psalm 22:6, "But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people." Sometimes, certain imagery was continually negative...as is the case with the ways dogs were not highly esteemed in the Bible and those who were deemed to be unbelievers often associated with them.

And to be clear, it wasn't just in regards to unbelievers who were Gentiles as is often told. Even Paul used it to describe Jewish Judaizers in Philippians 3:2 and the term was used also to describe enemies of the Lord who were apostate Israelites....while the term was also used to describe those who had not yet been transformed to the level the Lord wanted. God already spoke highly of Gentiles multiple times and often shared his heart on reaching out to them just as it was with Israel (many people actually being apart of Israel that were really Gentiles....more shared here, here, here , here, here and here )...so to assume that all usages of the term "dog" on Gentiles means a negative would be off. There was actually a difference that often occurred between little dogs (pets) and those who were carnivores/predators that the Bible often spoke of in a negative sense---and with the Phonecian woman in Matthew 15 whom Christ called a "dog", that was in the lesser sense of house animal. It didn't have the same connotation as saying someone was "hated" like other types of dogs

There were differing levels as to the use of the Word and its implications.

Many assume based on this that the Lord somehow despises dogs, although there are cultural factors to consider. In example, as another said best:

The Bible mentions dogs 32 times, mostly negatively (I Sam. 17: 43; 24: 14. II Sam. 3: 8; 9: 8; 16:9). When God adopted the children of Israel to become His chosen people, for example, and regulated their diet, He commanded, "And ye shall be holy men unto me: neither shall ye eat any flesh that is torn of beasts in the field; ye shall cast it to the dogs" (Exodus, 22:31). Notwithstanding, medieval homilies explain this command as a reward for dogs' good behavior during the Exodus. By refraining from barking, dogs are said to have facilitated the flight of the Hebrews to the Promised Land (Exodus 11: 7). Still, their connection with carrion and carcasses makes dogs despicable. According to Jeremiah, their essential impurity will burden dogs with carrying the dead on Doomsday (Jeremiah 15:3). The Book of Proverbs adds this: "As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly" (Prov. 26: 11; II Peter 2: 21-22). The Bible also uses dogs as a metaphor to hint at the poor status of men (II Kings 8: 13; Job 30: 1) or at such lowly elements of society as the enemy (Psalms 22: 16, 20), traitors (Psalms 59: 6, 14), and false prophets (Isaih 56: 10-11). No wonder, therefore, that Deuteronomy proscribes the admittance of dogs and harlots into the House of the Lord (23: 18), a peculiar association that is also suggested in the Book of Kings (I Kings, 22: 38). The apocryphal Book of Enoch utilizes canine symbolism in describing the Philistines, Ammonites, and Edomites, all of whom posed a danger to the chosen people (LXXXIX).

The negative approach of Biblical narrative to dogs is problematic in light of the prevailing attachment to them in agrarian and nomadic societies, in which they fulfilled guard functions and -- at least from this instrumental angle -- were highly esteemed. One explanation lies in the Bible's opposition to remnants of polytheism, especially Egyptian cults and rites. Anubis, the god of death, had a dog's head, and Isis, the goddess of the netherworld, was represented as riding on a dog (Allen Woods, 1954). Still, other animals such as falcons, scarabs, cows, hawks, crocodiles, jackals, lionesses and hippopotami were incorporated into the Egyptian pantheon without generating the negative imagery surrounding dogs in the Bible. On the doctrinal level, then, the reasons for the Biblical animosity to dogs remains open to analysis. From an ecological perspective, however, the existence of savage dogs, with the accompanying problem of rabies, might provide a suitable answer, one that is corroborated by later Moslem tenets.


.........The patronizing tone toward animals in general did not advance the status of dogs or their image in the Apostolic age. In his eschatological vision, St. John perpetuated the Biblical connection of dogs to harlots (Rev., 22: 15). Together with the most despicable strata of human society, the only representatives of the animal kingdom so singled out, dogs were excluded from heavenly Jerusalem. Jesus further corroborated their dishonorable status, decreeing: "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you" (Matthew 7: 6). Both Matthew (15: 26) and Mark (7: 27) testified that Jesus requested of the Greek woman: "Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs." On the other hand, an old legend seemingly ascribes a more benign approach by Jesus: After witnessing a crowd voicing repugnance toward the carcass of a dog, He supposedly said: "How white its teeth are!" Of course, this story illustrates admirable qualities of Jesus rather than high estimation of a dead dog. No wonder, therefore, that St. Paul advised the Philippians: "Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision" (Phil., 3: 2).

Canines in Medieval Christendom

The attitude of most saints runs from overt aversion to latent contempt, especially in the Early Middle Ages. Compared to other animals like horses, donkeys, lambs, or birds, and especially pigeons (Boglioni, 1983), dogs seem to have played not only a marginal role at the side of early medieval saints but also a very negative one. This rejecting attitude was perhaps influenced by the widespread belief in the existence of cynocephalic creatures, whose canine aspect testified to their iniquitous, debased behavior.

...............Similar to the tendency found in pagan tradition to associate dogs with death, Christian homilies often present dogs as tools of divine punishment or as messengers from the after-life. Besides the well-known Biblical Jezebel (I Kings, 21: 23, II Kings, 9: 30-36), there is a story of the burial of an adulterous woman whose tomb is surrounded by dogs, all attempts to drive them away failing (Etienne de Bourbon, Anecdotes, 263-64).



​

There was an excellent article on the issue entitled Animal imagery (Forerunner Commentary) :: Bible Tools. And for others:

• Jesus, the Syrophoenician Woman, and Little Dogs
• Sermon: Even the Dogs Feed on the Crumbs
• Paul's Reversal of Jews Calling Gentiles 'Dogs' (Philippians 3:2 ...
• Jesus and the Canaanite woman: Divine insult or figure of speech ...
• Mark 7:24-37: In Desperate Need - Bible Studies - intervarsity.org
• The Faith Of A Canaanite Woman (Matthew 15:21-28) | Bible.org ...
• Matthew 15 - Jesus Corrects the Pharisees and Ministers to Gentiles
• The people's New Testament commentary - Page 139 - Google Books Result

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I met the elder of that church yesterday, but did not discuss this Issue. He was very humble and adopted a conciliatory attitude, worth me learning. I also confessed I was not polite enough to him. We forgave each other.

In their Bible learning group, I introduced a little about MJ.

Praise the Lord for grace to have pleasant/conciliatory interactions

 

[visionary]

May God grace to them be reflected in you towards them.

 

[Lulav]

At that time, I was just looking for a safe way, so "Israel" was in my mind, strangely not the word "Yeshua".” Israel is the bride of Yeshua, they are in one.

And I met the elder of that church yesterday, but did not discuss this Issue. He was very humble and adopted a conciliatory attitude, worth me learning. I also confessed I was not polite enough to him. We forgave each other.

In their Bible learning group, I introduced a little about MJ.

That is all good things!

 

[Lulav]

And there was a Chinese guy there, too, who ran the inn. How do we know that? Because Yosef said, 'Lo, my wife is pregnant'.






(apologies to the OP - nothing personal!)

You need

 

[Michaelismyname]

I think you are thinking about the Christian idea of the nativity. It says no where in the bible that animals worshiped Yeshua.

Christmas Animal Legends

• Animals are able to speak at midnight on Christmas Eve

• Cattle kneel on Christmas to worship baby Jesus

• Indian lore believes that deer kneel on Christmas night and look at the sky in praise of the Great Spirit

• An English legend holds to the belief that bees would gather on Christmas Eve to hum a hymn

• Tabby cats were given the stamp of the letter "M" on their heads, as thanks from Mary for comforting baby Jesus after his birth

wow really? in 46 years i have never once heard of those - are they RC ?

 

[Michaelismyname]

questions not arguments

is it true that folk ever slept or kept livestock in the same room as living quarters?
it seems in old testament times (such as tent dwelling times ) that would not be practiced [reasons of hygiene and smell ]and it seems to make sense that the same practice would have continued into more permanent dwellings

 

[Gxg (G²)]

questions not arguments

is it true that folk ever slept or kept livestock in the same room as living quarters?

it seems in old testament times (such as tent dwelling times ) that would not be practiced [reasons of hygiene and smell ]and it seems to make sense that the same practice would have continued into more permanent dwellings

Curious as to what is seen as reasons for animals to be in the same living quarters as people and why smell would be a reason not to. For when many parts of the world do just that---with people sleeping on dirt floors or having animals near and in conditions people in the West are uncomfortable with---there's no reason to think that people in OT Times would have been against that when they lived in harsh times as well. Their ideology of hygiene and smell isn't the same as what happens and is often accepted in the 21st century.

With tents, the tents in the OT were usually oblong in shape, and divided into two, and sometimes three apartments by goat's hair curtains. The entrance leads into the apartment for the men, which also serves as the reception apartment. Beyond this is the apartment for the women and children. And sometimes there is a third apartment for servants or for cattle. The women in the inner apartment are screened from the view of those in the reception room, but they can hear what goes on in that room. Thus Sarah in her apartment overheard what the angel guest said in the reception apartment of Abraham's tent (Genesis 18:10-15). In some cases there is a separate tent for the women. It took several tents to care for the large family of Jacob. Reference is made to Jacob's tent, to Leah's tent, to Rachel's tent, and to the tent of the two maidservants (Genesis 31:33).

For a good study reference on the issue, one can go here.

​

The first reference in the Scriptures to tent life is concerning the man Jabal, of whom it is said, "he was the father of such as dwell in tents" (Genesis 4:20). Following the Flood the Sacred Record says, "God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem" (Genesis 9:27). The patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob lived most of their lives in tents, in and around the land of Canaan. It was said of Abraham that he "pitched his tent" in the vicinity of Bethel (Genesis 12:8), that Isaac "pitched his tent in the valley of Gerar" (Genesis 26:17), and Jacob "pitched his tent before the city (of Shechem)" (Genesis 33:18). The Children of Israel lived in tents during their forty years in the wilderness. Moses said of them, "The children of Israel shall pitch their tents, every man by his own camp" (Numbers 1:52). And Balaam "lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes" (Numbers 24:2). For many years after the entering of the Promised Land, Israel still lived in tents. In the days of David it was said to the king, "The ark and Israel and Judah, abide in tents" (II Samuel 11:11), indicating that many of the people at that time were tent-dwellers. Even at the time of the revolt of the ten tribes under Jeroboam and their separation from Judah, the cry went forth, "To your tents, O Israel" (I Kings 12:16).

When the tribes gathered together at such small places as Gilgal, and Shiloh, they undoubtedly brought their tents with them. And after the temple was built at Jerusalem the people would make their pilgrimages there to celebrate the feasts of the LORD, and many thousands of them would sleep in tents on the mountains surrounding the city. Like the Jews of old, the Nomad or Bedouin Arabs of Israel, and especially those of Trans-Jordan, have been living in tents for centuries, and their manner of life is strikingly like unto that of the early Bible characters. ...and it's rather fun studying the tent structures of Bible lands of today since it throws much light on how the men of early Bible times actually lived.

In Arab tents, the sides (curtains) of the tent (Isa 54:2) are made of strips of goats hair cloth or from mats woven from split cane or rushes. Where more than one family occupies the same tent or the animals are provided with shelter under the same roof (compare 2 Ch 14:15), curtains of the same materials mentioned above form the dividing walls. One traveler among these nomads had this to say about them: "the word "home" does not mean to him what it means to us. Of our idea of home he has no conception . . . His home is the little spot where his tent is pitched and his flocks are gathered at night. His country - his fatherland - is the limited district over which he roams in summer."

If the Bedouin Arabs live together as a tribe or a clan, as they often do, or if more than one family dwell with each other, then their tents are not pitched in a promiscuous cluster, but more likely in a large circle to make it possible for at least some of their flocks to be protected inside the circle. But sometimes, the animals were brought inside rooms to stay. As said before, Middle/Near-Eastern culture is radically different than what others often think and hygiene has to be seen from their perspective of what was actually done. There were not a concept of "barns" where all the animals stayed seperate from the people in all contexts (more shared here in Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes: Cultural Studies in the Gospels - Page 31 )

In peasant homes of the time, mangers were located in the main part of the house. As Kenneth Bailey points out, “Each night into that designated area, the family cow, donkey and a few sheep would be driven. And every morning those same animals were taken out and tied up in the courtyard of the house. The animal stall would then be cleaned for the day”. The animals are put in the house because, “they provide heat in winter and are safe from theft”.

The Bible even reveals this practice of keeping animals in the house:

• 1 Samuel 28:24 (ESV) — 24 Now the woman had a fattened calf in the house, and she quickly killed it, and she took flour and kneaded it and baked unleavened bread of it,

• Judges 11:31 (ESV) — 31 then whatever comes out from the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the Ammonites shall be the LORD’s, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.” Jephthah assumed it would be one of his animals not his daughter.

• Luke 13:15 (ESV) — 15 Then the Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the manger and lead it away to water it? As stated earlier, the animals are taken out of the house (untied) every morning and led out of the house – even on the Sabbath. Interestingly, the phrase used by Luke 13:12, “you are freed” literally means “untied”.And the earliest Arabic version of the NT from the 9th century translates Luke 13:15 as, “does not every one of you untie his ox or his donkey from the manger in the house and take it outside and water it?”


​

This, as said earlier, goes back to addressing what did take place during things such as the Nativity event. It would not have been odd for Joseph and Mary to be in the same room as many of the animals since that was common during that time. Of course, in two story homes, there could be rooms above where the animals were so as to add heat to the rooms were....but to be amongst the other animals in the same room would not have been odd. And to be clear, the Gospel of Luke doesn’t mention a single animal being present at the nativity. However, there are some things which can be inferred. In example, we can’t speak for the donkeys not being present automatically since their presence at the manger when Jesus was Born would have been likely. After, it was a hotel stable...and we can assume there were all sorts of manger using animals hanging around. Even if the hotel guests weren’t traveling with donkeys, remember, at least one donkey would have been present, the one Mary rode in on.

As it concerns differing views of the issue, some excellent places to go for consideration:

• The Manger and the Inn
• Away in a Manger, But Not a Barn - Bible Study Magazine
• The Nativity According to Luke - Biblical Archaeology Review

 

[Lulav]

wow really? in 46 years i have never once heard of those - are they RC ?

I'm not sure of their origin, but then are described as 'legends' not from Biblical sources.

 

[Lulav]

questions not arguments

is it true that folk ever slept or kept livestock in the same room as living quarters?
it seems in old testament times (such as tent dwelling times ) that would not be practiced [reasons of hygiene and smell ]and it seems to make sense that the same practice would have continued into more permanent dwellings

I'm not sure what you are speaking about, in the time of Yeshua they did not dwell in tents, only on Sukkot. This reminded them of the time they had temporary dwellings, tents, in the wandering in the wilderness for 40 years without a home.

In the time of Yeshua, families would sleep above the place where they kept their animals. On a hot night, it would be the roof. The animals on the first floor was very efficient. It kept them close by in case someone wanted to steal them, also in the winter they helped to heat the house as their heat rose to the second floor where the family slept.

The story has been anglicized to the point of having almost nothing in common as to what happened in the middle east.

4 So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. 5 He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. 6 While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.

The only link to animals is the shepherds that came later on to see the new King. It doesn't say that they brought the sheep with them, and there is no mention of any animals where Mary and Joseph were staying, but it makes for a great pageant!

It is surmised that there was no room in this small town of Bethlehem, because it was Sukkot, a pilgrim festival.

 

[Yusuphhai]

I think there is something to be said on the ways that animals were used to represent mankind in differing states of beings...and I'd be curious as to know which type of animals he was likening to Non-Christians. If saying that all Non-Christians are like animals of a certain type, then that's something that can easily be reconciled since the scriptures do show such many times (again, Psalm 49 saying that all mankind apart from the Lord is like a brute beasts that perishes and like sheep to slaughter). Also, if saying that all Non-Christians are like all Animals in the sense of how animals have a lower purpose/rank than than mankind, that is also not problematic since believers who have been transformed by the Spirit of the Lord are indeed on a higher level than the rest of mankind who chooses not to know him (the concept of being transformed according to Romans 6-8 and II Corinthians 5 and Ephesians 4/Colossians 3 on being NEW Creations vastly different/superior from the rest of humanity)

Thanks for your work.

The preacher did not mentioned what kinds of animal he pointed to. I think he emphasized People who were under the label “non-Christian” VS “Christian”. This kind of simple difference of category made no sense. The essence is much more important than the appellation. The teacher of Saul Gamaliel was a “non-Christian”, but his mind was open to the truth of G-d. I don’t think people like Gamaliel was also like animal. He just did not know the gospel very clearly, but knew more clearly than many people who call themselves “Christian”.

 

[Michaelismyname]

I'm not sure what you are speaking about, in the time of Yeshua they did not dwell in tents, only on Sukkot. This reminded them of the time they had temporary dwellings, tents, in the wandering in the wilderness for 40 years without a home.

In the time of Yeshua, families would sleep above the place where they kept their animals. On a hot night, it would be the roof. The animals on the first floor was very efficient. It kept them close by in case someone wanted to steal them, also in the winter they helped to heat the house as their heat rose to the second floor where the family slept.

The story has been anglicized to the point of having almost nothing in common as to what happened in the middle east.

The only link to animals is the shepherds that came later on to see the new King. It doesn't say that they brought the sheep with them, and there is no mention of any animals where Mary and Joseph were staying, but it makes for a great pageant!

It is surmised that there was no room in this small town of Bethlehem, because it was Sukkot, a pilgrim festival.

sorry i think you misread me . i jut meant from long long before that time when Abraham was tent dweller - i cant see that they would have kept animals INSIDE a tent (living quarters ) and i just figured that practice {of not doing it } would have carried over to living in more permanent dwellings .
It seems to me it would be perfectly acceptable to believe,if there had been animals in the manger, - they would have been hastened out ..i mean think about it - your wife's about to have a baby ! you'd rush about in a man panic trying to do what you could lol .

 

[Michaelismyname]

Curious as to what is seen as reasons for animals to be in the same living quarters as people and why smell would be a reason not to. For when many parts of the world do just that---with people sleeping on dirt floors or having animals near and in conditions people in the West are uncomfortable with---there's no reason to think that people in OT Times would have been against that when they lived in harsh times as well. Their ideology of hygiene and smell isn't the same as what happens and is often accepted in the 21st century.

With tents, the tents in the OT were usually oblong in shape, and divided into two, and sometimes three apartments by goat's hair curtains. The entrance leads into the apartment for the men, which also serves as the reception apartment. Beyond this is the apartment for the women and children. And sometimes there is a third apartment for servants or for cattle. The women in the inner apartment are screened from the view of those in the reception room, but they can hear what goes on in that room. Thus Sarah in her apartment overheard what the angel guest said in the reception apartment of Abraham's tent (Genesis 18:10-15). In some cases there is a separate tent for the women. It took several tents to care for the large family of Jacob. Reference is made to Jacob's tent, to Leah's tent, to Rachel's tent, and to the tent of the two maidservants (Genesis 31:33).

For a good study reference on the issue, one can go here.

​

The first reference in the Scriptures to tent life is concerning the man Jabal, of whom it is said, "he was the father of such as dwell in tents" (Genesis 4:20). Following the Flood the Sacred Record says, "God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem" (Genesis 9:27). The patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob lived most of their lives in tents, in and around the land of Canaan. It was said of Abraham that he "pitched his tent" in the vicinity of Bethel (Genesis 12:8), that Isaac "pitched his tent in the valley of Gerar" (Genesis 26:17), and Jacob "pitched his tent before the city (of Shechem)" (Genesis 33:18). The Children of Israel lived in tents during their forty years in the wilderness. Moses said of them, "The children of Israel shall pitch their tents, every man by his own camp" (Numbers 1:52). And Balaam "lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes" (Numbers 24:2). For many years after the entering of the Promised Land, Israel still lived in tents. In the days of David it was said to the king, "The ark and Israel and Judah, abide in tents" (II Samuel 11:11), indicating that many of the people at that time were tent-dwellers. Even at the time of the revolt of the ten tribes under Jeroboam and their separation from Judah, the cry went forth, "To your tents, O Israel" (I Kings 12:16).

When the tribes gathered together at such small places as Gilgal, and Shiloh, they undoubtedly brought their tents with them. And after the temple was built at Jerusalem the people would make their pilgrimages there to celebrate the feasts of the LORD, and many thousands of them would sleep in tents on the mountains surrounding the city. Like the Jews of old, the Nomad or Bedouin Arabs of Israel, and especially those of Trans-Jordan, have been living in tents for centuries, and their manner of life is strikingly like unto that of the early Bible characters. ...and it's rather fun studying the tent structures of Bible lands of today since it throws much light on how the men of early Bible times actually lived.

In Arab tents, the sides (curtains) of the tent (Isa 54:2) are made of strips of goats hair cloth or from mats woven from split cane or rushes. Where more than one family occupies the same tent or the animals are provided with shelter under the same roof (compare 2 Ch 14:15), curtains of the same materials mentioned above form the dividing walls. One traveler among these nomads had this to say about them: "the word "home" does not mean to him what it means to us. Of our idea of home he has no conception . . . His home is the little spot where his tent is pitched and his flocks are gathered at night. His country - his fatherland - is the limited district over which he roams in summer."

If the Bedouin Arabs live together as a tribe or a clan, as they often do, or if more than one family dwell with each other, then their tents are not pitched in a promiscuous cluster, but more likely in a large circle to make it possible for at least some of their flocks to be protected inside the circle. But sometimes, the animals were brought inside rooms to stay. As said before, Middle/Near-Eastern culture is radically different than what others often think and hygiene has to be seen from their perspective of what was actually done. There were not a concept of "barns" where all the animals stayed seperate from the people in all contexts (more shared here in Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes: Cultural Studies in the Gospels - Page 31 )

In peasant homes of the time, mangers were located in the main part of the house. As Kenneth Bailey points out, “Each night into that designated area, the family cow, donkey and a few sheep would be driven. And every morning those same animals were taken out and tied up in the courtyard of the house. The animal stall would then be cleaned for the day”. The animals are put in the house because, “they provide heat in winter and are safe from theft”.

The Bible even reveals this practice of keeping animals in the house:

• 1 Samuel 28:24 (ESV) — 24 Now the woman had a fattened calf in the house, and she quickly killed it, and she took flour and kneaded it and baked unleavened bread of it,

• Judges 11:31 (ESV) — 31 then whatever comes out from the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the Ammonites shall be the LORD’s, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.” Jephthah assumed it would be one of his animals not his daughter.

• Luke 13:15 (ESV) — 15 Then the Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the manger and lead it away to water it? As stated earlier, the animals are taken out of the house (untied) every morning and led out of the house – even on the Sabbath. Interestingly, the phrase used by Luke 13:12, “you are freed” literally means “untied”.And the earliest Arabic version of the NT from the 9th century translates Luke 13:15 as, “does not every one of you untie his ox or his donkey from the manger in the house and take it outside and water it?”


​

This, as said earlier, goes back to addressing what did take place during things such as the Nativity event. It would not have been odd for Joseph and Mary to be in the same room as many of the animals since that was common during that time. Of course, in two story homes, there could be rooms above where the animals were so as to add heat to the rooms were....but to be amongst the other animals in the same room would not have been odd. And to be clear, the Gospel of Luke doesn’t mention a single animal being present at the nativity. However, there are some things which can be inferred. In example, we can’t speak for the donkeys not being present automatically since their presence at the manger when Jesus was Born would have been likely. After, it was a hotel stable...and we can assume there were all sorts of manger using animals hanging around. Even if the hotel guests weren’t traveling with donkeys, remember, at least one donkey would have been present, the one Mary rode in on.

As it concerns differing views of the issue, some excellent places to go for consideration:

• The Manger and the Inn
• Away in a Manger, But Not a Barn - Bible Study Magazine
• The Nativity According to Luke - Biblical Archaeology Review

yes but ..the pictures only affirm to me the Unlikelihood of having animals inside living Quarters .. i mean reality speaks loud - have you been near a cow when it lets loose? or even a goat . you'd have a bed full of "ick" clothes full, bed full, plate full. i just don't see it . near by ..outside the tent sure - but in it .. doesn't fit for me having grown up farming .
i just think the nativity scenes are a nice concept ..but i think the animals would have been given lowest priority and if they were there at all would have been hustled well to the side if not Out.- the mans wife was having a baby lol - you just have to allow for the practicality of life .

 

[Gxg (G²)]

yes but ..the pictures only affirm to me the Unlikelihood of having animals inside living Quarters ... i mean reality speaks loud - have you been near a cow when it lets loose? or even a goat . you'd have a bed full of "ick" clothes full, bed full, plate full. i just don't see it . near by ..outside the tent sure - but in it .. doesn't fit for me having grown up farming .

There were no pictures given of animals living inside quarters, nor does talking of "likelihood" change what was documented to have happenend for a long time over the centuries.

History's history....and for others living present in the Middle East and often noting where mangers were located within homes and how family often stayed there alongside the animals, that cannot be changed. The same goes for animals that were sometimes brought into tents earlier in history. Horses often brought in within Arabic culture since they were prized and not to be stolen...

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If one wants to talk about reality living out loud, IMHO, one can go to the Middle East or some parts of Africa and say they're disgusting for the times animals are in their tents and people have slept in the same places as animals, be it in times desert sandstorms happened and they were brought inside or times people looked out for the animals with them to bring heat/avoid being stolen. Only in the West is there really a lot of concern many times with not being around things due to the smells....for when it's about survival, you do what you have to do. Having animals in the same quarters doesn't mean you sleep in the same part of the room as them---hence, why animals were generally located on one part of things. They don't generally use the restroom when they're sleeping anyhow---and as said before, once awakened, animals were taken back outside. But you'd not be sleeping on a donkey or a sheep like it was a pillow. Seeing other friends who grew up farming and have lived life with others doing so as well, it's not a hard reality to picture.

i just think the nativity scenes are a nice concept ..but i think the animals would have been given lowest priority and if they were there at all would have been hustled well to the side if not Out.- the mans wife was having a baby lol - you just have to allow for the practicality of life

Having children in a Middle Eastern/Near Eastern culture is not the same as where you're at nor the times we live in the same as then...as it was not odd for people to stay in inns where the mangers were in the rooms many family would stay in often---and as there was no time to get all the animals out since it was already crowded in the house and the manger was where they could be at, it'd be reading into the story assuming people then would take time to get animals out of the house for Joseph and Mary since they were supposed to be inside the houses at night. On the side of the rooms by the mangers in the homes. That was a matter of taking care of livelihood properly..and People have had children in far crazier and kept things going---and Joseph and Mary would have been no different

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thanks for your work.

The preacher did not mentioned what kinds of animal he pointed to. I think he emphasized People who were under the label “non-Christian” VS “Christian”. This kind of simple difference of category made no sense.

The essence is much more important than the appellation. The teacher of Saul Gamaliel was a “non-Christian”, but his mind was open to the truth of G-d. I don’t think people like Gamaliel was also like animal. He just did not know the gospel very clearly, but knew more clearly than many people who call themselves “Christian”.

Interesting perspective, in light of where Paul noted the Judaizers (unsaved) to be "dogs" and so did the psalmists who noted the enemies of God as such (ravens as well).

Of course, as the Lord also refers to His people as "sheep" and those who are not believers as "goats", again, animal references are within a context that must be considered. Even the people coming after Christ were seen by him to be like "sheep without a shepherd"---and anyone who knows sheep understands that they're some very dumb animals. Not a flattering compliment when the Lord notes his people to be such....and Gamaliel, as one who may've been highly open (alongside already intelligent) to truth, would still be seen as a type of animal according to the Lord. Those who are deemed to not be of the Lord are already noted to be "brute beasts"---sheep destined for slaughter as the Psalmist said in Psalm 49---and thus, one has to take that into account.