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Tell me if I am wrong on this. In summary of parts of Chapter IX in the last post, it seems that there are two different ways of looking at the "free" in "free will." These would be: 1. Man is free to do/think whatever he wants. 2. Man is freed to do/think what is pleasing to God. Free...

I really should read Calvin directly someday. Let's see if I can put what I'm thinking into words... Before birth, some men are destined for salvation (Rom. 8:29) At and from birth, all men, including those men destined for salvation, inherit a slavery to sin (Rom. 5:19) At some point, those...

Hahaha, how does one keep track of this? I can't even begin to imagine... :D Maybe it's an unhealthy attitude, but I'm always thinking I've been sinning without even knowing it, beyond the stuff I'm sure is sin... /p

First, please don't flame me for this! If God, in His sovereignty, led our dear brother, "by the Spirit," to win Powerball, why did He need $115 (certainly more than one) worth of tickets? ;) /p

In reading this discussion (b/w Ref and Snup), it seems (and has already been said) that there is a lack of clarity on some terms. I remember there being a kind of test question called "identify." Maybe it would help for y'all to identify the following terms? Here are my petty attempts at...

I'm curious... would philosophical/theological pursuits fall outside of the "loving God with your mind" category? /p

There seems to be an assumption underlying this argument, saying: It is God's will that every creature (human) be saved (redeemed). If this were not the case, i.e. if it was not God's will for all to be saved, could you agree that only those for whom it is God's will that they be saved get...

I remember posting this section of Romans elsewhere, but I wanted to post it again, because I feel like it illustrates part of the idea of limited atonement fairly well: "But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets...

I'm curious... where does the belief come from? Or, where does knowledge and understanding come from? Didn't Plato (sorry for the extra-biblical reference) say that though the words of teaching are passed by the teacher, the understanding comes from God? Looking at it another way, if I...

By the way, for some of those questions I just asked, I have opinions, where for others, I am completely in the dark. I just hope I haven't muddied the waters! /p

I agree that faith is the gift of God, and not of ourselves.  I guess I have a few questions on this passage that I hope will help us make the argument clearer: 1) That which is "not of ourselves" is a) grace, b) faith, or 3) being saved? 2) Is the faith our faith?  or...

Outspoken, Or even better, there was John 1:44-46 :D /p p.s. nLimitedAtonementSupporters++

Hey y'all, I've really enjoyed reading this thread!  Hopefully, someday, I too will be able to express my thoughts so clearly and humbly as I've seen done here. As for church history, I read a great book a few months ago on the history of the American church.  I highly, highly...

Was it Edwards that proposed the "Will of Decree" and the ehh... what was the other will? Anyway, for me the clearest example has always been Judas. The dude, in betraying Jesus, accomplished the end that God had in mind (Jesus' death), but sinned at the same time. /p

Who wants to throw verses and interpretations back and forth about "limited" atonement and universal redemtion? Being the passive type that I am, it is an effort to force myself to first put forth an opinion or question, but here goes... What are the logical and scriptural grounds for...

yield, as in will also refrain from a rebuttal on this thread. not yield, as in yield the point at discussion...

where is the "appropriate" thread? i yield to the more experienced "veteran"

Drew, Actually, the way I wrote it, 1 and 2 are exactly the same. 1) Only some will be redeemed, and 2) Many will not be redeemed. Perhaps my English wasn't clear. As for Jesus dying for "all sins of all men," maybe I should ask you this: Did Christ die for sins, or for men? That seems...

Slow down. I did not say, "I 'believe that all men have sinned (thanks to Adam) but that redemtion (thanks to Christ) is only for some.'" I will try to do most of my thinking for myself ;) Actually, I DO agree that redemption is only for SOME and that MANY will not be redeemed (isn't that...

Andrew, aside from Jesus, yes.