Want to hear some good preaching?

oops!

go to www.gty.org and click the "broadcast" button... good stuff!

How is a sermon on proper worship heresy hunting? What is a heresy hunter anyway? You mean someone that tests what is said against the word of God in an EXPOSITORY manner? One that sees the damage caused to unsuspecting babes in Christ by self-centered apostates (you do know that apostacy exists)?

Proverbs 4 is powerful indeed....so how does one turn his foot from evil unless instructed as to what evil looks like?

Wow, that was harsh, brother! We had all better be testing for sound doctrine. And godly men have been chosen to do the same within the Church from the beginning. If the Early Church Fathers had felt that exposing false doctrine was nothing more than venomous doubt, we'd all probably be worshipping trees or something by now. The epistles are filled with warnings.

Titus 1:5-9
For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

I've listened to John MacArthur with a discerning ear and have found him to be a solid teacher, true to the Word. He's a well-respected pastor and teacher out here in California. As far as "heresy hunters", I realize there are some folks out there who are over-the-top, but I certainly don't consider McArthur to be in that category. He's not a hateful man.

For some reason, the letter to the church in Ephesus in Revelations 2 popped into my mind and just won't go away. It illuminates the balance between exposing false teaching (which He praises, by the way) and love.

The ability to gently reprove is a tough thing to develop and takes a mature Christian with the temperament for it. I'm convinced that some of us are just not cut out for it. The Titus passage assigns this responsibility to the elders and specifically disqualifies those who are quick-tempered or argumentative (pugnacious). There is a danger in getting so tied up in reproving false doctrine that you lose your first love. That's when you've got to get down on your knees and get real humble.

4sightsounds said:

How is a sermon on proper worship heresy hunting? What is a heresy hunter anyway? You mean someone that tests what is said against the word of God in an EXPOSITORY manner? One that sees the damage caused to unsuspecting babes in Christ by self-centered apostates (you do know that apostacy exists)?

Proverbs 4 is powerful indeed....so how does one turn his foot from evil unless instructed as to what evil looks like?

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What look is talking about is websites and whole minstries who take it upon themselves to do nothing but correct everyone elses teachings.
I am very sceptical when all I hear from a preacher is condemnation and doubt. It is usually a controlling religious demon who is trying to force people to fear and doubt by intimidation.

Gently, brothers, gently!

OK, talk about being caught between a rock and a hard space. On the one hand I have someone who seems to believe the teacher in question is a Heretics Hunter and on the other hand I have someone who claims he is a heretic himself.

look, thank you for the links. I followed them and read the documents you cite. I also read all 34 pages of gty's doctrinal statement (have you? it's at http://www.gty.org/Vitals/jobs/wwt.pdf). I have also requested John's refutation of the charges made so that I can familiarize myself with his position. I am not in the habit of basing my opinion of anyone on third hand information, so a full analysis will take some time. At first brush, the argument regarding the efficacy of Christ's blood appears to me to be hair-splitting over terminology on both sides. I see nothing in GTY's doctrinal statement that is alarming in relation to this point.

As far as who John hangs out with, which essentially forms the basis of the separatist argument, unless a formal charge of heresy can be proven sufficient to my eyes against anyone on the list provided in the document you linked me to I cannot take an intractable stance on that. I certainly don't consider Billy Graham or Chuck Colson to be heretics standing outside of the grace of God, most of the others mentioned I am unfamiliar with. Separating a heretic from the Body of Christ is an exceedingly serious step to make with severe consequences to the soul in question. I hope that everyone keeps in mind that such separation is not simply a cold shoulder, to be bandied about casually, but the denial of Christ's salvation to the offender in question. Such an edict is to be applied only as a last resort to an intractably unrepentent heretic, not to a brother in error. That's a far cry from gentle reproving of false teaching. Anyone who would apply such a stigma had best be certain he was dealing with someone who was teaching a false Gospel and a false Christ - the penalty for falsely accusing someone is exceedingly harsh as well.

The article you referenced also included this statement which made me raise my eyebrows “MacArthur has now emerged as a very successful radio Bible teacher and pastors what is apparently a well-organized and large church. We are thankful for the truth he teaches, but regret the subtle influence he is having upon fundamentalism." Is he truly being condemned as a heretic or is he simply "not on our side"?

Until I have the chance to hear all sides and to compare what I hear to God's Word, I'll have to hang back. I repeat that I will not consider anyone heretical based soley on third hand accusations.

I am confused by one thing. You appear to be quite upset with John McArthur's stance on the charismatic-pentecostals denominations; however in the same breath, the Internet resource you pointed me to appears to disapprove of him for fellowshipping with Pentecostals. Can you clarify your position on this for me?

I attend a Baptist church, by the way, but I was taken somewhat aback by the language in the resource you directed me to. I must admit that the reading of it made my skin crawl - I could sense such venomous hatred toward fellow Christians as I could never find within me to condone. It nearly sounds as if everyone outside of the auspices of Fundamental Baptist circles is doomed to the flames of hell. Harsh! Again, the letter to the Ephesus in Revelation comes to mind.

Yes it does, look. I agree that stereotyping is a vile practice that basically illustrates a certain laziness. Some can't take the time to interact with people as individuals so they lump people all into one efficient little wad and slap on a label. I feel the way about the label "fundamentalist", one of the most abused words in the history of language. The meaning of the word was been so badly mangled that it doen't even have a meaning anymore. I'm to the point that when I hear someone use a label I simply remind myself that I'm not a label, so they must not be talking about me. You know what I mean?

I still haven't seen anything to indicate that McArthur denies the cleansing power of Jesus' Blood. So far I'm left with the impression that it was the separating out of the efficacies of His death and His blood for distinct purposes was what he had a problem with. So many of the disagreements I see when things drill down deep into the specifics of a doctrinal issue seem to wander off into an issue with semantics. Standing from afar you can see that the same understanding dwells in the hearts on both side, they simply can't get their language to synch up. I'm interested in getting more info on his recantation. I'll let you know when I get a reply from McArthur; in the meantime, scan through the doctrinal statement I linked you to and let me know what you think. I realize you probably won't agree with the view of spiritual gifts, but lets talk.

I'm picking up on a certain weariness in you that I sometimes feel. The Word of God seems so clear on so many important things that it gets old seeing battles raging over details that will never bear fruit. Are you OK?

Even the Baptists consider John MacArthur a heretic! Please do your own studing of God's Word, without any outside influence. Just you and God. He will show you the Truth, I promise you!!!

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Look,

A sincere thank you for posting the link. Truth be told, as I stated in another thread. I prefer to study the dead guys. Their work has stood the test of time.

If I stopped listening to every preacher that was labeled by another as a heretic, I would be listening to no one (I'm pretty close to that point now).

I will research the info you provided, because I'm curious to know.

As for outside influences (???), we all have them. In fact, the Word of God endorses it. At the end of the day, one must show himself to be approved before God, but the lack of discipleship that exists these days is the reason we have a divided body.

look said:

I apoligize, 4sightsounds...

I had thought you had received your doctrine on the "charismata" gifts from John MacArthur because you were saying the exact same things he was...I was wrong, it may be that this is the general doctrine among the Baptists, I don't know...

But, don't get me wrong, I love the Baptists and the other denominations and I generally don't disparage any of them or their beliefs, I'm not called to do that. I let the Holy Spirit do that and I try to stay out of the way...

"B", I know that you don't want to accept that we speak in tongues and I realize that it flies in the face of your convictions, but there is one thing that we have to realize, and that is this;

Philippians 2:12. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14. Do all things without murmurings and disputings(see, I can also learn from this, too...)
15. That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
16. Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

Peace and blessing to you...

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What's ironic is that I'm not baptist....I used to fellowship at a baptist assembly, but I don't any longer.

On Sunday morning, you will most likely find me at my dining room table with a handful of family members and friends looking for what God wants to say to us through his Word. Sometimes, our family will go to a friend's house and do the same. I like it that way.

My acceptance of speaking in unkown tongues really isn't the issue. If I've expressed any animosity towards any of you, I apologize. However, from where I stand, I don't see any of my posts as being beligerent. Only stating facts based on my studies. Now, we may stand on 2 different sides of the arguement, but it's never been personal for me. there's too much work to be done.

I've learned a valuable lesson, which I stated in the other thread.

Grace and peace,
B

look said:

Even the Baptists consider John MacArthur a heretic!

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Not true. As a baptist lay minister who deals with a lot of both rank and file baptists and even more baptists in ministerial positions, I can tell you that he is very popular among baptists.

The link you included in order to make it appear that "the baptists" consider him a heretic comes from David Cloud's (most baptists call him "David Clown" and don't take him very seriously) "ministry", Way of Life.

David Cloud and Way of Life are the extreme of the extreme and in no way should be taken to represent all baptists.

If anyone goes to his website and sees his rantings, they'll see what I'm talking about. David Cloud has condemned virtually everything and everyone not directly connected with Way of Life.

4sightsounds said:

oops!

go to www.gty.org and click the "broadcast" button... good stuff!

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mmm...MacAurthur.

Good stuff.

As I mentioned previously, this Baptist enjoys his preaching very much.