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Well firstly, thanks for all the input. I'm convinced now that there was no credible reason to invent a Trinity belief so the conclusion is that the Trinity is strongly inferred from scripture. Thanks Der Alter and others.

If the Trinity belief is incorrect, then what was the reason for inventing it? What reasons are behind the creation of a concept that is so different to the God of the Jews? Was it a single change that evolved into the Trinity or does the Trinity mimic an existing concept? Oh and I did say...

You may have exposed the possibility that you're unaware of the fact that God is the one who brings people to repentance by grace. A request for salvation is not a binding contract guaranteeing salvation for those who mouth the words. Jesus saves and if He does then the request is merely a...

I understand why you feel that way but for your own sake, please don't make statements like that. "1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known."

There is still hope for you, even if you continue to live as you know you shouldn't. God knows how to pull you back from the brink but the sinful life leaves scars on your soul and the souls of others you influence. If you belong to God then you are setting yourself up for a lot of heartache one...

:) Probably not. I have a meal to prepare (I care for an elderly relative). I have read 12:3 again so that has just caused the big "Hey there's something more to this" light to flash. I have no doubt that reading Romans 1 again prayerfully will send me in all sorts of searches in relevant other...

Well just to break with tradition (CF tradition), I will read Romans 1 and 12:3 again. We have to put truth before our zeal to win arguments :D

Is there debate about where faith comes from ?

Yes, Abraham had faith. Did Abraham get himself some faith? No, God gave him faith. God decided Abraham would be a faithful man and be saved.

If salvation was based on anything other than God's determination to save, what trait or characteristic or quality was it in the saved, that allowed their faith to be any more acceptable or effective than anyone else's.

Give us the fish Yeah the fish, the fish, the fish. Give us the fish Yeah the fish, the fish, the fish. Oi!

Regardless of your view on how we get saved, the will of one who has a new heart must be very much changed.

Wouldn't this piece of scripture apply to those already born again and relate more to sanctification than initial salvation?

Dear Myself. That post was far too emotional and the last sentence could have been taken as an insult (and it wasn't I hope). Please leave this thread now and have a soothing cup of tea.

It is not considered perfectly normal by a great many people. It is downright spooky. I have a father, a brother and a son who have died and I have never spoken to them. I've prayed a lot to God on their behalf. Just about every new age nutter out there speaks to those who have passed on.

OK. If I'm ever at the top of a mountain and a couple of Saints happen to appear, then I'll pray/speak/communicate with them. Unless of course they are scarey looking or appear with a loud noise. Then I'm outa there.

So Elijah and Moses appeared and spoke with Jesus. Jesus did not then instruct anyone to pray to them or give an indication that Elijah and Moses would be able to hear anyone (physically or spiritually) in the world who did pray to them.

Yes, I have to agree as well. I don't think praying to saints equates to worshipping saints but I think it could be a pointless exercise which has been divisive for centuries.

Cool. I've decided I don't know enough about things Catholic or Eastern Orthodox so it's going to become my new hobby (just love the Internet). My last hobby was monergism vs synergism and that just gave me an 8 month long headache.

That's pretty scarey. I've understood the Catholic point of view twice in the space of a few days. And last week I just couldn't accept the traditional Protestant commentaries on Matthew 16:18 Lucky for me that I still have decades of bias established :D