“Herd Immunity.” The flawed science and failures of mass vaccination.

[mafwons]

You need to actually go and look up some facts. It's not worthwhile trying to even discuss with you.

It may well be worth it, but you appear to lack anything to bring to the table in regards to facts.

 

[Hetta]

The facts are available. You are the one who makes the statements that this and that can't happen. It's on you to prove that. Off you go.

 

[Senator Cheese]

I did not see anyone suggest the right to spread disease. Oh I get it, if you choose not to get vaccinations you are automatically spreading diseases. Good one but a little short in the facts department. Not getting vaccinated does not mean you have a disease, oh is that the misconception here. Hey I see well.it works like this if you don't have the disease you cannot spread it to others, and if you do have the disease and the well behaved sheeple around you are vaccinated then you cannot dpread it to them. Any questions? This is actually funny what if I were an anti vaxer not just supportive of them, I feel way worse for them now than I did prior to this because I see the level of hate they are dealing with.

Claim #1: Not getting vaccinated does not mean you have a disease.
Fact-Check: True
Absolutely correct. Not getting vaccinated does not mean you have a disease, but it means you are susceptible to it.

Claim #2: If you do not have the disease you cannot spread it around.
Fact-Check: False
You can be carrier of a contagion without developing symptoms.
You can also be contagious before developing symptoms.

Claim #3: The "well behaved sheep" can't get the disease then.
Fact-Check: False
For one, the "well behaved sheep" can't all get vaccinated. I have friends who are immunosurpressed due to chronic arthritis or lupus. Another one has leukemia in remission. All of them CAN'T get vaccinated. They'd like to, seeing as how even "minor" childhood diseases can kill them, but they are dependent on herd immunity for protection. To them, getting sick is not just being in bed for a few days with a fever, but it is a battle of life and death.

Not only those, but let's not forget that vaccines do not initiate a proper immune response in all cases, but sometimes only work in 60-80% of all patients - that means, all non-responders (the remaining 20%) are also dependent on herd immunity.

Vaccinations aren't a question of freedoms.
Vaccinations are a question of whether or not your personal convenience justifies the death of those who have hit rock bottom when it comes to their immune system.

 

[Nithavela]

Ah, that's so saddening. Polio damaged a lot of lives. What a massive and incredible innovation is the polio vaccination.

I especially love the small toy dog tucked behind the belt that fixates the childs neck.

It's the little things...

 

[Senator Cheese]

No on the chickenpox and this is what they call evidence based practice, or did until the advent of the varricella vaccine. In regards to the other diseases one is better off not catching them. Chicken pox does kill I guess you could say, I'm not positive but I'd venture to say that it as a result of secondary infection, not positive but even this is in a very small minority, and it occurs mainly in adults because they were not exposed as children. I had a particularly bad episode of chicken pox at age 5, I still have scars from it and I missed about 4 weeks of school, our dic said it was worst he ever saw and I was never in danger of dying.

Claim #1: Chickenpox kids aren't isolated because evidence-based medicine
Fact-Check: True.
True, kids aren't isolated if they have chicken pox. The reason is not "evidence based" in the sense that implies that this is better for the patient or for the environment, but it is simply not feasable to quarantine any child with chicken pox because the incubation time is 14-16 days during which the child exhibits no symptoms and already is contagious!

Claim #2: Chickenpox lethality is due to secondary bacterial infection
Fact-Check: False.
The varicella zoster virus (VZV) causes encephalitis and pneumonia directly due to cytopathic effects. As such, lethality is not due to secondary bacterial infection but due to viral replication and immune response - I fail to see how this would be relevant though.

Claim #3: It is a small minority and mainly in adults
Fact-Check: Inaccurate.
Neonatal VZV-infections have a lethality of 30-35% - that is no "small" minority, but a relatively good proportion of newborn children. While it is true that lethal cases are relatively rare in childhood, the adult form is very dangerous.

 

[mafwons]

Claim #1: Chickenpox kids aren't isolated because evidence-based medicine
Fact-Check: True.
True, kids aren't isolated if they have chicken pox. The reason is not "evidence based" in the sense that implies that this is better for the patient or for the environment, but it is simply not feasable to quarantine any child with chicken pox because the incubation time is 14-16 days during which the child exhibits no symptoms and already is contagious!

Claim #2: Chickenpox lethality is due to secondary bacterial infection
Fact-Check: False.
The varicella zoster virus (VZV) causes encephalitis and pneumonia directly due to cytopathic effects. As such, lethality is not due to secondary bacterial infection but due to viral replication and immune response - I fail to see how this would be relevant though.

Claim #3: It is a small minority and mainly in adults
Fact-Check: Inaccurate.
Neonatal VZV-infections have a lethality of 30-35% - that is no "small" minority, but a relatively good proportion of newborn children. While it is true that lethal cases are relatively rare in childhood, the adult form is very dangerous.

In regards to claim #2-False, per the CDC website "Secondary infection with invasive group A streptococci may cause serious illness or death. Encephalitis is an infrequent complication of varicella (estimated 1.8 per 10, 000 cases) and may lead to seizures or coma.

Claim #3-Misleading: Neonatal VZV infections are exceedingly rare but often fatal, the most fatalities occur in those over age 30.

 

[Senator Cheese]

In regards to claim #2-False, per the CDC website "Secondary infection with invasive group A streptococci may cause serious illness or death. Encephalitis is an infrequent complication of varicella (estimated 1.8 per 10, 000 cases) and may lead to seizures or coma.

Yeah, sorry, I might not have been clear in what I was saying: lethal secondary infaction can occur, however the virus is also directly lethal without necessary secondary infections. (Unlike, for example, the HI virus where cause of death is always secondary).

Claim #3-Misleading: Neonatal VZV infections are exceedingly rare but often fatal, the most fatalities occur in those over age 30.

As with this, you fail to adress the most crucial argument of my post:

It cannot be justified that the convenience of the healthy will lead to death in the diseased (i.e. immunodeficient, pregnant, etc).

It doesn't matter how many cases there are (especially seeing as how there are -many- different disease-causing pathogens beside VZV). The fact is that the refusal to vaccinate will (statistically) result in the death of innocents.

 

[PsychoSarah]

No kidding, human rights don't extend to allowing one to endanger other lives because of faith, which is why we don't allow things such as human sacrifice, because the practice kills people.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Hey, only a FEW people will die if people don't vaccinate. No biggie! Population control, amiright?

 

[Strathos]

I have to admit, it is kind of nice to see everyone on a CF thread, regardless of religion, belief, or denomination, all show their basic decency by uniting against someone suggesting something awful.

I've only seen that happen once before, against that racist Japanese guy who suggested that all Africans should starve and succumb to diseases in the physical and life sciences forum.

 

[Nithavela]

 

[OGM]

No on the chickenpox and this is what they call evidence based practice, or did until the advent of the varricella vaccine. In regards to the other diseases one is better off not catching them. Chicken pox does kill I guess you could say, I'm not positive but I'd venture to say that it as a result of secondary infection, not positive but even this is in a very small minority, and it occurs mainly in adults because they were not exposed as children. I had a particularly bad episode of chicken pox at age 5, I still have scars from it and I missed about 4 weeks of school, our dic said it was worst he ever saw and I was never in danger of dying.

The point I was getting at is why not just give the child the vaccine? That way they can perhaps get immunity without the risk that the chickenpox party can cause.

 

[selfinflikted]

I have to admit, it is kind of nice to see everyone on a CF thread, regardless of religion, belief, or denomination, all show their basic decency by uniting against someone suggesting something awful.

Funny, I was just thinking the same thing as I was catching up on this thread. Kudos to everyone here for at least exhibiting a modicum of human decency, except this mafwons guy.

 

[selfinflikted]

The point I was getting at is why not just give the child the vaccine? That way they can perhaps get immunity without the risk that the chickenpox party can cause.

Because apparently, being a responsible adult and parent is somehow soul and freedom-crushing.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[CounselorForChrist]

Totally forgot I made this topic. 40 for vaccines, 2 against, 1 unsure. Clear results.

 

[yusufleeevans]

I lost interest after the first two sentences.

 

[Loudmouth]

The problem has gotten worse in the U.S. since the "autism-vaccine" scare of the recent past. Pockets of whooping cough has even killed a few kids. So unnecessary in this era of history.[ft/QUOTE]

13 in 2012 and yes it is a tragedy, and I risk sounding callous saying this but there is no evidence that better vaccination penetration would have helped (its currentlu estimated to be at 78%). This article has some interesting information.

Whooping Cough Outbreak: CDC Answers Your Questions | The Rundown | PBS NewsHour

Prior to vaccinations, the death rate in infants due to pertussis was quite high. Do you think it is just a coincidence that the massive reduction in deaths due to pertussis coincides with vaccination programs?

Pertussis is still a problem in areas that do not vaccinate. It still kills nearly 300,000 people a year.

Pertussis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And that is just one of the diseases that modern vaccinations cover.

 

[Skaloop]

Prior to vaccinations, the death rate in infants due to pertussis was quite high. Do you think it is just a coincidence that the massive reduction in deaths due to pertussis coincides with vaccination programs?

Pertussis is still a problem in areas that do not vaccinate. It still kills nearly 300,000 people a year.

Pertussis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And that is just one of the diseases that modern vaccinations cover.

Any idea what caused that bump in '04?

 

[Loudmouth]

Any idea what caused that bump in '04?

Jenny McCarthy.