What do you believe regarding creation and evolution?

Which statement most accurately reflects your beliefs regarding creation & evolution?

  • God created the universe (@ 6-12 thousand years ago) and life; I totally disagree with the theory of

  • God created the universe (@ 6-12 thousand years ago) and life; I accept microevolution but otherwise

  • God created the universe (@ 14-17 billion years ago) and life; I accept microevolution but otherwise

  • God created the universe (@ 14-17 billion years ago) and life; I disagree with the part of theory of

  • God created the universe (@ 14-17 billion years ago) and life; after creating life, God used evoluti

  • God created the universe (@ 14-17 billion years ago) but not life. Life developed on our planet as s

  • There may be some creative force or intelligence that started our universe, but it is not the God of

  • Since there is no god, both the universe and life began by chance (or quantum uncertainty). I fully

  • I don't know

  • Other [If this is checked, please set out in detail what you believe]


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God is not a deciever if he told us what he did. He told us what he did and how long it took him to do so. Is that deception?

The problem it would seem to me is man's inability to comprehend God's abilities. Man is trying to bring God down to man's level.

Sorry to say but..."it ain't gonna happen"...

God put all the minerals in the earth. He put salt in the earth...salt did not need to evolve.

We are looking at things improperly. If God cares enough about us that he knows the number of hairs on our head does he not also know that we will need salt, copper, gold, oil etc.? Of course he knew this and thus he created what we would need.

Regarding light.

It existed before the stars etc. Then if there is a super nova so what? If he chooses to have such an event happen that is his choosing to show his greatness.

Just because science says it had to take x long for the light to reach us doesn't make it so. Maybe God wanted us to see the majesty of what he created and the power that he has to control everything...even a super nova.

As stated previously if science does not confirm God's word then science hasn't learned enough yet to understand how God did things.

The "evidence" of a much older universe is only man's conjecture based on man's observations. Observations that are based on man's current level of knowledge...which is foolishness to God.

When Jesus healed people he did so with the power of God. He caused blind eyes to see, mamed people to have whole limbs, paralyzed people to walk and dead people to live again.

It is nothing to God to do such things, why would it be so "difficult" for God to create a universe in a short time?

Is it too hard a task for God? I think not.

Our God is way too small if we think he could not do so.

We must not let science taint the word of God. Science is continually changing and learning. God has not change nor will he...he is constant, absolute and sure.

To doubt God's ability is foolish and harmful to our very being.

This is what I think.
 
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Arikay

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So you believe that god is not a deciever,
yet he created the earth as to appear 750,000X older than it really is (if you believe its 6000 years old). He made everything match up so that it appears that the earth is older than it is, and it appears that evolution happend when it didnt.

Many people here think that makes god a deciever.

Many people here believe that if their interpretation of the bible, does not match gods creation, it is their interpretation that is wrong, and not gods creation.
Unless of course, you hold your interpretation of the bible, higher than you do gods creation.
 
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Nathan Poe

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emjohn45 said:
God is not a deciever if he told us what he did. He told us what he did and how long it took him to do so. Is that deception?

But did He ever tell us how long ago He did it?

Besides, nobody's questioning what God could have done. God could have:

--Done it all exactly as it's described in the Book of Genesis

--Created a universe 6,000 years old that only looks and acts 14 billion.

--Made the light from the stars before the star themselves so we'd see them sooner.

--Altered, edited, abandoned, and just plain broke any or every law of nature to suit his purpose.

--Created the entire universe fully formed last Tuesday and gave us false memories to make it think it was older.

--Created the universe out of strawberry sherbert which he magically *POOF*ed into whatever other matter he wanted.

--All of the above.

So it's pointless to debate what God could have done. Let's instead look at what we think He actually did.

We have two possible ways to find this out:

1: Our own observations and study of the creation all around us, which changes and grows as we learn more,

**OR**

2: A two-thousand-year-old collection of stories, poetry, and mythology written by people who claim to have been "inspired" by God, compiled as a result of an early church vote, and passed down and interpreted for thousands of years, through a myriad of translations, into the hands of various sects and schizms, each of which claims that their interpetation is infallibly right, and all the others have it wrong?

Hmmm.... Somebody tell Monty Hall that I'll take what's behind Door #1.
 
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JohnR7

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Nathan Poe said:
1: Our own observations and study of the creation all around us, which changes and grows as we learn more,

**OR**

2: A two-thousand-year-old collection of stories, poetry, and mythology written by people who claim to have been "inspired" by God,

Your observations? By all means, share with us what you have observed.

Or are you just accepting one groups observations over another groups observations?

The group your accepting has not been tested and tried and over time has proven to be wrong and constantly needs to correct themselves.

The other group as you testify has been steadfast and consistant for 2000 years now unwavering and unchanging.
 
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JohnR7 said:
Your observations? By all means, share with us what you have observed.

Or are you just accepting one groups observations over another groups observations?

The group your accepting has not been tested and tried and over time has proven to be wrong and constantly needs to correct themselves.

The other group as you testify has been steadfast and consistant for 2000 years now unwavering and unchanging.

the first group have a flexible model that changes if the evidence shows a bit of the model to be wrong.

who are the second group? the flat earth society?
 
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JohnR7

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emjohn45 said:
God put all the minerals in the earth. He put salt in the earth...salt did not need to evolve.

We are looking at things improperly. If God cares enough about us that he knows the number of hairs on our head does he not also know that we will need salt, copper, gold, oil etc.? Of course he knew this and thus he created what we would need.

But Lot's wife did not change into a pillar of gold or copper, she became a pillar of salt.

Genesis 19:26
But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

Deut. 29:23
And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the Lord overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:

It looks like Moses puts salt in with brimstone, in that it can be a sign of the judgement of God. It is Moses that is calling our attention to the land, that was to become brimstone and salt.

What does Jesus tell us about salt?

Matthew 5:13
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Do you know why I am here? Because I am taking a teacher training class at the Bible collage. We are told that science is a excellant tool to use to get the message of Jesus across to young people.

Now, what does Science tell us about salt? They tell us that salt in the ocean must be a somewhat exact percentage for life to prosper. If you have to much salt, then the ocean will not produce life. Or if you look at the salt lake in salt lake city, the salt content is so high that the only thing that will grow in there is brine shrimp. Now that is ok, because brine shrimp is a good food sourse.

But what happens if you remove the water. We know in the Bible that water is symbolic for the word of God. Without water, all you have is salt and we use salt to put on our sidewalk here in Ohio, we trodden it underfoot, so we do not slip and fall on the snow.

So what do you think salt is symbolic of in the Bible? What do you think salt represents in the word of God?
 
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JohnR7

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Jet Black said:
the first group have a flexible model that changes if the evidence shows a bit of the model to be wrong.

who are the second group? the flat earth society?

You have it just exactly backwards. Science is the flat earth society.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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You're missing the point.
emjohn45 said:
God is not a deciever if he told us what he did. He told us what he did and how long it took him to do so. Is that deception?
It is if He makes the universe in such a way as it appears to be very old, when it is in fact young. We live in such a universe.
The problem it would seem to me is man's inability to comprehend God's abilities. Man is trying to bring God down to man's level.
Nonsense. Why would you say that? I am trying to establish how God went about His work. Nothing to do with failing to comprehend God's abilities - indeed the opposite.
Sorry to say but..."it ain't gonna happen"...

God put all the minerals in the earth. He put salt in the earth...salt did not need to evolve.
And what strange version of the theory of evolution do you know of that suggests salt did evolve? None known to science, that's for sure.
We are looking at things improperly. If God cares enough about us that he knows the number of hairs on our head does he not also know that we will need salt, copper, gold, oil etc.? Of course he knew this and thus he created what we would need.
Yes. And science is about finding out how He did so.
Regarding light.

It existed before the stars etc. Then if there is a super nova so what? If he chooses to have such an event happen that is his choosing to show his greatness.

Just because science says it had to take x long for the light to reach us doesn't make it so.
No. Careful observation, experiment and study of the real universe tells us it is so. Do you have an alternative model of fundamental constants that explains how the light really only took a few years? Remember, distant objects have been visible from earliest times. Light from the Andromeda nebula hasn't had 6,000 years to get here; it only had 2,000 years because it was observed by Babylonian astronomers millenia ago.

Actually, since it's 2 million light years away, it's had at least that long to get here. This is one of the clearest evidences going for the antiquity of the universe.
Maybe God wanted us to see the majesty of what he created and the power that he has to control everything...even a super nova.
But why do it in such a way as to make it look like the universe is very ancient if it isn't?
As stated previously if science does not confirm God's word then science hasn't learned enough yet to understand how God did things.
Or our interpretation of God's word is at fault. Like in mediaeval times when we insisted it said that the earth was the centre of the universe.
The "evidence" of a much older universe is only man's conjecture based on man's observations. Observations that are based on man's current level of knowledge...which is foolishness to God.
So science is no use. We're too stupid to know anything. [Sings]Bye, bye, computer....[/Sings]
When Jesus healed people he did so with the power of God. He caused blind eyes to see, mamed people to have whole limbs, paralyzed people to walk and dead people to live again.

It is nothing to God to do such things, why would it be so "difficult" for God to create a universe in a short time?

Is it too hard a task for God? I think not.
Who said it would be difficult? Not me! I'm amazed that the writer of Genesis had so little faith in God's power that he thought God needed six days.
Our God is way too small if we think he could not do so.
He could. But the overwhelming evidence is that He didn't. The God that is too small is the one that has to have created supernaturally to be considered the creator at all - i.e. the Creationists' God.
We must not let science taint the word of God. Science is continually changing and learning. God has not change nor will he...he is constant, absolute and sure.
Science changes as its models more and more closely correlate with reality. Anyone would think the changes in models were random. Incidently - do you think Newton's laws are still "valid"?
To doubt God's ability is foolish and harmful to our very being.
Good job that evolution doesn't do that, then, isn't it?

This is what I think.

Question is - will it change given that it's based on misconceptions about what evolution is actually about, as demonstrated above? You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.
 
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alpha_centuari said:
I could kind of parallel this story with a story of my own of how the english language was formed by papers with individual letters on them getting blown around in a room. Eventually some of the letters fell into word format. These words were verb, noun, adjective, advert, and so on.
Then more letters began to obey the previous words and formed themselves into the specific catagories. Well first, without intelligence, the not even the characters on the papers would have incured their own existance. Of course this sounds just like a rediculous story. THus you see how rediculous human evolution, well unless you want to be willingly ignorant.


I can't advise using the gradual formation of the English language as an analogy to disprove the theory of evolution. The evolution of the English language is quite complex itself and lends itself well to analogies supporting the theory of evolution. Don't go there; just say 'no'. ;)
 
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Nathan Poe

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JohnR7 said:
Your observations? By all means, share with us what you have observed.

Or are you just accepting one groups observations over another groups observations?

The group your accepting has not been tested and tried and over time has proven to be wrong and constantly needs to correct themselves.

The other group as you testify has been steadfast and consistant for 2000 years now unwavering and unchanging.

You conveneintly forgot to mention that the second group has a long history of excommunicating, persecuting, imprisoning, torturing, and setting on fire anyone who dares to try to correct them.

After the first couple of million corpses, it's no secret why they're so unwavering and unchanging.
 
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JohnR7

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Nathan Poe said:
You conveneintly forgot to mention that the second group has a long history of excommunicating, persecuting, imprisoning, torturing, and setting on fire anyone who dares to try to correct them.

After the first couple of million corpses, it's no secret why they're so unwavering and unchanging.

You guys are always getting things upside down or inside out and backwards. The church is not the one doing the persecuting, it is the one that is being persecuted. Also, you see us as being a "couple of million corpses", but I can assure, we are all alive onto God.
 
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JohnR7

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The Barbarian said:
Flat Earth Society seems to be entirely creationists.

You have failed to produce any evidence that anyone of any reputation ever believed in a Flat Earth. It is either a joke or a myth, but to date no one has establised it as a fact.

Do you want us to regard you as someone who trys to peddle myths as if they were facts?
 
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JohnR7 said:
You guys are always getting things upside down or inside out and backwards. The church is not the one doing the persecuting, it is the one that is being persecuted. Also, you see us as being a "couple of million corpses", but I can assure, we are all alive onto God.

I think history will prove you wrong. The church was responsible for the slaying of countless people because they did not agree with the biblical view of the world and dared to promote science.

You don't see many scientists going around burning religious people for their beliefs, we do however try and educate them which is a different kettle of fish all together.
 
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JohnR7 said:
You guys are always getting things upside down or inside out and backwards. The church is not the one doing the persecuting, it is the one that is being persecuted. Also, you see us as being a "couple of million corpses", but I can assure, we are all alive onto God.


No, Nathan sees us as making a couple of million people into corpses.
 
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Nathan Poe

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JohnR7 said:
You guys are always getting things upside down or inside out and backwards. The church is not the one doing the persecuting, it is the one that is being persecuted.
It is true that the lone missionary who enters a strange land uninvited and tries to convert a culture to his own way of thinking often comes to grief.

However, when the church is on its own territory, it has a lot of blood on its own hands.

Also, you see us as being a "couple of million corpses", but I can assure, we are all alive onto God.
Your talent for deliberately misinterpreting things is staggering.

Your church is not "a couple of million corpses;" the people who dared to disagree, and were murdered by your church, comprise the corpses.
 
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JohnR7

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Nathan Poe said:
However, when the church is on it's own territory, it has a lot of blood on its own hands.

That just goes to show that you do not know the difference between the dead, harlot, apostate church and the true church of Christ.

Sense you can not demonstrate to us, that you can even identify the true church of Christ, then I will assume you know nothing about it.

You do seem to know a little bit about the harlot church though.
 
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Nathan Poe

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JohnR7 said:
That just goes to show that you do not know the difference between the dead, harlot, apostate church and the true church of Christ.

Of course I know the difference. Any church which commits any act which you would consider embarassing to your faith gets labeled at the "dead, harlot, apostate church" after the fact.


Shifting the goalposts like this is how your "true chuch of Christ" maintains a perfect record.

Sense you can not demonstrate to us, that you can even identify the true church of Christ, then I will assume you know nothing about it.

Since I just did, then I will assume that I do.

You do seem to know a little bit about the harlot church though.

Enough to know that it was the first Church on the block, and that none of the "true churches of Christ" would exist without it.
 
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Mainframes said:
I think history will prove you wrong. The church was responsible for the slaying of countless people because they did not agree with the biblical view of the world and dared to promote science.

History shows us that the true followers of Jesus are non violent. The early church was beaten, myrtered, thrown to the Lions.

Whatever people your talking about, that do harm to othes, they do not represent the true church of Christ.

You can believe what you want, but if you believe that people who do harm to others are children of God, then your deceived.

We live undergrace, and people who do not understand that, do not know the Holy Spirit of Truth and Grace. They do not know the love, mercy, grace and forgivesness of God.
 
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