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[/COLOR][/SIZE] Then that submission is categorically false. For Ambrose, when using the term, "rock" applied to Peter does not mean it in any way, shape or form as that which Rome came later to attach to it. So let Ambrose explain what he means He, then, who before was silent, to...

Originally Posted by Augustine_Was_Calvinist Now, what you have to dois blindly trust your teachers and your church to be telling you the truth, which Paul said is not a very good idea, and commended the Bereans for "searching the Scriptures daily to see if what he preached was true". And...

LOL, you know nothing of Calvinism at all. Or else you would not have made that last comment. I will tell Him what I tell Him every single day. Lord, I am a wretched sinner, born into the sin of Adam and a sinner by choice myself. I deserve nothing but the Righteous Justice of God which...

Calvin doesn't "interpret" for me. The main and plain things of the Gospel are so clear in Scripture that anyone can understand them. Now, what you have to do is blindly trust your teachers and your church to be telling you the truth, which Paul said is not a very good idea, and commended...

You also forgot to mention that Augustine said these; But whom say ye that I am? Peter answered, ‘Thou art the Christ, The Son of the living God.’ One for many gave the answer, Unity in many. Then said the Lord to him, ‘Blessed art thou, Simon Barjonas: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it...

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You keep trying to create the illusion that Augustine favored the "rock" being Peter, and you always conveniently leave out that Augustine clarified his meaning. From "Retractions", Augustine says; In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: ‘On him as on a rock...

And what you find in them is that the claims of Rome have no substantiation in history whatsoever. Rome's claims are in contradiction to history and are purely self assuming, self defining and self authenticating, which is the fatal mistake of circular reasoning and arguments. Rome says it is...

Cause the Bible tells me so.:) :wave:

Neither one of those is from the first two centuries of the Church. They are from the 5th century. Now, locate where the Apostles, or the immediate disciples of the Apostles or their predecessors in the first two centuries of the Church prayed to Mary or other dead saints or to angels and...

And that and $3.89 will get you a cup of coffee in any Starbucks in America except New Yawk city. Your liturgy does not equate to sound doctrine and practice. Your litergy is a form and style of service, and has nothing to do with sound doctrine. And what does that have to do with a false...

What part do they play then? Precisely? Originally Posted by Augustine_Was_Calvinist Origen and other of the earliest Church Fathers emphatically taught that prayer was to be to God and God only. Is that clear enough?:hug: The proof is in the pudding as they say. Making that...

Yes, thats right, when there is no reasonable answer, when there is no proof whatsoever from the witness of the early Church for the practice of praying to dead saints and angels, fall back on the old reliable answer, "it's a mystery".

Ok, then show us where any of the Apostles or the disciples of the Apostles or even the fathers of the 2nd century, other than the Gnostics, Docetists and other heretics, taught to pray to the spirits of saints who had departed from this life on earth or to angels. You say you have 2000 years...

Guess what? The Father's Will is that those whom He has given to Jesus believe and none whom He has Given to Jesus will be lost.

Origen was certainly using those examples of paganistic prayers, but you just cannot get past that seeing white because your church tells you that black is really white, when in reality it is black thing now can you. Origen not only condemns those pagan practices but condemns any that are like...

Origen and other of the earliest Church Fathers emphatically taught that prayer was to be to God and God only. Is that clear enough?:hug:

Ahhhhh, but the question is, do your works play any part in your eventual salvation?

And your works do not assist in any way in your getting into heaven?

Now that is a clear example of a Roman Catholic following the credo of Ignatius Loyola who founded the Jesuits, whom I paraphrase now, saying, "I will see white even though my eyes tell me I'm seeing black if the hierarchy of the church tells me so." TLF says; Origen says; WILL NOT PERMIT...

And you are in disagreement with the papal bull, unam sanctum and the Council of Trent which both made anyone who was not subservient to the pope of Rome, not a true Christian.