Dr Dino: Can Man Tell Time?

JohnR7 · Aug 29, 2003

Often I hear about how easy it is to falsify Dr. Dino's teachings. Well, here is a artical that he wrote on time. Here is your chance to falsify Dr. Dino and prove him wrong. The artical can be found at:

http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=articles&specific=45

The name of it is: DOES GOD EXPECT MAN TO BE ABLE TO TELL TIME?

In this artical, Dr. Dino trys to show that there are many things that God does in a instant of time. For example, Jesus created wine out of water in a instant of time. Now, in the natural we all know how long it takes for nature to turn water into wine. But here Jesus accomplished that in a moment of time.

Dr. Dino's arguement of course then is: if in all these areas that he lists in the artical God does things very rapidly,that would appear to take a long amount of time in the natural. Then could God not have created a world in a very short period of time, that in the natural apart from God would have taken a very long time to create and accomplish?

Remember, this is not a place to present your theory. This is your golden opportunity to prove Dr. Dino's theory wrong.

Below I would like to add a list where he performs works over great distances being covered instantly from Heaven to earth, earth to Heaven, and different places on earth as fast as if not even bound by the speed of light:

1. Satans Fall like lightning from Heaven
2. Satan travels to and from the earth seeking whom he may devour at least at the speed of light and according to the Book of Job was able to approach Gods throne in a dialog with God)
3. Elijahs Chariot (He went to heaven and even came back from the 3rd Heaven at Mount Transfiguration, just like Paul did and we will do at the Rapture). To do this, they all have to go even farther than the ends of the first and Second Heavens)
4. Enoch Translation
5. Elijahs sacrifice consumed into Heaven
6. Sending dreams from Heaven to Joseph and Daniel
7. Theopanies of Christ (such as appearing to Abraham, Shadrack, Meshack and Abednego in the fiery furnace)
8. Sending Manna and quail from Heaven
9. Paul visiting Third Heaven and returning to earth
10. Jesus descending into the lower parts of the earth
11. Jesus Resurrection
12. Jesus instant appearance in the upper room
13. Jesus going back to Heaven and returning before Ascension
14. Philip being instantly transported in the spirit to another geographic location
15. Christs Return to the Mount of Olives (If it takes as long as the speed of light for Jesus to get to Heaven and back, we cant expect to see his return for millions of years, plus we would see him returning, but the Bible says no man knows the day or the hour (we would be able to chart his return from the Heavens...it would be hard to miss Him if he is brighter than the sun). And Paul and Elijah could not have returned to the earth again. We would still be waiting for their first return.)
16. Angels ascending and descending from Jacobs ladder
17. Star of Bethlehem (a normal star could not go west to east, then cut south for several miles. Now here is a case where God brought the whole star from the ends of Heaven...not just its light.)
18. "Suddenly a heavenly host appear at the birth of Jesus....then disappear"
19. Every prayer that every saint has ever prayed
20. The Rapture
21. Arrival of New Jerusalem

Examples of God creating things instantly or in a matter of months:
1.Plants, Animals, Adam and Eve created fully formed the same day, All Life, Speech, Global Flood, Enoch's translation, Brazen Serpent (healing reverses decay rate),
2.Clothes and sandals of Israelites in the Wilderness NOT wearing out for 40 years, (total suspension of decay rate),
3.Joshuas Battle where sun stops for 12 hours, (suspends time and decay rate for entire solar system),
4.Elijah's chariot into Heaven.
5.All of the Miracles including healings and deliverance of demons:
6.Red Sea parting,
7.other Egyptian plagues,
8.water to wine (accelerates decay rate), casting out demons, womans 12 years of bleeding stopped and her menstrual cycle restored
9.Raising the dead (reverses decay rate)
10.The Transfiguration
11.The Resurrection (demolishes decay rate)
12.Philip being Transported in the spirit
13.New Creation (being born again)
14.Glorification (at the Rapture) (demolishes decay rate)
15.New Heaven and Earth (demolishes decay rate)

So because these were all done instantaneously or very rapidly, God is deceiving us because of the apparent age they often portray? There is NO deception if God told us what he did!

Pete Harcoff · Aug 29, 2003

A couple points:

First, supernatural events are by their nature un-falsifiable, since God can do any old thing he wants (it's His nature). For example, He could have zapped my computer in existance before I bought it and I'd never know the difference.

Second, as has been said before, there is a difference between maturity and history. Creating the Earth fully-formed is one thing. Creating it with a complicated geological record spanning 4.5 billion years of history is something else entirely. Ditto with the star light thing. Creating a universe full of stars is one thing. Creating light, in transit, is something else entirely (including light from supernova, which would never have existed in the first place).

Third, if the Earth was created only 6000 years ago, but with the appearence of being 4.5 billion years ago, then of course science is going to say, "Guess what? The Earth looks 4.5 billion years old."

Basically, it comes down a philosophical position that is outside the realm of science.

Arikay · Aug 29, 2003

Not only a philosophy that is outside the realm of science, but one that some might consider heritical (is that a word?) as it says that god designed the earth to be a very complicated Lie. Not a very good position IMHO, but some seem to be ok with it.

hardinsd22 · Aug 29, 2003

Dear Pete...scientists cant prove the earth to be whatever billion years old can they...their own time theories mess it up...but natural disaster like a flood or God simply making the earth look old are much more reasonalbe...and God wasnt created...Gods pretty old...hes the beginning and end...hes just had this earth for 6000 years...hes been around for forever...so there

Pete Harcoff · Aug 29, 2003

hardinsd22 said:
Dear Pete...scientists cant prove the earth to be whatever billion years old can they...

Within the philosophical contraints of science, scientists can most certainly prove the Earth is ~4.5 billion years old.

But if you want to ignore those philosophical contraints, then you can invent any old idea you want. For example, did you know the universe was really created last Thursday by a magic elf named Iggy complete with an entire history and prefabricated memories? That's right, the Earth and universe are only three days old.

their own time theories mess it up...

Huh?

but natural disaster like a flood or God simply making the earth look old are much more reasonalbe...

Except the Earth does not contain evidence that it ever suffered such a cataclysmic flood. Unless, of course, that's part of the deception you seem to be setting up...

and God wasnt created...Gods pretty old...hes the beginning and end...hes just had this earth for 6000 years...hes been around for forever...so there

Sure, whatever rocks your world.

ThePhoenix · Aug 29, 2003

This is a theological arguement at its root. Even DrDino isn't quite miserable enough to try and pass it off as science.

And my defense below does not depend on science, though it does answer some of the questions that science raises.

Now first, he's already stated that his answer below is NON-SCIENTIFIC. So he's invalidated it. But some of these absurdities are wonderful.

This Scripture is amazing in two respects. First it has man seeing and understanding from the beginning of Creation. So there is no billions or even millions of years that the earth was here before man appears. He is here from the beginning. But this passage is significant in a second respect that "invisible" qualities are used to govern the Universe, but they are qualities that continued PAST Creation week to this day.

Col 1:16, "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and INVISIBLE, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

Once again the main principle of the Universe here is NOT visible. Christ the Invisible God holds everything together not Newton or Einsteins Laws or anyone else who ever lived.

This suggests two things. One is that god holds the universe together. This is a personal belief. But the second is great. He implies that God doesn't hold together the universe in a predictable fashion. This implication is found where he says that Newton's laws and Einstien's theory don't hold true. Since these were found through studying the natural world he postulates that God is inconsistant in his method of holding together the natural world.

Note that the above examples of the Bible recording that God moved things great distances in the twinkling of an eye are not confined to Gods initial creation but how he continued to do these things throughout Biblical history and promises to do at the end of the Present Age and will do in the Age to Come. It is amazing to me that the same Christian will passionately defend an old earth in that it took the starlight billions of light years to get here, while at the same time defend the Rapture where in a twinkling of an eye we will instantly arrive at the Third Heaven with Jesus which is even further than any star in the known and unknown Second Heaven. Isnt this is a classic case of straining at a gnat but willingly swallowing a camel?

Another attempt at rationalizing. He can't explain it using science, so he falls back on non-science, the answer that "It just happened."

Now here is a HUGE kicker, and it's hard to see it coming.

So because these were all done instantaneously or very rapidly, God is deceiving us because of the apparent age they often portray? There is NO deception if God told us what he did!

Taken with the statements preceeding it it says that God created the universe and everything in it instantly, and told us that. But where are the fossils? Genesis detailed plants, and trees, and birds, and all manner of things, all it would have taken is the line "and he created the bones in the Earth, so that man might wonder at what came before." That's all it would take. No line.

It does not sound to me like there was much of a paradise on earth going on here up to the Flood. In fact, it is implied that the ground would be better after the Flood. Perhaps the effects of the Flood. We certain would agree with Lamech today for those of us who drive cars and heat our homes with the fuel that would only be available to us if there were a global deluge which buried all of the vegetation deep underground to create oil, gas, and coal. Who knows...you may have even put a little "Harry"...a Flood victim into your last tank of gas.

ARGH! Hovind knows that such processes take millions of years. Peat is what happens if you just have decaying organic matter, and it doesn't become coal for a lot longer then 6000 years. Deliberate deception!

And next up the ending quote.

In conclusion, I think the best statement that can be made whether God expects man to be able to tell time is in Jesus Christs own words:

"When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. And in the morning, It will be foul weather today: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?" (Matthew 16:2-3)

Do you really think that Jesus was speaking about CLOCKS!

Jet Black · Aug 29, 2003

why does he keep mentioning decay rate?

anyway Hovind's argument is pointless. no-one has said that god cannot. we just say he did not.

ThePhoenix · Aug 29, 2003

Jet Black said:
why does he keep mentioning decay rate?

anyway Hovind's argument is pointless. no-one has said that god cannot. we just say he did not.

And that saying he did is inconsistant with the scriptures, which is the TRUE word of God according to the scriptures.

Jet Black · Aug 29, 2003

exactly, I think he is under the impression that stopping someone's shoes from wearing out is going to change the fine structure constant.

JohnR7 · Aug 30, 2003

ThePhoenix said:
ARGH! Hovind knows that such processes take millions of years. Peat is what happens if you just have decaying organic matter, and it doesn't become coal for a lot longer then 6000 years. Deliberate deception!

It does not take millions of years. You can turn garbage into oil in hours of time.

Jet Black · Aug 30, 2003

natural processes john, natural processes.

JohnR7 · Aug 30, 2003

Pete Harcoff said:
Within the philosophical contraints of science, scientists can most certainly prove the Earth is ~4.5 billion years old.

Yes, if "contraints" means that you assume that their assumptions are based on fact and not fiction or creative writting. ie. (imagination)

Jet Black · Aug 30, 2003

you clearly don't understand what pete just said john.

JohnR7 · Aug 30, 2003

Jet Black said:
you clearly don't understand what pete just said john.

It does not matter, the point of the thread is that one of the most common things I hear on here is how easy it is to falsify Dr. Dino. So here is everyone's chance to falsify one of the articals on his site.

obediah001 · Aug 30, 2003

There is not even the remorest of remote chance's that the Evolutionists can PROVethe earth is any age let alone 4.5 billions of years old. For heavens sake they themselves have changed their own estimates & theories somany times it is an absolute absurdity to put any credibility in their abilities to do anything but imagine another tall tale of one sort or another.

obediah001 · Aug 30, 2003

Did U hear that dwebate last nite? Hovind just blew them right out of thewater!

Jet Black · Aug 30, 2003

ok.

lets have a look at polystrate fossils:

they are a well understood geological phenomenon, which I am not going to outline right now:

http://drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=articles&specific=16

ok, he suggests that polystrate fossils are a result of noah's flood. However this is ludicrous, because the 2nd picture outlines a 27 layer polystrate fossil layer, meaning that 27 generations of trees would have had to grow, in less than a year, while several kilometres underwater and being simultaneously compacted into sedimentary rock.

obediah001 · Aug 30, 2003

You is silly. Them trees are standing thru multiple layers of stata which PROVES they did not grow thru them & that it did not take millions of years to form the strata. The flood did it!!

Jet Black · Aug 30, 2003

how do you suppose that they crew in multiple layers though? they would have had to be under several miles of water, and growing extremely quickly, then dying extremely quickly before another tree germinated, grew extremely quickly and died extremelz quickly, and another, and another. and so on. there are 27 layers there.... lets say 24, that is 2 layers per month, or one every 2 weeks. are you telling me that trees can grow from seeds to full sized trees in under 2 weeks, while under 5 miles of water at the same time as millions of sand is pouring down on them, in the greatest deluge known to mankind?

Jet Black · Aug 30, 2003

say each tree was 28 feet high, that is a growth rate of 2 feet per day. not even bamboo grows that quickly.

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