“Death to “Self” Doctrine is Bogus Theology”???

[nobdysfool]

Death to Self, as is commonly taught, is Buddhism in western clothes.....Watchman Nee, Hobart Freeman, E.W Kenyon....

 

[Ormly]

Death to Self, as is commonly taught, is Buddhism in western clothes.....Watchman Nee, Hobart Freeman, E.W Kenyon....

. . . . .. Jesus Christ

 

[nobdysfool]

Jesus does not even belong in the same sentence with the heretics I have named, as though they taught what Jesus taught about this subject. They didn't. They taught westernized Buddhism. Jesus never taught anything remotely like that.

 

[Ormly]

Jesus does not even belong in the same sentence with the heretics I have named, as though they taught what Jesus taught about this subject. They didn't. They taught westernized Buddhism. Jesus never taught anything remotely like that.

You've been reading too many comic books.

16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
1 John 3:16 (HCSB)

13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:13 (NASB77)

What does all that mean?

And this:


23 Then He said to [them] all, “If anyone wants to come with Me, he must deny his-self, take up his cross daily, and follow Me.
24 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life because of Me will save it.
Luke 9:23-24 (HCSB) [emphasis added]

 

[Ormly]

The message of the “Way of the Cross” IS the gospel. For the New Born in Him, God will continually bring into circumstances to make us prove whether we will work out with determined concentration what He has worked in. This approach to Himself was designed by God from His beginning with Lucifer. Lucifer failed.

Adam was to enter into it as the means, by a series of moral choices, to become a divine-son, one formed out of the red clay. He failed. There was no divine life in either of the two lives at the outset of their existence.

After Adam's failure, mankind had to wait 4 thousand years for another man to come on the scene that wouldn't. Jesus revealed what the "way of the cross" was meant to accomplish in Adam and in us, i.e., the means to accomplish a Transfiguration IN/UPON man for the Father, purposed in Himself: “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Revelation 2:7 (KJV)

One thing that needs be remembered is before sin entered, the "way of the Cross" was accessible. After sin came the "way" it was closed off making the "work of the Cross" necessary for restoring man's conditional privilege of "Joint-heirship". When man views it as such he will see it as the "Pearl of Great Price", the "Treasure in the field". This revelation is given upon the new birth experience which does not necessarily happen at a confession of Christ. We may accept Christ, though that is never taught in the Bible as a means of securing the revelation of Him. With this understanding can be seen "Election" as in, He selects, He chooses, those to whom He will reveal Himself. Sanctification means a radical and absolute identification with Jesus until the springs of His life are the springs of our life. This is the process one enters when entering the "way of the Cross".

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9 (KJV)

That verse can make sense if seen in the light of the "way of the Cross". Jesus wants us to face the life of our time in the Pentecostal power of the Holy Ghost. Sinless participation can only be along that line, His.

Are we going to do it or are we going to keep preaching nothing but redemption to the same people every Sunday?
Paul is always tremendously practical, he comes right down to where we live, he says we must work out the salvation God has worked in; All power is given unto Me, said Jesus, and by the Holy Spirit’s presence we can do those things which please God—are we doing them? Are we being conformed to His Image? By the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit we can bring every thought and imagination into captivity to the obedience of Christ and can keep this body the chaste temple of the Holy Ghost —are we doing it? By the power of the Holy Spirit we can keep our communications with other people the exact expression of what God is working in us—are we doing it? The proof that we have a healthy vigorous faith is that we are expressing it in our lives, and bearing testimony with our lips as to how it came about.

The life of Jesus from Bethlehem onwards is a picture of the sanctified life, and anything that would make our souls stagnate produces a distortion.


Enter the pseudo center of the gospel, "Redemption". It has accomplished much in the purpose of getting man to fail in his calling; in causing man to embrace the minor instead of the Major in the message of Jesus Christ. Let me be clear: Redemption is the "work of the Cross" only Jesus could perform. Without it, the "way of the Cross" would remain inaccessible. He never meant for us to set up roadside stands and have "pep rallies", stopping everyone to tell them of how wonderful this Great man was who showed us the way back to God and all that He was going to do FOR US, if we can just "hang in there". That was NOT the intent of the “Word” coming in Bodily form!

This from Chambers that says much:

"Jesus Christ is the Captain of our faith; He has gained the victory, consequently for us Satan is a conquered foe. When we are sanctified and have become His brethren we are put, not in the place of the first Adam, but in the place of the last Adam, where we live by the power and might of the *faith of the Son of God. We have to get rid of the idea that because Jesus was God He could not be tempted. Almighty God cannot be tempted, however, in Jesus Christ we deal with God as man, a unique Being — God-Man. It was as Son of Man that “He fought the battle, and proved the possibility of victory.” After His Baptism, Satan, by the direct permission of the Holy Ghost, tested the faith of Jesus: “And straightway the Spirit driveth Him forth into the wilderness” (Mark 1:12). Satan broke what Adam held straight off; but he could not break what Jesus held in His person though he tested Him in every conceivable way; therefore having Himself suffered being tempted, He is able to succour them that are tempted."

* Why I prefer the KJV.

And this that confirms what I have stated above:

"When we are born again we get our first introduction into what God calls temptation. When we are sanctified we are not delivered from temptation, we are loosened into it; we are not free enough before either morally or spiritually to be tempted. Immediately we become His “brethren” we are free, and all these subtleties are at work. God does not shield any man or woman from any requirements of a full-grown man or woman. Luke 22:28 (“But ye are they which have continued with Me in My temptations”) presents Our Lord’s view of His life as Man, viz., as one of temptations, not triumphs. When we are born again the Son of God is submitted to temptations in our individual lives, are we remaining loyal to Him in His temptations in us? When temptation comes, stand absolutely true to God no matter what it costs you, and you will find the onslaught leaves you with affinities higher and purer than ever before. Temptation overcome is the transfiguration of the natural into the spiritual and the establishment of conscious affinity with the purest and best."

Death to self is what Adam was to have accomplished in him had he entered into the "way of the Cross", after which he would have had the inclination to eat of the "Tree of Life"; to finalize his Transfiguration; to become, to participate as God is, in Human Flesh.

The "Way of the Cross" is something that will always elude the understanding of most all who can't or refuse to see beyond the "Work of the Cross"; to see what else the "Work of the Cross" accomplished aside from and more than, redemption. Only the truly born again of Christ will ever see it or will ever want to.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

“Death to “Self” Doctrine is Bogus Theology”???

Is It? Jesus has this to say: “ Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he, *[Jesus], laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.”
1 John 3:16 (KJV)

And again here:

“Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? “Matthew 16:24-26 (KJV)
*[Emphasis mine]

so what is God trying to convey here then

Though being more easily understood to mean physical death as Jesus exhibited by His dying, the first passage carries a deeper implication to mean the death to our disposition in situations that clamor for self-satisfaction/gratification. For instance, if I and my friend were both hungry and there was but one meal, what should be my disposition if I say I love my neighbor as myself? Is it to be thought of as some foolishly think that if I gave up my claim to the meal for the sake of my friend that it would be an act of self-righteousness, especially if someone saw me do it; "who does he think he is"? Why that would be a prideful thing to do, some would accuse? What impoverished religious mind would want to believe that? . . Many religious who are indeed prideful and jealous that anyone would dare do what they have been rendered by their conceit incapable of doing! I believe the second passage above clears up the issue quite nicely.

Let’s transfer this over to us giving up our claim to our “Self” insofar as God would have us submit to His leadership, our lives. Do I love Him to do this? Do I even know Him to love Him to do this? Again the fool in his religion

1 cor 1:18-25 I am a fool in the world

would say that will not benefit anyone with regards to salvation and as an excuse, he uses the worn-out, oft mis-interpreted verse of scripture to make fit that says, no one is righteous and God doesn't look for us to do things for Him but for our society.

we are taught that if we consider ourselves dead to our wants and desires of the flesh .... God can work thru us! eph 3:16-20

In his fool way he would not have the scriptures be understood to mean we are to love God and desire to be a son who is pleasing to His father and this by self-renunciation.

john 13:34-35

Absence of this understanding is to have no understanding of the acts of Jesus and His teaching us the way of the cross; what it means to take up ours and follow Him.

are you like the Jones of the 70's

drink the KOOL AIDE

example of a Lord serveing the servants John 13:14-15, 1 jOHN 3:16-18

Is salvation the issue? Again, the religious fool would say, it is the only issue. Beyond that he has concluded and is really saying in his heart, "there is no God". He really doesn’t want to embrace the idea that God has an interest in our lives beyond simply giving us undeserved ‘goodies’ and by his saying of the sinners prayer ‘foolishly’ believes that we qualify to be a ruler and reigner with Christ in the next life.

mATT IS TO THE jEWS NOT THE cHURCH

He chooses to believe this because he wants God but wants to retain dominion over his "Self". In this is he not saying, 'I will have no God over me'?

romans 6-8

That is the height of presumption from ignorance from poor teaching and short-sightedness in understanding the message of the gospel that says: “And he who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;” (Rev. 2:26).

the word keepeth is to guardeth my works

Does that read like Jesus is speaking of anyone whose ambition is just making it to heaven; salvation as being more than a ‘paid up fire insurance policy’ as most in the reform thinking ignorantly believe? I emphasize reform as opposed to orthodox simply because love for another that is a visible act is most always looked upon as self-righteousness and one who does is looked upon as a ‘holier than thou’ while hiding behind their false idea of the grace of God;

self righteousness... would be romans 10:3

but the fruit of the spirit is Gal 5:22-23

believing He will let them off the hook for any willful ignorance of what it means to love God and then love your neighbor as yourself.

New commandment to love as Christ loved you.... john 13:34-35.... sacrifically, as servant

They foolishly believe that success in loving one's next door neighbor is loving God . . . which should cause someone to ask how come they don’t love their neighbor?

gal 6:10, eph 5:17-23

But that too, is dismissed as being judgmental. The whole thing becomes a convoluted mess.This brings me back to the issue of “Self”.

“Self” is the hindrance to success in Christ. Adam demonstrated this in the garden by refusing to relinquish his to the Love of God that would have accomplished His intention for humanity without the need for redemption. We can thank God that Jesus, by the “work of the cross”, has restored us to that which Adam forfeited; the privilege of becoming a son brought into Glory by the method of self-renunciation; as Oswald Chambers has it: “The giving up of my claim to my rights to myself”. Jesus taught us how it is be accomplished by His example from His earthly life.

2 cor 5:16 we can not know christ by the flesh any more...

Our success hinges on our abiding in Him. Our works will be His works. (Gal.2:20) In this, “Self’ has been, of necessity, crucified that the Life of Christ might be revealed in those who love Him and have purified their “Self”. (1 Pet.1:22). This is the reason for “Death to Self Theology. Anyone who denies this theology is a fool of the first order and has a rude awakening in store for him. If he teaches against it, he aids the enemy of our soul and should be avoided as a brother.

I am quite sure the 'Fool' will say I am wrong.

so you do believe in romans 6

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Jesus does not even belong in the same sentence with the heretics I have named, as though they taught what Jesus taught about this subject. They didn't. They taught westernized Buddhism. Jesus never taught anything remotely like that.

romans 6:11-13 Paul teaches it

 

[Ormly]

so what is God trying to convey here then 1 cor 1:18-25 I am a fool in the world we are taught that if we consider ourselves dead to our wants and desires of the flesh .... God can work thru us! eph 3:16-20 john 13:34-35 [/font][/size][/color]
are you like the Jones of the 70's

drink the KOOL AIDE

example of a Lord serveing the servants John 13:14-15, 1 jOHN 3:16-18 mATT IS TO THE jEWS NOT THE cHURCH romans 6-8 the word keepeth is to guardeth my works self righteousness... would be romans 10:3

but the fruit of the spirit is Gal 5:22-23 New commandment to love as Christ loved you.... john 13:34-35.... sacrifically, as servant gal 6:10, eph 5:17-23 2 cor 5:16 we can not know christ by the flesh any more...

so you do believe in romans 6

I will stay with my remarks and leave the rest to you.