Is baptism necessary to be saved?

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Aug 31, 2003

aggie03 said:
Florida College didn't just post Scriptures, if that is who you are referring to Archangel. He is attempting to teach through a question and answer memo what the Scriptures plainly teach. Were you indeed referring to Florida College, or is there something that I missed?

I would also argue that there cannot be "pro and con" verses on the issue, but once harmonized and understood in their correct context, that all the Scriptures will agree. The word of God is perfect, within it there are no contradictions.

Indeed, i agree all scripture is harmonized, however, if it was in such harmony, what is the problem here then? If it was so cut and dry, then there would not be 330+ post about the issue.

Some verses appear to support baptisim, others seeem to not, so what is the true harmony that we are not getting????? We all have posted scriptures over the past two weeks since this thread has been going on. Yet we are still have gotten no where.... why is that?

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Aug 31, 2003

Florida College said:
xtxArchxAngelxtx,

Post 330 was a simple question inquiring about the language that the "tongue speaker" spoke in. Post 331 focused on Acts 8:35-39 to show that the baptism that was included in "preaching Jesus" was a baptism in water. Why don't you provide some additional insight into what your reasoning is? I'm not exactly sure which post you are referring to, or which scriptures may not have been addressed properly. Please offer more details.

FC

I wasn't talking about post 330, I was talking about the fact we have 330+ posts....

I am talking about ALL the scriptures that have been posted.

Florida College · Aug 31, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
Indeed, i agree all scripture is harmonized, however, if it was in such harmony, what is the problem here then? If it was so cut and dry, then there would not be 330+ post about the issue.

Some verses appear to support baptisim, others seeem to not, so what is the true harmony that we are not getting????? We all have posted scriptures over the past two weeks since this thread has been going on. Yet we are still have gotten no where.... why is that?

xtxArchxAngelxtx,

It is good that you agree that all scripture harmonizes. Since all scripture is given by the inspiration of God (1 Tim. 3:16), then all scripture is true. I am not convinced that not everyone views the scriptures with this understanding. Consider John 3:16. Most any bible student can look at this passage and realize the necessity of faith. The problem is when they read the word "only" or "alone" into the passage, thereby reading that we are saved by "faith alone." The passage doesn't contain the words "only" or "alone." If they are implied or inferred, then other scriptures will agree that we are saved by faith alone. The problem starts when the bible students runs into other commands that are necessary for salvation.

Jesus plainly says that faith is a necessity in John 3:16. But that is not all that he said. He also said that repentance is necessary (Luke 13:3,5),
confessing him is necessary (Matt. 10:32-33), and that baptism is necessary (Mark 16:16). Since all scripture is given by the inspiration of God, all are in harmony with truth. It is when bible students get "tunnel vision" (focusing solely on one command) that they do not obtain a clear picture of all that is required for salvation. They can be allowed to continue on this path that in not acceptable to God, or they can be admonished to obey all that is required to please God. Hopefully, we can agree that the latter is the more desirable of the two options.

Concerning the 330+ posts. Considering that a number of bible students have jointed into this discussion at different phases in the discussion, and that these students are obviously at many different levels in their spiritual development, that tells me that there is a lot of interest in this topic. What else should I conclude? Should I conclude that God is at fault in his word by not making things clearer? No, that is not a valid charge to make toward God. Or does the fault lie in the way the bible student handles the scripture? Yes, I like this answer much better. Until bible students learn that all scriptures are true, and that they are all in agreement, then the student will not be able to harmonize the meanings of various scriptures - - rather, they will cling to the passages that they like, and dismiss the ones that do not particularly suit them.

How hard is baptism to understand? Your comments seem to imply that it is so hard to understand that we should just drop it. Correct?
Consider how God views things - - including baptism.
"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ . . . not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." (Hebrews 6:1-2 NKJV) These are the "first principles" of the oracles of God" (Heb. 5:12). If the bible student cannot harmonize scripture and obey these basic commands, what will happen when the more complex issues arise?

Acts 2:38 repentance + baptism = remission of sins
How hard is that to understand?

Where do you stand on the question of baptism being necessary for salvation? :scratch:

FC

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Aug 31, 2003

Florida College said:
xtxArchxAngelxtx,

It is good that you agree that all scripture harmonizes. Since all scripture is given by the inspiration of God (1 Tim. 3:16), then all scripture is true. I am not convinced that not everyone views the scriptures with this understanding. Consider John 3:16. Most any bible student can look at this passage and realize the necessity of faith. The problem is when they read the word "only" or "alone" into the passage, thereby reading that we are saved by "faith alone." The passage doesn't contain the words "only" or "alone." If they are implied or inferred, then other scriptures will agree that we are saved by faith alone. The problem starts when the bible students runs into other commands that are necessary for salvation.

Jesus plainly says that faith is a necessity in John 3:16. But that is not all that he said. He also said that repentance is necessary (Luke 13:3,5),
confessing him is necessary (Matt. 10:32-33), and that baptism is necessary (Mark 16:16). Since all scripture is given by the inspiration of God, all are in harmony with truth. It is when bible students get "tunnel vision" (focusing solely on one command) that they do not obtain a clear picture of all that is required for salvation. They can be allowed to continue on this path that in not acceptable to God, or they can be admonished to obey all that is required to please God. Hopefully, we can agree that the latter is the more desirable of the two options.

Concerning the 330+ posts. Considering that a number of bible students have jointed into this discussion at different phases in the discussion, and that these students are obviously at many different levels in their spiritual development, that tells me that there is a lot of interest in this topic. What else should I conclude? Should I conclude that God is at fault in his word by not making things clearer? No, that is not a valid charge to make toward God. Or does the fault lie in the way the bible student handles the scripture? Yes, I like this answer much better. Until bible students learn that all scriptures are true, and that they are all in agreement, then the student will not be able to harmonize the meanings of various scriptures - - rather, they will cling to the passages that they like, and dismiss the ones that do not particularly suit them.

How hard is baptism to understand? Your comments seem to imply that it is so hard to understand that we should just drop it. Correct?
Consider how God views things - - including baptism.
"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ . . . not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." (Hebrews 6:1-2 NKJV) These are the "first principles" of the oracles of God" (Heb. 5:12). If the bible student cannot harmonize scripture and obey these basic commands, what will happen when the more complex issues arise?

Acts 2:38 repentance + baptism = remission of sins
How hard is that to understand?

Where do you stand on the question of baptism being necessary for salvation?

FC

"What else should I conclude? Should I conclude that God is at fault in his word by not making things clearer? No, that is not a valid charge to make toward God. Or does the fault lie in the way the bible student handles the scripture? Yes, I like this answer much better."

This is nothing I have not already said as well, along with the rest of your last post.

With your Acts 2:38 verse
what of Romans 10:9?
If a man confesses with his mouth and beleives in his heart that jesus Christ is Lord, HE SHALL BE SAVED.

Within context, no verse says you need baptism to be saved. even 1st peter 3:21, I hear that alot, but that is talking about noah and the flood being symbolic for baptism.

No, it is not difficult to see what the bible has to say about baptism to me. Truthfully, when I hear people say you need to be baptised to be saved, the first word that comes to mind is heresy. However, if there are this many posts, and we yet have come to a conclusion on whether or not baptism is necessary, then there is a problem, do you not agree? It has nothing to do with the bible, it has to do with us.

I was simply implying that people discover the answer themselves and let their lives parallel the bible and what it has to say... just as I did.

Jesus's blood cleanses our sins, not baptism.
Baptism is the remission of our sins for the simple fact we will then have acountability and have taken the first step of obediance to God, causing our sins to remise.

Remission of sins does not deal with salvation.

God wants us to be saved, yes, but that is not why Jesus came. Jesus came to have workers to reproduce reproducers. Hence the 12 disciples who started the churches, hence why baptism was so necessary.

I will say this is about the 3rd i have made this statement...

I accepted Christ into my heart when I was14, and reedicated when I was 15. After my rededication I started to grow spiritually and learn Gods word and acuratly handle His word.

I was batized soon after I became 18 years old, 6 months ago. I was baptized b/c I knew it was needed for me to do Gods work and to minister unto people. Jesus did the same before he went on his ministry. I felt no change and saw no change due to my baptism and still have seen no drastic changes b/c of it. I did see life changing events taking place in my life between my ages of 15 and 18. Yes I am still growing, and always will be.

Baptism has nothing to do with heaven or hell. It has to do with obediance and sprititual growth.

Florida College · Sep 1, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
"What else should I conclude? Should I conclude that God is at fault in his word by not making things clearer? No, that is not a valid charge to make toward God. Or does the fault lie in the way the bible student handles the scripture? Yes, I like this answer much better."

This is nothing I have not already said as well, along with the rest of your last post.

With your Acts 2:38 verse
what of Romans 10:9?
If a man confesses with his mouth and beleives in his heart that jesus Christ is Lord, HE SHALL BE SAVED.

First of all, Acts 2:38 is not any more my verse than Romans 10:9 is your verse. These scriptures are both a part of God's word. They are his. It is necessary to accept that both are true. Neither verse says that they are the sole steps to pleasing God. Both scriptures must be obeyed? Correct? If not, why not?

Within context, no verse says you need baptism to be saved. even 1st peter 3:21, I hear that alot, but that is talking about noah and the flood being symbolic for baptism.

Drawing from the language of the NKJV in 1 Peter 3:21, "There is also an antitype which now saves us, namely baptism." The thought is that baptism saves us. How?
Just as water (the type) saved the eight souls on the ark (vs.20), baptism (the antitype) saves us (vs.21).
Mark 16:16 "He that believes and is baptized will be saved." (belief + baptism = salvation)
Acts 22:16 "Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
Those passages all harmonize and teach that baptism is necessary for salvation.

No, it is not difficult to see what the bible has to say about baptism to me. Truthfully, when I hear people say you need to be baptised to be saved, the first word that comes to mind is heresy. However, if there are this many posts, and we yet have come to a conclusion on whether or not baptism is necessary, then there is a problem, do you not agree? It has nothing to do with the bible, it has to do with us.

Heresy??? It's one thing to make a charge. It's totally another to support it with scripture. 1 Peter 4:11 say, "If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God." I don't believe I saw any scriptural reasoning with your charge. If your insinuation is true (that baptism is not necessary for salvation), then it should only take a few post to clarify things. Correct?

I was simply implying that people discover the answer themselves and let their lives parallel the bible and what it has to say... just as I did.

Jesus's blood cleanses our sins, not baptism.
Baptism is the remission of our sins for the simple fact we will then have acountability and have taken the first step of obediance to God, causing our sins to remise.

Ephesians 1:7 "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins . . . "
How does one get into Christ to receive this blessing?
Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

Remission of sins does not deal with salvation.

What bible dictionary are you using?
Young's Analytical Concordance defines the Greek word "aphesis" (the word "remission" in Acts 2:38) as a sending away. The same Greek word is used in Matthew 26:28 ("For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.") and in Acts 10:43 ". . . whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."
I am afraid I do not see how you determined that the remission of sins does not deal with salvation. What am I missing?

God wants us to be saved, yes, but that is not why Jesus came. Jesus came to have workers to reproduce reproducers. Hence the 12 disciples who started the churches, hence why baptism was so necessary.

Really?
"For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost." Matthew 18:11
Care to explain?

I will say this is about the 3rd i have made this statement...

I accepted Christ into my heart when I was14, and reedicated when I was 15. After my rededication I started to grow spiritually and learn Gods word and acuratly handle His word.

I was batized soon after I became 18 years old, 6 months ago. I was baptized b/c I knew it was needed for me to do Gods work and to minister unto people. Jesus did the same before he went on his ministry. I felt no change and saw no change due to my baptism and still have seen no drastic changes b/c of it. I did see life changing events taking place in my life between my ages of 15 and 18. Yes I am still growing, and always will be.

Baptism has nothing to do with heaven or hell. It has to do with obediance and sprititual growth.

Romans 6:3-11 describes what happens during baptism by faith in Christ. I understand your conversion to be based on "faith only." Is that what you are saying? If so, perhaps you can show why commands such as Lk. 13:3,5 ; Matt. 10:32-33 ; and Mk. 16:16 do not have to be obeyed?

FC

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 1, 2003

I did not make my post to debate...

I did it to simply answer your question. Not to be conned into debating over Gods word. I know what I know to be true, if you disagree, thats fine with me. I ask that you feel the same cause we will not agree, not matter how many scriptures I counter with.
Goodnight FC

Florida College · Sep 1, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
I did not make my post to debate...

I did it to simply answer your question. Not to be conned into debating over Gods word. I know what I know to be true, if you disagree, thats fine with me. I ask that you feel the same cause we will not agree, not matter how many scriptures I counter with.
Goodnight FC

xtxArchxAngelxtx,

I don't recall anyone saying anything about debating. You are involved in postings that relate to bible study. As I stated earlier, it is one thing to post a charge against a scriptural teaching

, but it is quite another to show how it is wrong. You were free to share with us your opinions, but not your scriptural reasoning. Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Since you shared no scriptural foundations for your belief, what should we conclude? :help:

How can we share your faith, without the scriptural authority for it?

FC

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 1, 2003

Florida College said:
xtxArchxAngelxtx,

I don't recall anyone saying anything about debating. You are involved in postings that relate to bible study. As I stated earlier, it is one thing to post a charge against a scriptural teaching , but it is quite another to show how it is wrong. You were free to share with us your opinions, but not your scriptural reasoning. Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Since you shared no scriptural foundations for your belief, what should we conclude? How can we share your faith, without the scriptural authority for it?

FC

I have scripture for it, don't you make that accusation against me. I am not some stupid radical who just blurts things without reason.

You can conclude that I have beliefes that will not change. I was one of the main posters back in the beginning/middle of this thread, till it got no where, saw no glorification for God, so I stopped.
A bible study is done by people who are willing to accept others points of view and examine it, this thread does NOT do that.

I have been on both sides of the spectrume. If you wish to see my scriptures, you are more than likely to search back through the rest of this thread and find them. I need not to repeat myself.

Anyone can post scripture, and anyone can it make be anything you want it to be.

"How can we share your faith, without the scriptural authority for it?"

Even if I did directly show scripture (in which I an standing firm on roamns 10:9, which i said earlier) it would do no good, cause I know you are not going to change your beleifes either. So what is the point?

Its not what you say, but how, when, where, and who you say it too.

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 1, 2003

Florida College said:
xtxArchxAngelxtx,

Most any bible student can look at this passage and realize the necessity of faith. The problem is when they read the word "only" or "alone" into the passage, thereby reading that we are saved by "faith alone." The passage doesn't contain the words "only" or "alone." If they are implied or inferred, then other scriptures will agree that we are saved by faith alone. The problem starts when the bible students runs into other commands that are necessary for salvation.

Jesus plainly says that faith is a necessity in John 3:16. But that is not all that he said. He also said that repentance is necessary (Luke 13:3,5),
confessing him is necessary (Matt. 10:32-33), and that baptism is necessary (Mark 16:16). Since all scripture is given by the inspiration of God, all are in harmony with truth. It is when bible students get "tunnel vision" (focusing solely on one command) that they do not obtain a clear picture of all that is required for salvation. They can be allowed to continue on this path that in not acceptable to God, or they can be admonished to obey all that is required to please God. Hopefully, we can agree that the latter is the more desirable of the two options.

How hard is baptism to understand? Acts 2:38 repentance + baptism = remission of sins
How hard is that to understand?

Where do you stand on the question of baptism being necessary for salvation?

FC

why do you alway avoid eph 2:8
Eph 2:8 For by Grace are ye saved.......[think about that] through faith[comes from Holy Spirit]; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God.

but what about grace which is the key point

WE have talked about two different baptisms yet according to

Eph 4:4-6 there is one body [John 17:21 states this is a new thing for the Church not Israel] and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one Faith, one baptism[1cor 12:13], 6 One God and Father of all who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

it is clear you do not understand body truth [another clue?]

according to Romans 8:29 God will conform us into the image of the Son .....

right away no BUT THE H.S. seals us into Christ till 1THES 5:23

God work is to get US INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST John 6:29, 1 cor 12:13

Florida College · Sep 1, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
I have scripture for it, don't you make that accusation against me. I am not some stupid radical who just blurts things without reason.

You can conclude that I have beliefes that will not change. I was one of the main posters back in the beginning/middle of this thread, till it got no where, saw no glorification for God, so I stopped.
A bible study is done by people who are willing to accept others points of view and examine it, this thread does NOT do that.

I have been on both sides of the spectrume. If you wish to see my scriptures, you are more than likely to search back through the rest of this thread and find them. I need not to repeat myself.

Anyone can post scripture, and anyone can it make be anything you want it to be.

"How can we share your faith, without the scriptural authority for it?"

Even if I did directly show scripture (in which I an standing firm on roamns 10:9, which i said earlier) it would do no good, cause I know you are not going to change your beleifes either. So what is the point?

Its not what you say, but how, when, where, and who you say it too.

xtxArchxAngelxtx,

No one said anything about you being a stupid radical. Those are strictly your words . . . no one else's. I do not understand your rationale to make the charge of heresy. If those of us who teach the necessity of baptism for salvation under the law of Christ are truly in error, then I would think that you would be trying to reason with us from the scriptures.

Your quote: "A bible study is done by people who are willing to accept others points of view and examine it."
Response: A real bible study is based on scripture references. I understand that it has to be that way. Am I mistaken? Truthfully, just because you posted information earlier doesn't give you the liberty to make accusations and offer opinions now without scriptural support.

Your quote: "You can conclude that I have beliefes that will not change."
Response: I have concluded no such thing. What I have done is simply ask for scriptural authority for what you belief . . . and for your charges of heresy.

Your quote: "Anyone can post scripture, and anyone can it make be anything you want it to be."
Response: True, anyone can post scriptures. And if the use of them is correct and in accordance to truth, then the passages will be in agreement with other passages; if not, the scriptures will conflict with each other. Then we can rest assured that we have messed somewhere in our understanding.

Your stand is clear - - you are standing firm on Romans 10:9. That is an excellent verse - - it stresses the necessity of confessing Jesus and having faith. But is it the sole verse that discusses what we need to do to obey God? If so, then what about repentance (Lk. 13;3,5 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 17:30) and baptism (Mk 16:16 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 22:16)? Why do we not have to obey these scriptures?

Your quote: "Its not what you say, but how, when, where, and who you say it too."
Response: I gather that you don't like what I've told you. I have simply pointed out what I believe should be rather obvious to any sincere bible student. While you may be frustrated and feel insulted, the intent of bible study is to . . . well, study the bible. Without bible study that is focused on scripture . . . well, you are going to end up doing something other than studying the scripture - - sharing opinions, likes, and dislikes.

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved . . . " (Mk. 16:16).
Ooops, I'm sorry, I quoted another scripture . . . I forgot . . . you don't like that. Sorry. :prayer:

FC

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 1, 2003

Brothern

I am afriad I do not undestand what you are saying, or who too... I am guessing its me since you quoted me.

Elaborate on what you said, cause I am not following you at all.

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 1, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
why do you alway avoid eph 2:8
Eph 2:8 For by Grace are ye saved.......[think about that] through faith[comes from Holy Spirit]; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God.

but what about grace which is the key point

WE have talked about two different baptisms yet according to

Eph 4:4-6 there is one body [John 17:21 states this is a new thing for the Church not Israel] and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one Faith, one baptism[1cor 12:13], 6 One God and Father of all who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

it is clear you do not understand body truth [another clue?]

according to Romans 8:29 God will conform us into the image of the Son .....

right away no BUT THE H.S. seals us into Christ till 1THES 5:23

God work is to get US INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST John 6:29, 1 cor 12:13

Florida College · Sep 1, 2003

Brethren,

I wasn't aware anyone was avoiding Ephesians 2:8-9. Let's look at the passage.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Consider these points:

Grace has been extended to all men (Titus 2:11). But all men will not be saved (Matthew 7:13-14). Therefore, grace must not be the only factor involved in salvation. There must be other factors that have to be considered.

"For by grace [unmerited favor from God] you have been saved through faith." Faith is an essential part of salvation. Faith is an absolute necessity. Hebrews 11:6 says that without faith it, it is impossible to please Him (God). What is faith? Hebrews 11:1 says, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Romans 10:17 adds, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Faith is a conviction based on hope and evidence - - that comes from the word of God.

"Not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." Salvation comes by God's grace (unmerited favor), man does not earn it, it is a gift. The bible student should also read and consider Joshua chapter 6. God gave the Israelites the city of Jericho. Verse 2 reads, "See! I have given Jericho into your hand . . . " As you read the chapter, determine if there were any commands or requirements for the Israelites to obey in order to be given the city. There were!

"Not of works, lest anyone should boast." Salvation does not come to man by works that he can boast of - - where he thinks he has earned salvation. Does this verse mean that absolutely no works are involved in salvation? Whatever answer we offer must harmonize (or agree) with other scriptures. Matthew 7:21 says, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." We must conclude from Jesus' teaching in this verse that there are works that must be done - - those that God requires. We also have to harmonize our answer with James 2:14-26. That text clearly tells us that faith is demonstrated by works - - not by works of man (or those we could boast about) - - but by acting on what God requires of us. Verse 24 (of James 2) reads, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." If we conclude that no works are necessary, what do we do with this passage? This passage also plainly says, "A man is justified by works, not by faith only." Therefore, whatever we conclude that faith means in Eph 2:8, it must agree with James 2:24.

Here is what I conclude from Ephesians 2:8-9 . . .
We are saved by faith in God's grace. Being saved by faith means not just saying "Lord, Lord," but doing all that he requires. Faith leads one to repent of their sins (Lk.13;3,5 ; Acts 2:38), to confess Jesus (Matt. 10:32-33 ; Rom. 10:9), and to be baptized (Mk. 16:16 ; Acts 2:38). When those commands are obeyed, man has not earned a thing, he has simply obeyed God, as required in Hebrews 5:8-9.

Anyone who claims salvation by faith alone, and ignores the others commands of God necessary for salvation under the law of Christ - - repentance, confessing Jesus, and being baptized - - are doing exactly what the Lord rejects in Matt. 7:21.

I hope this helps.

FC

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 1, 2003

Florida College said:
Brethren,

I wasn't aware anyone was avoiding Ephesians 2:8-9. Let's look at the passage.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Consider these points:

Grace has been extended to all men (Titus 2:11). But all men will not be saved (Matthew 7:13-14). Therefore, grace must not be the only factor involved in salvation. There must be other factors that have to be considered.

"For by grace [unmerited favor from God] you have been saved through faith." Faith is an essential part of salvation. Faith is an absolute necessity. Hebrews 11:6 says that without faith it, it is impossible to please Him (God). What is faith? Hebrews 11:1 says, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Romans 10:17 adds, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Faith is a conviction based on hope and evidence - - that comes from the word of God.

where does one get Faith since according to Romans 3:10-11...
MAN cannot understand or seeketh God.

CLUE.....fruit from the Spirit ....Gal 5:22

[/quote]"Not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." Salvation comes by God's grace (unmerited favor), man does not earn it, it is a gift. The bible student should also read and consider Joshua chapter 6. God gave the Israelites the city of Jericho. Verse 2 reads, "See! I have given Jericho into your hand . . . " As you read the chapter, determine if there were any commands or requirements for the Israelites to obey in order to be given the city. There were!

"Not of works, lest anyone should boast." Salvation does not come to man by works that he can boast of - - where he thinks he has earned salvation. Does this verse mean that absolutely no works are involved in salvation? Whatever answer we offer must harmonize (or agree) with other scriptures. Matthew 7:21 says, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." {/quote]

You Forgot vs22 ......in thy name done many wonderful works ...yet unbelievers

Titus 3:5 Not of works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy he saved us by....the Holy spirit works
THESE GUYS WERE BELIEVERS

Maybe consider
Romans 8:29 For whom He did forenow, he also did predestinate to be comformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first born among many brethren 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom he justified, them he aslo glorified.

Job 38 .... God talking to Job after Job questions God about things happening to him

1 sam 2:6 The Lord killeth and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. 7 The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifted up. 8He raiseth up the poor out of dust, and lifted up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them

...deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

We must conclude from Jesus' teaching in this verse that there are works that must be done - - those that God requires. We also have to harmonize our answer with James 2:14-26. That text clearly tells us that faith is demonstrated by works - - not by works of man (or those we could boast about) - - but by acting on what God requires of us. Verse 24 (of James 2) reads, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."

are you ignoring Romans 4:5

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on Him that Justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness.

.........as you have said harmonize you not.........

If we conclude that no works are necessary, what do we do with this passage? This passage also plainly says, "A man is justified by works, not by faith only." Therefore, whatever we conclude that faith means in Eph 2:8, it must agree with James 2:24.

Does not God judge the Heart but man Judges the works...so

if a man is not doing what he is saying would he save anyone... no
so to be able to do God's works that according to Eph 2:10 he said that we would do before time began and according to Romans 8:29 God says that He will conform us like His Son whether right NOW or 1 Thes 5:29 he will do it according to his time.....BUT THIS DOES NOT AFFECT that Christ put us INTO CHRIST and thus He cannot deny HIMSELF since once saved GOD lives inside of us...

back on track

James 2:18 Yea if a man may say.....NOT GOD

Here is what I conclude from Ephesians 2:8-9 . . .
We are saved by faith in God's grace. Being saved by faith means not just saying "Lord, Lord," but doing all that he requires. Faith leads one to repent of their sins (Lk.13;3,5 ; Acts 2:38), to confess Jesus (Matt. 10:32-33 ; Rom. 10:9), and to be baptized (Mk. 16:16 ; Acts 2:38). When those commands are obeyed, man has not earned a thing, he has simply obeyed God, as required in Hebrews 5:8-9.

Anyone who claims salvation by faith alone, and ignores the others commands of God necessary for salvation under the law of Christ - - repentance, confessing Jesus, and being baptized - - are doing exactly what the Lord rejects in Matt. 7:21.

I hope this helps.

FC

ONCE AGAIN THE LORD LEADS AND CONFORMS US

remeber the ones in Matt 7:21-23 were they did do GOOD WORKS.. hope that isn't you at the great white throne being told those words

Romans 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one:[according to own works] 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh God.

who is none.....1COR 10:32....... the jews, nor the gentiles, nor to the church of God ....see all three groups

Florida College · Sep 1, 2003

Brethren,

Just a quick thought.
Why don't you take us through Ephesians 2:8-9?
I would like to see how you explain the verse, and then I may understand better just how I should view it.

FC

Florida College · Sep 1, 2003

Brethren,

Your quote:
are you ignoring Romans 4:5
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on Him that Justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness.

Response:
Why not teach on the verse (Rom. 4:5)?
Clue:
Look at the context. "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (vs.3) So what did Abraham's faith prompt him to do when he was given a commandment by God? hint: Look at James 2:21-23. Now, take your understanding and harmonize the verses.

major hint: Look closely at the context (of Rom 4)to determine exactly what type of works Paul is focusing on in this discussion.

FC

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 2, 2003

Florida College said:
Brethren,

Your quote:
are you ignoring Romans 4:5
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on Him that Justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness.

Response:
Why not teach on the verse (Rom. 4:5)?
Clue:
Look at the context. "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (vs.3)

Gen 15:6 is were God counted Abram to believe God

What did he believe .....vs 5 yor seed would number the stars

Romans 8:29 with in context which I written above talks about justifcation also word study have done one before?

1 sam 2:6-8 God pick and chooses not man

So what did Abraham's faith prompt him to do when he was given a commandment by God? hint: Look at James 2:21-26.

Genesis 22:2 And he said, take now thy son, thine only[special...only is not correct ,, but special is that God Chose[Gen 17:19] Isaac the son of Sarah [GEN 18:11-12]to carry on the line not other sibblings

Gen 22:3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ***, and took two of his young men with him and Isaac his son.

wher did he show that he believed Gen 22:10 when He raised his knife to kill his son James 2:21

Once again what did he Believe go thru the steps of both parts.....

Now, take your understanding and harmonize the verses.

major hint: Look closely at the context (of Rom 4)to determine exactly what type of works Paul is focusing on in this discussion.
Romans 4:20 no flesh be justified in God sight
Romans 8:29 God Justifies...how belief that the Holy Spirit works by giving Faith
FC

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 2, 2003

Florida College said:
Brethren,

Just a quick thought.
Why don't you take us through Ephesians 2:8-9?
I would like to see how you explain the verse, and then I may understand better just how I should view it.

FC

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved

[ undeserved and unmerited favor] Read .....Roman 8:29-30

through faith ....

faith by hearing verse? you know verse BUT WHERE DOES FAITH COME FROM 3RD PART OF TRINITY Gal 5:22 FRUIT FROM SPIRIT example of this happening is Acts 2:37 heared given faith[pricked in their heart/mind] in this verse believe in vs 41 then after believe got water baptised

God does all the work for are salvation

and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God:

Man cane not do this at all why Romans 3:10-11,23.....do you need more can get them Gen 6:5, gen 8:21........

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy he saved us,..........................

Florida College · Sep 2, 2003

Brethren,

Thanks for the comments about Eph. 2:8-9. While I plan to comment in more detail later, for the time being, here is what I want you to consider:

My thoughts from an earlier posting (#353) . . .
Here is what I conclude from Ephesians 2:8-9 . . .
We are saved by faith in God's grace. Being saved by faith means not just saying "Lord, Lord," but doing all that he requires. Faith leads one to repent of their sins (Lk.13;3,5 ; Acts 2:38), to confess Jesus (Matt. 10:32-33 ; Rom. 10:9), and to be baptized (Mk. 16:16 ; Acts 2:38). When those commands are obeyed, man has not earned a thing, he has simply obeyed God, as required in Hebrews 5:8-9.

It seems that you have concluded that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, and we do not have to obey the other commands of God. I cannot accept that conclusion based on the scriptures. I ask that you look at the "works" that are given in the various contexts of scripture (Rom. 2:8-9 ; James 2:14-26 ; Rom. 4:5 ; Titus 3:5 ; & others) before jumping to the conclusion that we don't have to do any works to to be saved. Jesus teaches us that we must do the Father's will (Matt. 7:21) and the Hebrew writer said that we must obey Jesus (Heb. 5:9). I sense there is a conflict of understanding here that needs to be clarified.

Acts 2:38 - - repentance + baptism = remission of sins
3,000 Jews gladly accepted the message of salvation (vs. 41). Why shouldn't our faith prompt us to follow their example?

Until later.
FC

evangelist · Sep 2, 2003

Yes , this sound like the Church of Christ's doctrine to be water baptized to be saved.

This Church stands on this doctrine and believes so strongly the onlay way for repentance is through the natural ritual of natural water baptism , but we are saved by grace with our faith, and faith is the substance of things unseen and water you can see.

We are saved not only by faith and I don`t believe faith alone can save anybody but it is a part included in the salvation message we need.

the thing that bring us into the Kingdom of God and into the real repentance is the blood of Jesus , an the spiritual birth is that which makes us God Childrens.

The water is the symbol of the spiritual birth, and in John 3 it is explained how we are born again , and the Water is the Word of God which we need to grow , it is our food, or milk bottle , and every new born baby need food either from the breast or the milk bottle and we need to be born into eating from the Word of God the truth.

Water baptism is a work and any work which is done for salvation or grace is not grace any more so we are saved by works and this is not in the will of God.
We are saved by the Mercy and free given gift of God and all we have to do is recieve the gift of salvation and follow Christ after taken this gift in love, and then we do because we love Christ not becauise we have to prove something or obey , or do commandments, we do because we love to do in returning our love back to Christ Jesus our Lord and savior who has saved us now, and we have salvation now, not on judgement day even though I don´t believe once saved always saved because anybody after being saved can jump back into the sea, as a free dumm well.

I thought I might share my two cents I hope some could open their spirits and recieve the good news.
We are saved when we confess with our hearts and mouth.
Rom10:9 try it you`ll like it praise God.

God Bless
Evangelist

Is baptism necessary to be saved?

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