Can someone please prove that Iraq was involved with al-Quida, terrorism, 9/11?

Philosoft said:

I have a better way, one that will rely solely on your own considerable intellectual honesty.

Do you really think that, when aeroz asked for substantiation of Cheney's allegations, she had in mind nearly-20-year-old cruise ship hijackers?

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Well, it appears my "considerable intellectual honesty" remains intact. I believe this question has been finally answered.


^points to Aeroz's post above

jameseb said:

Aeroz19, were you looking for any connection between Saddam and terrorism, or just Al Qaeada?

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I wasn't very clear on my questions. Sorry about that.

aeroz19 said:

I wasn't very clear on my questions. Sorry about that.

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No, not at all.....I thought it was perfectly clear in the title of your thread. No problem. I was just trying to end a minor argument on the side.

Why do I feel like I've been set up?

I read the the thread as being Al-Quaeda, Saddam and 9/11, not Saddam and any other terrorism.

ths US military has been terrorising the good people of Fallujah and Samarra. When are we going to invade the Pentagon?

FromTheAshes said:

Lots of tenuous. The Intelligence cited is the Powell intelligence, which also revealed the locations of the WMD stockpiles in Iraq. Needless to say, the source is suspect. Bush was sued for allowing 9/11 to happen. Therefore we can conclude anyone has the right to sue anyone for anything. Uh, ok. The State-run press noted that Osama could hit us anywhere at any time. All I can say is that it's a sorry state of affairs when the Iraqi government knows our security better then we do. It's amusing that so many of these terrorists went through the countries of other terror supporters like Italy. And yes, Saddam did have a history of sticking wanted terrorists in nice government funded houses that they couldn't leave. Nidal got himself riddled with bullets for trying. He was a nasty man, but he wasn't too fond of terrorists.
Speculation is amusing, ain't it? You've given us a lot of it, I admit.

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Excellent! Keep up the good work. m

Philosoft said:

Why do I feel like I've been set up?

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That wouldn't have anything to do with the $50 I just wired to Aeroz19, would it?

MaryS said:

Here are some assorted links to articles that I posted in another thread, but I guess no one noticed or even responded to....

Connect the Dots ...Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden (referenced chart)
http://www.archive-news.net/Articles/SH040923.html

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From the article:
"The US intelligence community has been squeezing bin Laden's finances steadily for several years. His personal fortune of anything up to £500m has been whittled down to single figures, although funds continue to flow into the coffers of his Al Qaeda - Arabic for "The Base" - organisation from wealthy individuals in the Middle East.


These include members of the Saudi royal family opposed to American involvement in the region and rich businessmen in the Gulf States hoping to buy themselves immunity if bin Laden's Islamic revolution ever manages to overthrow their governments."

Ok, so people from Saudi Arabia are funding Osama's operations.


"According to Middle Eastern intelligence sources, bin Laden rakes off anything up to £500m a year from his pivotal role in the drugs' trade. It is more than enough to underwrite the cost of mujahideen training camps in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Sudan and the provision of weapons for bin Laden's personal war against the US and its allies."


Why did we go to Iraq if those countries allowed training camps to the extent that they did, while Iraqi-Al-Quaeda connections are more sketchy?


"Al Qaeda's tentacles spread across Europe and the Middle East, including the United Kingdom. Up to 2000 young Muslims a year were enlisted in Britain between 1995 and 1998 to fight militant Islam's cause. They received basic survival and unarmed combat training in Britain, and were then flown to various camps in Yemen, Pakistan, and Afghanistan to be instructed in the use of firearms and explosives. A few were involved in combat in the latter stages of the Bosnian conflict."

Lets get Britain!!!!!!! (sarcastic)

Well at least we bombed them in Afghanistan. There's some consistency.

But now I am beginning to think that the logic that led us into war should be either completely abolished as ridiculous, or followed through to completion, which means attacking all or most Middle Eastern countries for their involvement with terrorism and Al-Quaeda.

Why just Iraq?


From another article in the link above:
[font=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]"He argued that the sophistication of the bomb - an estimated 272kg of high explosive shaped and placed within a metal container to channel the blast and penetrate the armoured hull of the USS Cole - suggested the involvement of a state.
"The Iraqis have wanted to be able to carry out terrorism for some time now," Mr Cannistraro said. "Their military people have had liaison with al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, and could well have supplied the training.""

[/font]Words and phrases that characterize this article are "may have," "might have," "suggested," "could have," etc. There is no evidence, just speculation. You cannot say from this article that is is true, only that it might be true.


You cannot go to war based on what might be true.


Now here is something...

From a third article:
"Saddam has a long track record of hosting terrorists and running guerrilla training camps. Khidhir Hamza, the Iraqi scientist who headed Saddam's nuclear bomb-making programme until he defected to America in 1994, said it was "highly possible" that the Iraqi regime played an indirect role in last week's attack through support and training for the hijackers.
"Saddam has an intelligence network which knows its way around the world," he said. "Nobody else in the region has such a sophisticated and well-financed network."

In a further development, Iraqi exiles have learnt from contacts in Baghdad that 58 young pilots, handpicked for their loyalty to the regime, underwent a rigorous three-month suicide mission course in 1999. The training took place at two separate airbases in Iraq."


Ok, so this establishes that Saddam is totally all for terror. Not too hard to believe. He's a terrorist himself. But does this mean he was a threat to us?


Here's why we got all fired up and rushed to war:
"Although the US is understood to have found no hard evidence linking Baghdad directly to the kamikaze attacks, hardliners in the Bush administration are pushing for Iraq to be targeted in the war on terrorism."

Creating response to rest of post...

Hello people,

Its very hard to know who is a terrorist and who is not. Well we know Osama, Saddam and even Gaddafi was once labled a terrorist supporter. But its very hard to identify their soldiers. They live amoung us and we wake up every morning as neighbours and wish each other a good morning until the day he straps bombs on himself and kills people when we reliase, Goshhh this guy was a terrorist.

If you read the link posted by Voter you will find a list of countries listed as where Al-quaida operates.Amoung them are USA and Britain two countries boasting of the highest range of high tech equipment yet they also can not find these guys till they do something.

What happened on 9/11 was the most brutal thing any man can do to another. Killing thousands coz of hatred only proves these guys are possessed by the devil. People these guys will never change and belive me its not about religion here too its just plain hatred. Its high time they come up and say whats there problem with the west.
Whats Osama's reason for hating US? He says your soldiers desecrate their holy sites in the Middle East. Trust me even if all the western armies leave the Middle East they will find a new reason to attack.

Why?? These guys are driven by an insatiable thirst for blood and destruction. That in simple words discribes the mind of a terrorist.

MaryS said:

The Iraq - Al Qaeda Connections
http://www.techcentralstation.com/092503F.html

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From article:
"An Iraqi defector to Turkey, known by his cover name as "Abu Mohammed," told Gwynne Roberts of the Sunday Times of London that he saw bin Laden's fighters in camps in Iraq in 1997. At the time, Mohammed was a colonel in Saddam's Fedayeen. He described an encounter at Salman Pak, the training facility southeast of Baghdad. At that vast compound run by Iraqi intelligence, Muslim militants trained to hijack planes with knives -- on a full-size Boeing 707. Col. Mohammed recalls his first visit to Salman Pak this way: "We were met by Colonel Jamil Kamil, the camp manager, and Major Ali Hawas. I noticed that a lot of people were queuing for food. (The major) said to me: 'You'll have nothing to do with these people. They are Osama bin Laden's group and the PKK and Mojahedin-e Khalq.'"

Needs verification.
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[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Following the defeat of the Taliban, almost two dozen bin Laden associates "converged on Baghdad and established a base of operations there," Mr. Powell told the United Nations in February 2003. From their Baghdad base, the secretary said, they supervised the movement of men, materiel and money for al Qaeda's global network. [/font]

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Did this involve Saddam?
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[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Abu Musaab al-Zarqawi oversaw an al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan, Mr. Powell told the United Nations. His specialty was poisons. Wounded in fighting with U.S. forces, he sought medical treatment in Baghdad in May 2002. When Zarqawi recovered, he restarted a training camp in northern Iraq. Zarqawi's Iraq cell was later tied to the October 2002 murder of Lawrence Foley, an official of the U.S. Agency for International Development, in Amman, Jordan. The captured assassin confessed that he received orders and funds from Zarqawi's cell in Iraq, Mr. Powell said. His accomplice escaped to Iraq.[/font]

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Ok, so there were terrorist training camps in Iraq...just like in the other Middle Eastern countries. Should we attack the entire Middle East?

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[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Mohammad Atef, the head of al Qaeda's military wing until the U.S. killed him in Afghanistan in November 2001, told a senior al Qaeda member now in U.S. custody that the terror network needed labs outside of Afghanistan to manufacture chemical weapons, Mr. Powell said. "Where did they go, where did they look?" said the secretary. "They went to Iraq."[/font]

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Ok, so the terrorists looked in Iraq for WMD. But we have no evidence that there ever was any. There is speculation that these weapons did exist and have been secretly shipped to Syria.

We don't start wars and get 1000 soldiers killed on speculation.

Where is the evidence?
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[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Abu Abdullah al-Iraqi was sent to Iraq by bin Laden to purchase poison gases several times between 1997 and 2000. He called his relationship with Saddam's regime "successful," Mr. Powell told the United Nations.[/font]

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So this terrorist probably purchased poisoned gases from Saddam.

[/font][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Mohamed Mansour Shahab, a smuggler hired by Iraq to transport weapons to bin Laden in Afghanistan, was arrested by anti-Hussein Kurdish forces in May, 2000. He later told his story to American intelligence and a reporter for the New Yorker magazine. [/font]

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This would be a serious claim if true. It needs verification.

[/font][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Documents found among the debris of the Iraqi Intelligence Center show that Baghdad funded the Allied Democratic Forces, a Ugandan terror group led by an Islamist cleric linked to bin Laden. According to a London's Daily Telegraph, the organization offered to recruit "youth to train for the jihad" at a "headquarters for international holy warrior network" to be established in Baghdad.[/font]

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So, Saddam funded groups that were ties to bin Laden. Needs verification.
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[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Mullah Melan Krekar, ran a terror group (the Ansar al-Islam) linked to both bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Mr. Krekar admitted to a Kurdish newspaper that he met bin Laden in Afghanistan and other senior al Qaeda officials. His acknowledged meetings with bin Laden go back to 1988. When he organized Ansar al Islam in 2001 to conduct suicide attacks on Americans, "three bin Laden operatives showed up with a gift of $300,000 'to undertake jihad,'" Newsday reported. Mr. Krekar is now in custody in the Netherlands. His group operated in portion of northern Iraq loyal to Saddam Hussein -- and attacked independent Kurdish groups hostile to Saddam. A spokesman for the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan told a United Press International correspondent that Mr. Krekar's group was funded by "Saddam Hussein's regime in Baghdad."[/font]

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Needs verification.

Continued...
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aeroz19 said:

From article:
"An Iraqi defector to Turkey, known by his cover name as "Abu Mohammed," told Gwynne Roberts of the Sunday Times of London that he saw bin Laden's fighters in camps in Iraq in 1997. At the time, Mohammed was a colonel in Saddam's Fedayeen. He described an encounter at Salman Pak, the training facility southeast of Baghdad. At that vast compound run by Iraqi intelligence, Muslim militants trained to hijack planes with knives -- on a full-size Boeing 707. Col. Mohammed recalls his first visit to Salman Pak this way: "We were met by Colonel Jamil Kamil, the camp manager, and Major Ali Hawas. I noticed that a lot of people were queuing for food. (The major) said to me: 'You'll have nothing to do with these people. They are Osama bin Laden's group and the PKK and Mojahedin-e Khalq.'"

Needs verification.

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Here's the verification:

Iraqi exile group fed news media false information

"WASHINGTON - The former Iraqi exile group that gave the Bush administration exaggerated and fabricated intelligence on Iraq also fed much of the same information to leading newspapers, news agencies and magazines in the United States, Britain and Australia.

A June 26, 2002, letter from the Iraqi National Congress to the Senate Appropriations Committee listed 108 articles based on information provided by the INC's Information Collection Program, a U.S.-funded effort to collect intelligence in Iraq."

Some of the information, such as the charge that Iraq ran a terrorist training camp in Salman Pak, found its way into administration statements, including a Sept. 12, 2002, White House paper...

...The CIA and the State Department had long viewed the INC as unreliable.

Some articles cited in the INC letter were based on transcripts the INC provided. An article in The Kansas City Star, for example, quoted an unidentified INC member as saying he had information that Speicher was seen alive in Baghdad in 1998.

A March 17, 2002, Sunday Times of London article on Saddam's alleged illicit weapons was based on a 3,000-page transcript of the preliminary INC debriefing of al Haideri.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/8194183.htm

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What is being recited here is information that has long been debunked now that we understand who Chalabi and his cronies such as "Abu Mohammed" and "Curveball" are. But I see it's still be sourced. My, my.

MaryS said:

Lawsuit: Iraq Involved In 9/11 Conspiracy
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/05/september11/main520874.shtml

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From article:
"Over a thousand victims and family members of those who died in the Sept. 11 attacks sued Iraq and its leader Saddam Hussein Wednesday alleging there is evidence of a conspiracy with Osama bin Laden to attack the United States.

The lawsuit alleges that Iraqi officials were aware, before Sept. 11, of plans by bin Laden to attack New York and the Pentagon.

The suit, filed Wednesday on behalf of 1,400 victims of the Sept. 11 attacks and their families, also claims Iraq sponsored terrorists for a decade to avenge its defeat in the Gulf War."

So it seems that Saddam Hussein knew about the attacks several weeks before 9/11, as he braced his army for a retaliation by the U.S. on his country.

...or was the bracing for another reason, and just a coincidence?

And yes, Saddam sponsored terror. And it might even seem that he sponsored Al-Quaeda terror camps, and maybe operations. But verification is needed for these claims.

One thing is certain, however, and that is that Saddam was gleeful that the 9-11 attacks occured. But this does not indicate that he was in collaboration with the plots.

Saddam Warned of WTC Attack Before 9/11, Praised Bin Laden Afterwards
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/3/28/85938.shtml

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From the article:
"On July 21, 2001, less than two months before 9/11, the state-controlled Iraqi newspaper Al-Nasiriya carried a column headlined "America, An Obsession Called Osama Bin Ladin." In the piece, Baath Party writer Naeem Abd Muhalhal predicted that bin Laden would attack the U.S. "with the seriousness of the Bedouin of the desert about the way he will try to bomb the Pentagon after he destroys the White House."



The same state-approved column also insisted that bin Laden "will strike America on the arm that is already hurting," and that the U.S. "will curse the memory of Frank Sinatra every time he hears his songs" - an apparent reference to the Sinatra classic "New York, New York." (Two 9/11 families were awarded over $100 million last May by U.S. District Court Judge Harold Baer based on this and other evidence that Iraq was involved in 9/11.)"

Well, it would seem that that Baath Party member knew something...something very specific. This is the best piece of evidence yet.

Clarke’s Not Blind: Even the Dems’ favorite grandstander sees the Saddam-9/11 link
http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock200403260858.asp

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Not much to say. Richard Clark agreed that Iraq was providing safe haven for terrorism, even Al-Quaeda terrorists, but he doesn't think that Saddam was collaborating with the 9/11 plots, and he doesn't think that safe haven is a cause for war.

Not saying I agree or disagree, just summarizing the link.

Doctrine1st said:

Here's the verification:

Iraqi exile group fed news media false information

"WASHINGTON - The former Iraqi exile group that gave the Bush administration exaggerated and fabricated intelligence on Iraq also fed much of the same information to leading newspapers, news agencies and magazines in the United States, Britain and Australia.

A June 26, 2002, letter from the Iraqi National Congress to the Senate Appropriations Committee listed 108 articles based on information provided by the INC's Information Collection Program, a U.S.-funded effort to collect intelligence in Iraq."

Some of the information, such as the charge that Iraq ran a terrorist training camp in Salman Pak, found its way into administration statements, including a Sept. 12, 2002, White House paper...

...The CIA and the State Department had long viewed the INC as unreliable.

Some articles cited in the INC letter were based on transcripts the INC provided. An article in The Kansas City Star, for example, quoted an unidentified INC member as saying he had information that Speicher was seen alive in Baghdad in 1998.

A March 17, 2002, Sunday Times of London article on Saddam's alleged illicit weapons was based on a 3,000-page transcript of the preliminary INC debriefing of al Haideri.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/8194183.htm

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What is being recited here is information that has long been debunked now that we understand who Chalabi and his cronies such as "Abu Mohammed" and "Curveball" are. But I see it's still be sourced. My, my.

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Amazing; the White House was using some stuff that the CIA considered unreliable to support its position.

Well, MaryS, there goes one of your most important pieces of supporting evidence. I wonder how much other evidence is false?

..it was regularly decried, @ the height of the IRA/ETA/Black September etc, how international terrorists worked, trained & planned together & how rogue states hosted training camps for all of 'em?

The build-up, both TO & SINCE 9/11, has clearly INCREASED such global conspiracies & co-operation

So has the proliferation since of mobys, laptops, shoe bombs, suicide belts, suitcase bombs, etc

Ask 1 question..

Can no TV archives show how often both Bin Liner & Dam Sad Who's Sane have called ALL muslims to jihad??

Research @ www.jpost.com & www.prophezine.com

Thank God Jesus is Lord!!!

Ian

This thread has run its course. There are multiple occurences of people flaming and belittling others.

This thread is closed for review.