“Church Preaching : Sunday has replaced Saturday as Holy Day(Shabbat).”---I am Angry!

ContraMundum

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Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Are the Gentiles Israel now? Are the Jews wrong to maintain a distinction from the Gentiles? Is the Church wrong to follow in their theological leading on this? (In other words, do "One Law" advocates really teach replacement theology?)
 
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ContraMundum

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When you sojourn with the Israelites... you are to observe as they do..

Ex 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

The Gentiles do not physically or spiritually sojourn with Israel in this day and age in the manner of the account in Exodus. (I'd add that most Jews think it presumptuous for Gentiles to claim that status without asking first or being received as such by Israel! Does this verse even come close to applying to modern day Gentiles?). Even those following the God of Israel today do not have that status- especially in the same manner regarding the Sabbath. Sojourning with Israel is not becoming Israel, and thus not every thing unique to Jews is expected of Gentiles (eg. circumcision for one). This has always been the understanding of both the Jews and the Church. I'm no different, and perhaps I'm too Jewish to think otherwise. Be patient with us. :)
 
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TexasBluebonnet

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The Gentiles do not physically or spiritually sojourn with Israel in this day and age in the manner of the account in Exodus. (I'd add that most Jews think it presumptuous for Gentiles to claim that status without asking first or being received as such by Israel! Does this verse even come close to applying to modern day Gentiles?). Even those following the God of Israel today do not have that status- especially in the same manner regarding the Sabbath. Sojourning with Israel is not becoming Israel, and thus not every thing unique to Jews is expected of Gentiles (eg. circumcision for one). This has always been the understanding of both the Jews and the Church. I'm no different, and perhaps I'm too Jewish to think otherwise. Be patient with us. :)

I agree. Gentiles do not become Israel or Jewish. But God doesn't have seperate rules for both of us right? I think I read that somewhere :scratch: .
 
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GuardianShua

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Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Are the Gentiles Israel now? Are the Jews wrong to maintain a distinction from the Gentiles? Is the Church wrong to follow in their theological leading on this? (In other words, do "One Law" advocates really teach replacement theology?)
The bible does not teach any kind of replacement other than a change in the covenant. It does teach that the nation is those who are truly the Sons of God, and that a Jew is not one by birth, but by election.******* Im aware of the fact that the Catholic Church also has a Saturday Sabbath. But this is what has been said in the past: "It was the Catholic church which...has transferred this rest to Sunday in remembrance of the resurrection of our Lord. Therefore the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the (Catholic) church." Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About Protestantism of Today, p. 213.

"Sunday is our mark of authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact." Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.

There are also other historical documents like these.
 
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TexasBluebonnet

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The bible does not teach any kind of replacement other than a change in the covenant. It does teach that the nation is those who are truly the Sons of God, and that a Jew is not one by birth, but by election.******* Im aware of the fact that the Catholic Church also has a Saturday Sabbath. But this is what has been said in the past: "It was the Catholic church which...has transferred this rest to Sunday in remembrance of the resurrection of our Lord. Therefore the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the (Catholic) church." Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About Protestantism of Today, p. 213.

"Sunday is our mark of authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact." Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.

There are also other historical documents like these.


The church is above the Bible? So...that's like saying that what they say is more important than what God says. That's how I read it anyway. And by the way, can someone please re-phrase that in English now? Lol. Reading it made a whooshing sound over my head. :p :D
 
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GuardianShua

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The church is above the Bible? So...that's like saying that what they say is more important than what God says. That's how I read it anyway. And by the way, can someone please re-phrase that in English now? Lol. Reading it made a whooshing sound over my head. :p :D
What that means is that they have the authority to add or remove scripture, and also interpet. For example: The adding of the trinity doctrine to the bible, or the changing of Gods commandment laws. If you compare a Protestant bible to a Catholic bible, then you will see some of the changes.
 
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visionary

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I agree. Gentiles do not become Israel or Jewish. But God doesn't have seperate rules for both of us right? I think I read that somewhere :scratch: .
Self-preservation caused the Jews to not want gentiles to be like them... but it was not so in the beginning.. nor at the time of Mount Sinai when all were told to be under one law. A nation can not have two different rules for two groups of people. When the mixed multitude came out of Egypt, they were all counted as Israel, one nation. As Yeshua would say in this instance... it was not so in the beginning, but because of the hardness of your heart.... So let us not harden our hearts to exclude the gentiles to the gift of shabbat in where lies the blessings, sanctification, and the mark and sign of His people.
 
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ContraMundum

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The church is above the Bible? So...that's like saying that what they say is more important than what God says. That's how I read it anyway. And by the way, can someone please re-phrase that in English now? Lol. Reading it made a whooshing sound over my head. :p :D

Regardless of what others will tell you, the Roman Catholic Church has never claimed the authority to overide, overule, add or take away from the Bible. The authority they claim over the church is contained to disputable matters, practices and adiaphora.

As for the number of books of the Bible, the early Christians used the same list of books as the Catholics and Orthodox use now- the same as the Jews in the diaspora. However, in those times, not all books were given the same authority (as is the case in many theologies now), and the books now called the "Apocrypha" were deemed to be inspired but to a different level when compared to the Gospels and the Torah. This is why most translations of the Bible during the Reformation kept those books within their binds. A look at confessional documents from the Reformation era will demonstrate that they were to be read in churches, but were not to be used to draw dogma from. This is, to my way of thinking, consistant with the earliest Christians.

Hope this helps.
 
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ContraMundum

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I agree. Gentiles do not become Israel or Jewish. But God doesn't have seperate rules for both of us right? I think I read that somewhere :scratch: .

Well, I would like to point out that Paul told the Gentiles not to be circumcised and supported the decision of the Jerusalem council about not binding Gentiles to the whole Torah, yet circumcised Timothy and kept Temple ritual. The looks like two practices to me. The reason being that Israel must remain distinct for a time yet. :)

This link may explain this perspective.
 
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simchat_torah

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Contra,

Regardless of what others will tell you, the Roman Catholic Church has never claimed the authority to overide, overule, add or take away from the Bible. The authority they claim over the church is contained to disputable matters, practices and adiaphora.
I would totally agree with you, but also understand that to an outsider the perception is that the "Church" has the authority to overwrite scripture. I'm not saying this is the case (in fact, I know this not to be true). It is merely a misperception by Christians from the outside looking in.

my 2 cents.
 
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simchat_torah

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But God doesn't have seperate rules for both of us right? I think I read that somewhere :scratch: .
Various mitzvot in the Torah apply to "just" the Jews, and some apply to "just" the strangers in the land, etc.
 
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simchat_torah

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The adding of the trinity doctrine to the bible...
I don't think the trinity was "added to the bible", but rather it is a particular theological interpretation of the Bible (we can debate how strongly the NT hints at it, but it was never "added" to the bible per se).
 
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simchat_torah

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My funny?

What's that mean?

Or did you mean "you're funny" ?
Eh, don't worry about it Contra. He meant you're funny, as in "you are". It was intended to be an insult, but no worries, he barely types at a 4th grade level, so sometimes its hard to understand the "insults" he slings your way.
 
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GuardianShua

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Eh, don't worry about it Contra. He meant you're funny, as in "you are". It was intended to be an insult, but no worries, he barely types at a 4th grade level, so sometimes its hard to understand the "insults" he slings your way.
Actully I don't know how to type at all. And as for my spelling, I have not done any writting in many years. And the spell checker, well, Im fortunate if it ever works. And those are my down falls in life. Sure your smart; in more ways then one.:p
 
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visionary

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Regardless of what others will tell you, the Roman Catholic Church has never claimed the authority to overide, overule, add or take away from the Bible. The authority they claim over the church is contained to disputable matters, practices and adiaphora.

As for the number of books of the Bible, the early Christians used the same list of books as the Catholics and Orthodox use now- the same as the Jews in the diaspora. However, in those times, not all books were given the same authority (as is the case in many theologies now), and the books now called the "Apocrypha" were deemed to be inspired but to a different level when compared to the Gospels and the Torah. This is why most translations of the Bible during the Reformation kept those books within their binds. A look at confessional documents from the Reformation era will demonstrate that they were to be read in churches, but were not to be used to draw dogma from. This is, to my way of thinking, consistant with the earliest Christians.

Hope this helps.
Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

2 Timothy 3:15-17 - All scripture is given by inspiration of God.


THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1811332,00.html


"Did God intend that the Bible alone should be the guide to salvation? No, because certain things in the Bible can be misunderstood, and because the Bible does not have everything God taught" - Catechism, p. 51.

"Do we get from the Bible alone all our knowledge and certainty about what God has told us? No, there is also Sacred Tradition … What is tradition? The Word of God handed on to us by the Apostles in their preaching and by their successors in the church to the present day … Do you have to believe in tradition? Yes … we are obliged to accept all the truths contained in the Bible and Tradition…" - Catechism, pp. 9,10.

"Does Jesus require us to follow the Pope in matters of religion? Yes, because obedience and loyalty to the Pope are among the chief requirements of Our Lord's plan for unity … Can the Pope make an error when teaching religion? Not when he is speaking solemnly (ex cathedra) as head of the church. Then he has that special protection from error which God gives as a spiritual safeguard for all the members of the church" - Catechism, p. 56

Page 9: Do we get from the Bible alone all our knowledge and certainty about what God has told us? No, there is also Sacred Tradition ... What is tradition? The Word of God handed on to us by the Apostles in their preaching and by their successors in the Church to the present day...

Page 51: Did God intend that the Bible alone should be the guide to salvation? No, because certain things in the Bible can be misunderstood, and because the Bible does not have everything God taught.

Page 56 - Does Jesus require us to follow the Pope in matters of religion? Yes, because obedience and loyalty to the Pope are among the chief requirements of Our Lord's plan for unity in His church - A Catechism for Adults, 1975 edition.

Isaiah 55:8,9 - Our ways are not God's ways. His ways are higher than ours as Heaven is higher than earth. Men by our own wisdom are not able to know what pleases God. We cannot invent doctrine and expect Him to be pleased.
 
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